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 Weazel wrote:

I'll re-iterate: I think the Stormwolf can be wonderful, but just don't expect too much from it and against certain matchups it can prove to be near useless or at the very least subpar.

One last time: you have no fething idea.
The stormwolf obliterates anything in an Eldar army without much fear of return fire.


I play Eldar, I know my army a lot more than you know yours (from your own admission, you have only had a few bad runs with the StormPlanes), and I tell you: that StormWolf is a priority target, it being combined with other strong targets like TWC or IK means extremely hard target priority issues.


Against a player who only has TWC, you can clean the TWC in time before they connect.

Against a player who only has two StormWolves, you have a chance to kill them both before they've made back their points.

Against a player who has both ? you're in big trouble. You'll have to have a lucky invisible WraithKnight to hold the TWC while you shoot the StormWolves, play incredibly well with the DAs and second WK to handle the other TWC unit, and you may not be able to prevent the StormWolves from hitting the one spot that makes the whole thing fall apart.

Morgoth, there's no call for personal attacks on the person behind the argument you're disagreeing with.

Weazel,

I myself am an Eldar player. I won't blow my own horn (too much), but I consider myself a decent player with a long wargaming career. And when I tell you that AV12 fliers are seriously hard to kill for any Eldar list (even AV11 can be a challenge if there's 2 or 3, especially since they're usually really cheap). Stormwolf is even worse because its firepower can be quite dangerous. Even when jinking it can still pose a threat (TL on everything is so sweet, as any Eldar player can tell ya ). Best solution would be just ignoring it, focusing on ground stuff that you know you can reliably put the hurt on. This is where you're actually quite right, in that it's not so dangerous you MUST kill it right away, but it's a big nuisance all the same. Of course, this means that the Eldar player, rather than trusting his own luck, trying unreliably wrecking a flier, is playing it safe and leaving it up to the other player to prove Stormwolf (or any other unit fitting in the "nuisance" category, like a Wraightknight, for example) is indeed worth it. Because then it has to pay its points back, since it's not earning them by distracting your opponent.

Funnily enough it was only in the Eldar game that the Stormwolf paid itself back (mainly because I caught a Swooping Hawk squad by surprise with a Helfrost blast), so I don't know why we got stuck on that. Other lists were much more deadly against it.

A single unit of TWC + HQ should be dead by turn 3 in any decent Eldar list, which means the Stormwolf is not too far behind in the kill list. TWC is pretty lackluster against tank heavy lists mainly because once you pop that tank in melee you're stuck where you're at and will face swift retaliation. TWC are only T5 3+ models so hardly invincible by any measure. I much rather face lists with strong infantry/bike/MC presence.

I just cannot kill Wave Serpents for the death of me unless they make a mistake and I can catch them in CC. Stormwolf has 4 shots, you'll probably hit with everything and score 3 pens/glans which means on average that's one HP off. I don't consider that impressive and as an Eldar player I wouldn't probably be too worried.

But overall TWC are super strong and every serious list has to have at least one unit, preferably more to add to target saturation. Stormwolf is situational and depends on the opponent and your rolling luck.

And @morgoth I've been playing Wolves since 1993 and just won a local tournament so I'd consider myself at least a decent player. Take your flames elsewhere since you're unable to burn me.

 Araenion wrote:
Morgoth, there's no call for personal attacks on the person behind the argument you're disagreeing with.

My bad. I did not see that as a personal attack.

Sorry Weazel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:
Funnily enough it was only in the Eldar game that the Stormwolf paid itself back (mainly because I caught a Swooping Hawk squad by surprise with a Helfrost blast), so I don't know why we got stuck on that. Other lists were much more deadly against it.

A single unit of TWC + HQ should be dead by turn 3 in any decent Eldar list, which means the Stormwolf is not too far behind in the kill list. TWC is pretty lackluster against tank heavy lists mainly because once you pop that tank in melee you're stuck where you're at and will face swift retaliation. TWC are only T5 3+ models so hardly invincible by any measure. I much rather face lists with strong infantry/bike/MC presence.

I just cannot kill Wave Serpents for the death of me unless they make a mistake and I can catch them in CC. Stormwolf has 4 shots, you'll probably hit with everything and score 3 pens/glans which means on average that's one HP off. I don't consider that impressive and as an Eldar player I wouldn't probably be too worried.

But overall TWC are super strong and every serious list has to have at least one unit, preferably more to add to target saturation. Stormwolf is situational and depends on the opponent and your rolling luck.

And @morgoth I've been playing Wolves since 1993 and just won a local tournament so I'd consider myself at least a decent player. Take your flames elsewhere since you're unable to burn me.

A single unit of TWC + HQ should be in assault by turn 2 in any decent SW list.
TWC can multi charge 2 or 3 tanks and reliably wreck 2 in the process.

@Weazel, I think your past experiences are weighing a lot on how you see the current codex and its units, which I believe to be strong in the current game and meta.

Shooting with a StormWolf means your opponent has to Jink if not in cover, which is unlikely against a flyer, meaning you make his WS useless for 3 turns, then make it explode in one to three turns at most.
It has a lot of tactical options, as you noted with the Swooping Hawks, is still hard to hit, really hard to take down with a TAC list, ...

Well, I like having a strong infantry element in drop pods, supported by TWC with a 2+/3++ HQ, plus Ulrik and a Wolf Standard in a Stormwolf. Might not sound overly strong, but it has a few synergy based tricks up its sleeve.

Honestly, I think a unit of TWC and a Stormwolf are an amazing combo.

I'm considering going to two units of T-wolves, one minimum with a Strength 10 and a couple shields, and the other minimum with a couple shields and an Iron Priest out front, with the plane and a squad of CML speeders gliding around from afar. I'm hoping, combined with my crazy Bunker idea, that the enemy is under a lot of pressure for the early game.

I agree, you need to run a unit of each, or else space wolves aren't bringing anything novel to the field, and I don't think that speaks to the mediocrity of SW, but rather the real strength of chapter tactics within C:SM.

Is it really better to run minimum units ?

Having played against them the 5 Wolves unit seemed a lot better.

They definitely are. In my case, though, I want to spread out the targets more so there are multiple strength 10 threats, and I don't have the points to spare on filling up the units.

I find that having just one unit gets focused on a LOT. T-wolves reputation is severe from the Internet Echo Chamber, people are very afraid of them. With two units I can spread out and try to avoid being shredded to nothing early on.

The positive side of a balanced list is that not even lists like Serpent spam or Riptide spam can handle 30 marines, plus 5, or 6 TWC, plus a Stormwolf or two. All those OBS units that really don't pose such a threat that you can postpone pouring shots into charging TWC, you end up winning the game just by distraction. Honestly, this game changed so much in the past two editions. With TAC lists being largerly a thing of the past, it's become much more of a mind game, due to overwhelming power of some builds, they can't be matched on the list building board.