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 Frazzled wrote:
So now you want NATO?

Actually, I do not really care about NATO. I just mentioned you misrepresented what I wrote. I never wrote I wanted it removed. I mean, certainly you need our protection .
You are still refusing to answer any question.
Did you noticed the edit?

Frazzled stop being a texas wiener.

Did I noticed the edit? What edit?

Restate your direct question, but bear in mind you've already stated opinions about the US efforts in regard to NATO during the Cold War. Good people died in that cause.

That part:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And just to clarify: it was on Dakka that I, literally for the first time, heard about how apparently some U.S. citizen believe that NATO is the only reason Russia is not invading Western Europe, and how Western Europeans were parasites that sucks the sweet U.S. military expenditure while giving nothing in return. That is some opinion I had never been exposed to before, and that I have still never been exposed to anywhere else. So, yeah, I would be genuinely interested in learning more about this idea. Because believe it or not, it has never ever been discussed, or even mentioned, in French media that I know of.

The questions are the sentence ending with an interrogation mark. Those: “Do you really believe that NATO is the only thing preventing Russia from invading Western European countries? Then why are they not invading all those countries outside of NATO with military spending that are way lower than those of France, Germany or the UK?”
Because even though I have never heard anyone questioning our commitment to NATO, I have never heard anyone seemingly believing that it was currently helpful. As far as I know, I have not met any French expressing a different idea on it than “This is something that was useful in the past and may be useful in some hypothetic future, we feel relatively close to other members of NATO in term of culture and values, so it makes sense to be allied to them”. Never “This is a fundamental part of our survival”. Maybe very rarely “The U.S. are bad guys/bullies, we should get out of NATO”.
Actually we do not speak of NATO much, but this goes along the perception of it I mentioned.

I don't think Frnace was originally in NATO. EDIT I was incorrect-they pulled out in 1966 but rejoined joint command in 2009.

Do I think NATO is the only thing protecting Western Europe from RUssia?
Now - no. They have no interest.
Then-you betcha beanie.

Eastern European NATO members... thats a different story. If I were them I wouldn't plan on NATO actually doing anything unless Russia just goes balls to the wall and invades all out. If they do it piecemeal over a year, its all over for you.

Except freaking Poland. Da Poles aint gonna take no crap no more...

PhantomViper wrote:


Even if he did, the Russian "army" can barely deal with a bunch of armed civilians, they would get their asses kicked if they ever tried to fight any modern military force. And that is assuming that they could even drive their tanks 100 miles west before they all broke down!

That statement reminds me of a quote made in a similar vein about the Soviets a while back. It went something along the lines of 'kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.'

Specifically, it was a comment made by Hitler on the eve of the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany. At the time the Soviets had an army that had a year or two previously had great difficulty in beating a heavily outnumbered and outgunned Finland and had also been crippled by the execution and removal of many senior officers.

Remind me again how that turned out?

Whilst I don't think the Russians are up to the standards of the US/UK or comparable professional Western militaries, they are a damn sight better than they were ten years ago. The Russian military does recognise it's weaknesses and is making a determined effort to overcome them, and they appear to have the backing of the Russian government who are putting their money where their collective mouth is.

Compare that to quite a few Western countries who make grand pronouncements of how their forces are adapting to dominate future battlefields and yet consistently fail to fund or staff such efforts. Let's not get cocky or it might come back to haunt us.....

 Frazzled wrote:
Do I think NATO is the only thing protecting Western Europe from RUssia?
Now - no. They have no interest.

So, why the whole “If we withdraw, good luck dealing with Russia”? I mean, I saw it wrote basically that way in here.
I agree about then, but then is a completely different question. The world has changed quite a lot.

OK gotcha my intent is not that. I'm saying lets get out of NATO. You guys can handle it. You don't need us any more.

Oh. Okay. I remember a comic posted in here that was really implying that if the U.S. were to stop protecting Western Europe, we would be instantly threatened by Russia. I thought you share that idea.

Well countries threaten all the time. Meh, when you have nukes you (like France and the UK) you just smile politely.

I find it funny "Cold War" is in play now after Romney got blasted in a debate by Obama saying the Cold War is over. Someone should have mention that to Putin. Or press the "Reset" button...

 Jihadin wrote:
I find it funny "Cold War" is in play now after Romney got blasted in a debate by Obama saying the Cold War is over. Someone should have mention that to Putin. Or press the "Reset" button...

You forgot this Jihadin:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I have always wondered where this strange idea U.S. people have that we would be invaded by Russia if they stopped protecting us come from. Do you really think that Russia would invade a nuclear power? Did you even noticed all the countries there are between, say, Germany and Russia? That is a completely unrealistic idea.

You're under 18 aren't you. Thats so cute.

Thats kind of the point, its not the Cold War anymore. Russia doesnt have the manpower or military capability to take and hold the half dozen or so nation-states and millions of square miles of land in between it and Germany.

Why would Russia even want to invade Gemany?

Oktoberfest of course silly.

But they only have soft drinks there. A true Russian would never drink something that contains less than 40% alcohol.

That'd explain the brain damage then.

Wait..we really can't say anything because we had SOMEONE on here that post on a daily basis of drinking rubbing alcohol

Well, when countries like Germany look east and have this to look forward to, it's kind of hard to NOT justify "packing it in"

I feel kind of bad for Germany. Because of WW2 they've basically been bullied into being ashamed for their entire past.

There's a theory among leftist German academics called "sonderweg". It used to be a nationalist word about Germany's special path but now its been corrupted into "everything leads to nazis". Basically these people think that everything about German history and culture led them to the nazis and the holocaust.

Frederick the Great? Nazis.
Gutenberg? Nazis.
Martin Luther? Nazis.
Willhelm II's progressive reforms? Nazis.
Bismarck? Nazis.

You get the idea. I think the notion is ludicrous, and I think we all need to get over WW2 and let the germans be proud of themselves for something besides beer.

 EmilCrane wrote:
I feel kind of bad for Germany. Because of WW2 they've basically been bullied into being ashamed for their entire past.

Still better than Japan's way .

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I have always wondered where this strange idea U.S. people have that we would be invaded by Russia if they stopped protecting us come from. Do you really think that Russia would invade a nuclear power? Did you even noticed all the countries there are between, say, Germany and Russia? That is a completely unrealistic idea.

You're under 18 aren't you. Thats so cute.

Thats kind of the point, its not the Cold War anymore. Russia doesnt have the manpower or military capability to take and hold the half dozen or so nation-states and millions of square miles of land in between it and Germany.

Why would Russia even want to invade Gemany?

Oktoberfest of course silly.

But they only have soft drinks there. A true Russian would never drink something that contains less than 40% alcohol.

dude its all about the beer

Jebus...German politics went nuts since I left there in '02

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I feel kind of bad for Germany. Because of WW2 they've basically been bullied into being ashamed for their entire past.

Still better than Japan's way .

In Japan everything was swept under the rug in the name of the cold war and now they're well on the way to being a military power in the Asia-Pacific region.

Well. Japan is one huge Aircraft Carrier in that region

 Jihadin wrote:
Well. Japan is one huge Aircraft Carrier in that region

True, its strategic position is invaluable in the region. But the big thing was that during the korean war the US military kinda forgot that when you go the war you don't just need guns and ammo, you also need food, water, socks, spare tires, shirts and all the other minor logistical stuff. So Japan got a huge economic boost from procurement. During that time many of the administrators and officials who held positions of power during the Imperial Era got their old jobs back because it was either them or commies.

 EmilCrane wrote:

You get the idea. I think the notion is ludicrous, and I think we all need to get over WW2 and let the germans be proud of themselves for something besides beer.

Bayern Munchen... and the Deutsche Fusball team (or whatever the hell they call the national team )

NATO exist's not to stop the russian hordes but to simply stop europeans attacking each other.

Although if the US completely withrew all overseas military commitments and disolved NATO i could see the USA saving a hell of alot of money. although some countries would probably cease to exist without american insurance

Israel
South korea
Taiwan

just to name a few

Also the arguement that the world is too interconnected and reliant on trade that a large scale war could break out is moot. One of the leading arguements before the break out of the first world war, was that the worlds econmies were too reliant on one another and no one would be stupid enough to fight due to the economic devestation

we all know now how that turned out.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I feel kind of bad for Germany. Because of WW2 they've basically been bullied into being ashamed for their entire past.

Still better than Japan's way .

In Japan everything was swept under the rug in the name of the cold war and now they're well on the way to being a military power in the Asia-Pacific region.

Allow me to laugh at this EmilCrane. With 12 defense ministers in the last 8 years (one lasted 54 days!!) plus tales of graft and corruption in the Defense Department that would put Chicago to shame Japan might look like a military power but it's very far from being one no matter how much PM Abe wants to emulate grandaddy's career.

M.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
although some countries would probably cease to exist without american insurance

Israel
South korea
Taiwan

I am not so sure about Israel and South Korea. They both have decent armies, and Israel have nuclear weapons.

Both heavily funded and supplied by the US. The real threat is american retaliation.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I feel kind of bad for Germany. Because of WW2 they've basically been bullied into being ashamed for their entire past.

Still better than Japan's way .

In Japan everything was swept under the rug in the name of the cold war and now they're well on the way to being a military power in the Asia-Pacific region.

Allow me to laugh at this EmilCrane. With 12 defense ministers in the last 8 years (one lasted 54 days!!) plus tales of graft and corruption in the Defense Department that would put Chicago to shame Japan might look like a military power but it's very far from being one no matter how much PM Abe wants to emulate grandaddy's career.

M.

Fair enough, Japan looks strong on paper at least.

Military capability is overrated in this day and age.

All you have to do is draw a red line