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I wouldn't really look to allies. Other than our flyer and cavalry, SM do a lot better generally -- at that point you might as well just play Marines.

I've just had the most trouble coming up with an HQ build, man. How do you guys kit out a non-TWC Wolf Lord, for example? They all seem to be ballpark too expensive, which really sucks. I keep coming up with builds that clock in at 170--200pts and thinking, "Why would I do that when I can just take a thunderwolf?"

The guy is awesome, don't get me wrong, I just really wish it wasn't so obviously the only good HQ choice.

Ulrik. That's how you kit out a lord.

If you want a foot lord, you're almost always better off to take Ulrik and put him in any squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, SW are GREAT with allies. SM and SOB are two perfect examples that really benefit from a Pod army and using SW as primary.

Yeah, I feel like SW are about TWC and maybe the new flyers, everything else C:SM can just do better, imo. Allies are where I'm looking, though I played a game with my SW only list the other day and it did very well, this is what I played:


HQ – Harald Deathwolf (for wolf leadership)

HQ – Epistolary Rune Priest (Divination) w/ Runic Axe & Bike

Troops – 10x Grey Hunters w/ 2x Flamers
Transport – Rhino

Troops – 10x Grey Hunters w/ 2x Flamers
Transport – Rhino

Troops – 5x Blood Claws (Stormfang)

Elites – 5x Wolf Guard w/ 5x Combi-Melta
Transport – Drop Pod

Elites – 5x Wolf Guard w/ 5x Combi-Melta
Transport – Drop Pod

Elites – Murderfang the Curseborn
Transport – Drop Pod

Fast Attack – 5x Thunderwolf Calvary w/ 3x Power Maul, 3x Storm Shield, 2x Power Fist

Fast Attack – 10x Fenrisian Wolves

Fast Attack – 10x Fenrisian Wolves

Heavy Support – Stormfang Gunship w/ Helfrost Destructor, TL-Lascannon & 2x TL-Multi Melta

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah, I feel like SW are about TWC and maybe the new flyers, everything else C:SM can just do better, imo. Allies are where I'm looking, though I played a game with my SW only list the other day and it did very well, this is what I played:

And cheap marine spam and drop pods...

TWC are where it's at currently. If you don't like them (I don't know why you WOULDN'T, they're frigging awesome) I suggest trying C:SM instead. SW troops don't bring anything to the table that tactical marines cannot do equally well unless you start going overboard with upgrades. Heavy support choices are pretty much the same with C:SM getting the longer stick with TFCs.

Bike spam, centurions, etc, that's where the dakka is. However all the dakka in the world cannot save you once properly built TWC hit your lines. TWC are frigging brutal and I only run one squad currently. I plan on expanding it to two squads but I'm not sure I can drink all the tears my opponents are going to shed.

Oh and also the Axe Dread is a BEAST.

Weazel what would your 1850 look like?

The difference is that you can put 60 marines and 6 drop pods down in SW (with some upgrades) for less than 1000 points. Then you build the rest of your list and fill it with TWC or whatever.

Wolves for the Wolf God wrote:
Weazel what would your 1850 look like?

I'm thinking 2 units of 4 TWC each, SS all around since AP2 stuff is too abundant with MCs and plasma and whatever. Armed with at least one powerfist, season with other powerweapons to taste. Both units lead by WGBL with SS/TH. Now I've been thinking about bikes recently, not that SW are very good at bikes, but with the TWC taking a lot of attention two WG bike squads with enough meltabombs and some specials are going to present a huge threat to secondary targets (vehicles etc). Also an Axedread in a Pod to drop in and harass and hopefully draw some of the high strength firepower off the TWC. If he doesn't get attention well then it's too bad for the opponent since he's going to wreck face.

Fill the remaining points with Heavy support of your choice or a Stormwolf if you're afraid of flyers. Oh and this is CotGW detachment obviously.

SS all around is a bit too spendy. Stormwolves aren't just for flyers either. They are a anti-tank/anti-elite powerhouse.

 pretre wrote:
SS all around is a bit too spendy. Stormwolves aren't just for flyers either. They are a anti-tank/anti-elite powerhouse.

15 points is not too bad, but if you don't want to go all out on shields, at least half of a squad needs them, hands down. If you go naked you're going to regret it.

Also the Stormwolf is great on paper and the model is cool, but it just doesn't deliver like it should. Penetrating hits even at AP1 are just not enough to bring anything down reliably. Glancing stuff to death is how you do it. I just feel it's a bit too expensive for what it really does, sadly. Oh and also while hunting air targets they are going to Jink, guaranteed. That really hampers the AA potential when half your hits aren't gonna make it through.

Yeah, I generally go with half.

Having played two Stormwolves at a 3 game event a week or two ago, I completely disagree. 2 twinlinked AP1 and 1 TL AP2 that goes where you want them is just awesome. Not to mention POTMS.

If your meta has plenty of elite units, flyers or vehicles, Stormwolves are great.

Since I ice-murdered one MC at full wounds and shot another to death in one volley in one turn, I consider the thing a must. However I usually don't bring cargo along. I want to keep strafing and hate coming down low and ruining a good shot opportunity to drop off the cargo!

Depends on the vehicles. Against Eldar they're pretty much useless. Obviously YMMV but in a friendly tournament last weekend the Stormwolf did practically nothing of note. In one game of five it barely managed to kill more stuff than it costs. In every other game it maybe damaged something and came down in a glorious fireball the next turn.

Helfrost is great when it happens but 16% chance after a wound against most MCs is not something to count on.

But yeah I'll probably run it in my lists for a while still before passing my final judgement.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
Since I ice-murdered one MC at full wounds and shot another to death in one volley in one turn, I consider the thing a must. However I usually don't bring cargo along. I want to keep strafing and hate coming down low and ruining a good shot opportunity to drop off the cargo!

Yeah, it's too bad they don't have the deepstrike rule or something. I definitely am moving to minimum squads though in them to give them obsec or some sort of buff bubble (wolf standard is great from a SW).


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 Weazel wrote:
Depends on the vehicles. Against Eldar they're pretty much useless. Obviously YMMV but in a friendly tournament last weekend the Stormwolf did practically nothing of note. In one game of five it barely managed to kill more stuff than it costs. In every other game it maybe damaged something and came down in a glorious fireball the next turn.

Keep in mind that a stormwolf can get up the kilt shots on Wave serpents since they helfrost shoots in any direction.

 pretre wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Depends on the vehicles. Against Eldar they're pretty much useless. Obviously YMMV but in a friendly tournament last weekend the Stormwolf did practically nothing of note. In one game of five it barely managed to kill more stuff than it costs. In every other game it maybe damaged something and came down in a glorious fireball the next turn.

Keep in mind that a stormwolf can get up the kilt shots on Wave serpents since they helfrost shoots in any direction.

You do know that Wave Serpents have 3+ Jink, right?

Yep. I'll take a one shot to make you jink though while I fire the rest somewhere else.

 pretre wrote:
Yep. I'll take a one shot to make you jink though while I fire the rest somewhere else.

The Eldar player is doing it wrong if you can fly over his Serpents and have anything in front of you to shoot at. My regular Eldar opponent doesn't make such mistakes.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
I wouldn't really look to allies. Other than our flyer and cavalry, SM do a lot better generally -- at that point you might as well just play Marines.

I've just had the most trouble coming up with an HQ build, man. How do you guys kit out a non-TWC Wolf Lord, for example? They all seem to be ballpark too expensive, which really sucks. I keep coming up with builds that clock in at 170--200pts and thinking, "Why would I do that when I can just take a thunderwolf?"

The guy is awesome, don't get me wrong, I just really wish it wasn't so obviously the only good HQ choice.

You could make a biomancy rune priest with a rune axe on a bike. 115 for ML2 T5 3+ save. He's not the sturdiest, but he gets 3 attacks (4 on the charge) at S6 AP2 and some of the biomancy powers could make him gross in melee. The primaris is an AP2 witchfire. Adding the helm takes him to 135 and gives him ignores cover on all shooting attacks (and presumably witchfires) and rerolls to hit. He's not the melee beatstick the wolf lord is, but can be scary enough for 135 points as long as you can avoid getting him in a challenge with any melee beatsticks. TWC leader or Wolfguard leader can eat nasty challenges. (You know, unless you roll Iron Arm and find yourself being T8 and making S9 attacks.)

I would start by allying with IK, then spam StormWolves, then TWC if you have points left.


I don't think anything from codex SW is exceptional outside of TWC and StormWolf - I may be wrong of course.


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 Weazel wrote:
The Eldar player is doing it wrong if you can fly over his Serpents and have anything in front of you to shoot at. My regular Eldar opponent doesn't make such mistakes.

Then he's making other mistakes.
Your blanket statement is invalid.


That being said, flying past enemy units with a flyer is rarely a good choice.



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 Weazel wrote:
Depends on the vehicles. Against Eldar they're pretty much useless. Obviously YMMV but in a friendly tournament last weekend the Stormwolf did practically nothing of note. In one game of five it barely managed to kill more stuff than it costs. In every other game it maybe damaged something and came down in a glorious fireball the next turn.

Helfrost is great when it happens but 16% chance after a wound against most MCs is not something to count on.

But yeah I'll probably run it in my lists for a while still before passing my final judgement.

Then you just had bad luck.

With all the firepower there is on a Stormwolf or Stormfang (assuming you did take the Skyhammer or two multimeltas), it's rather unlikely to not make its 215 - 255 points back.

morgoth wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Depends on the vehicles. Against Eldar they're pretty much useless. Obviously YMMV but in a friendly tournament last weekend the Stormwolf did practically nothing of note. In one game of five it barely managed to kill more stuff than it costs. In every other game it maybe damaged something and came down in a glorious fireball the next turn.

Helfrost is great when it happens but 16% chance after a wound against most MCs is not something to count on.

But yeah I'll probably run it in my lists for a while still before passing my final judgement.

Then you just had bad luck.

With all the firepower there is on a Stormwolf or Stormfang (assuming you did take the Skyhammer or two multimeltas), it's rather unlikely to not make its 215 - 255 points back.

Yeah I had bad luck, I'm not saying that. But there are not that many vehicles worth more than 235 pts, so you're hard pressed to make its points back by just destroying your target whatever it is and then crash the next turn. If you think the Stormwolf is hard to drop then I doubt if you have ever fielded it. 1-2 Wave Serpents are going to make short work of it.

That's debatable. Long time Eldar player here, I learned that Serpents are decent secondary AA if you need to strip that last hullpoint, but they're unreliable. Besides, if the Serpents are forcing themselves to shoot snapshots instead of shooting at BS4 at those bikes or TWC smashimg into Eldar lines, I'm a happy as a cub. If he doesn't get a 6 on his SL, I'd be suprised if he took a single hullpoint off with just 2 Serpents. Even a Crimson Hunter shouldn't one-shot a Wolf.

 Araenion wrote:
That's debatable. Long time Eldar player here, I learned that Serpents are decent secondary AA if you need to strip that last hullpoint, but they're unreliable. Besides, if the Serpents are forcing themselves to shoot snapshots instead of shooting at BS4 at those bikes or TWC smashimg into Eldar lines, I'm a happy as a cub. If he doesn't get a 6 on his SL, I'd be suprised if he took a single hullpoint off with just 2 Serpents. Even a Crimson Hunter shouldn't one-shot a Wolf.

If you fail to rolla even a single 6 with 4 TL shots you need to start sacrificing more to the dice gods. I've yet to see that happen.

And furthermore like I said Eldar tanks are nigh impossible to kill with a single Stormwolf. You can debate this as much as you like but that's just how it is, Serpents are taken out by volume of fire/ignores cover/CC.

And furtherfurthermore you're bound to have at least one WS jinking so you might as well shoot at the flyer since you have equal chance hitting it as hitting the TWC. Which makes no goddamn sense, you make evasive maneuvers yet you're just as able to hit ground targets and air targets afterwards.

 pretre wrote:
With Tigurius getting PT and Grav Cents, you basically just have to pick up a unit each turn and remove it from the board unless you kill them.

Or unless you encounter a green tide. In which case, you're doomed.

 Weazel wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
That's debatable. Long time Eldar player here, I learned that Serpents are decent secondary AA if you need to strip that last hullpoint, but they're unreliable. Besides, if the Serpents are forcing themselves to shoot snapshots instead of shooting at BS4 at those bikes or TWC smashimg into Eldar lines, I'm a happy as a cub. If he doesn't get a 6 on his SL, I'd be suprised if he took a single hullpoint off with just 2 Serpents. Even a Crimson Hunter shouldn't one-shot a Wolf.

If you fail to rolla even a single 6 with 4 TL shots you need to start sacrificing more to the dice gods. I've yet to see that happen.

And furthermore like I said Eldar tanks are nigh impossible to kill with a single Stormwolf. You can debate this as much as you like but that's just how it is, Serpents are taken out by volume of fire/ignores cover/CC.

And furtherfurthermore you're bound to have at least one WS jinking so you might as well shoot at the flyer since you have equal chance hitting it as hitting the TWC. Which makes no goddamn sense, you make evasive maneuvers yet you're just as able to hit ground targets and air targets afterwards.

I really don't think your experiences are in line with the statistical reality of those units.

Not only is it extremely hard to drop an AV12 flyer with Wave Serpents (on average, you get 1 S6 shot and 1 S7 shot through, so 1/6th of a HP and 1/3rd of a HP respectively, no chance for explodes, and 1/36th chance that it's immobilized), but it's extremely easy to drop at least one HP off a WS every turn you shoot with a StormShip.

morgoth wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
That's debatable. Long time Eldar player here, I learned that Serpents are decent secondary AA if you need to strip that last hullpoint, but they're unreliable. Besides, if the Serpents are forcing themselves to shoot snapshots instead of shooting at BS4 at those bikes or TWC smashimg into Eldar lines, I'm a happy as a cub. If he doesn't get a 6 on his SL, I'd be suprised if he took a single hullpoint off with just 2 Serpents. Even a Crimson Hunter shouldn't one-shot a Wolf.

If you fail to rolla even a single 6 with 4 TL shots you need to start sacrificing more to the dice gods. I've yet to see that happen.

And furthermore like I said Eldar tanks are nigh impossible to kill with a single Stormwolf. You can debate this as much as you like but that's just how it is, Serpents are taken out by volume of fire/ignores cover/CC.

And furtherfurthermore you're bound to have at least one WS jinking so you might as well shoot at the flyer since you have equal chance hitting it as hitting the TWC. Which makes no goddamn sense, you make evasive maneuvers yet you're just as able to hit ground targets and air targets afterwards.

I really don't think your experiences are in line with the statistical reality of those units.

Not only is it extremely hard to drop an AV12 flyer with Wave Serpents (on average, you get 1 S6 shot and 1 S7 shot through, so 1/6th of a HP and 1/3rd of a HP respectively, no chance for explodes, and 1/36th chance that it's immobilized), but it's extremely easy to drop at least one HP off a WS every turn you shoot with a StormShip.

You take that one HP off and you overshoot the WS next turn if you don't hover. And hover means suicide. Every game the Stormwolf has received attention it has come down pretty fast. Once your TWC are stuck in it's such an obvious target. I have to admit that in one game it was destroyed by a lucky single lascannon shot from full HP, while zooming. My face was probably worth seeing.

E: Anyway, its usefulness depends a lot on your meta. I'm not arguing that it's not strong or whatever, but don't expect it to do miracles.

 Weazel wrote:
You take that one HP off and you overshoot the WS next turn if you don't hover.

Then you need to rethink your flyer deployment and positioning.
If you're having too many problems, just forget about the multimelta and take the skyhammer missiles, they give you a lot more range variety, it's a lot easier to handle.

 Weazel wrote:

If you fail to rolla even a single 6 with 4 TL shots you need to start sacrificing more to the dice gods. I've yet to see that happen.

 Weazel wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yep. I'll take a one shot to make you jink though while I fire the rest somewhere else.

The Eldar player is doing it wrong if you can fly over his Serpents and have anything in front of you to shoot at. My regular Eldar opponent doesn't make such mistakes.

You don't have to fly past. The TL-Helfrost has a 360 arc.


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 Araenion wrote:
Thing is, with Eldar tanks, you don't need to kill them with shooting. At least marines don't. They need to cut down the firepower by forcing jinks, then catch them in CC or force them to lose more firepower by turbo-boosting away. This is all tricky against a good Serpent player, but if you're about equal in skill and board awareness, it can get quite interesting, quite fast, and usually ends with a pretty even score.
I

Exactly.

Araenion is right. Many players are obsessed with being able to kill units, and find anything that doesn't do so to be worthless (which is of course far from the truth).

And of course anyone using their Serpents to down the Stormwolf is going to be eating some harsh TWC Strength 10 soon enough, otherwise.

 pretre wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yep. I'll take a one shot to make you jink though while I fire the rest somewhere else.

The Eldar player is doing it wrong if you can fly over his Serpents and have anything in front of you to shoot at. My regular Eldar opponent doesn't make such mistakes.

You don't have to fly past. The TL-Helfrost has a 360 arc.

Your point? If you want to shoot at their rear armor, yeah you need to fly past them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:
Thing is, with Eldar tanks, you don't need to kill them with shooting. At least marines don't. They need to cut down the firepower by forcing jinks, then catch them in CC or force them to lose more firepower by turbo-boosting away. This is all tricky against a good Serpent player, but if you're about equal in skill and board awareness, it can get quite interesting, quite fast, and usually ends with a pretty even score.

In an aggressive SW list you just don't have that much shooting that you can reliably keep them jinked every turn. Furthermore in a tank heavy Eldar list there aren't many targets besides the tanks for Stormwolves so you're pretty much forced to shoot at them. Every time I see people giving "advice" along the lines of "just CC them" or "krak grenades are great against Serpents" make me wonder if those people have ever played against an Eldar player that knows his s**t.

I'll re-iterate: I think the Stormwolf can be wonderful, but just don't expect too much from it and against certain matchups it can prove to be near useless or at the very least subpar.