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Angelic, I move Farsight 6" towards O'Vesa. He ends his move 3" apart from O'Vesa. Did I break a rule?

 Happyjew wrote:
Angelic, I move Farsight 6" towards O'Vesa. He ends his move 3" apart from O'Vesa. Did I break a rule?

Is Farsight within 2" of O'vesa's unit?

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Angelic, I move Farsight 6" towards O'Vesa. He ends his move 3" apart from O'Vesa. Did I break a rule?

Is Farsight within 2" of O'vesa's unit?

You are not answering my question.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Angelic, I move Farsight 6" towards O'Vesa. He ends his move 3" apart from O'Vesa. Did I break a rule?

Is Farsight within 2" of O'vesa's unit?

You are not answering my question.

Because you haven't supplied enough information to provide an answer.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Talos what you miseed is that the not "end of THE movement phase" its "end of THEIR movement phase", two very different sentences.

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not.

Quote from the rulebook above. I am quite sure i was correct.

You cannot invoke this rule unless the Movement Phase ends with an IC not in a Unit.
If O'Vesa joins Farsight, "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

As long as the joining is possible, the 2" bubble is ignored. We have enough rules support that O'Vesa can join Farsight.

 BlackTalos wrote:

You cannot invoke this rule unless the Movement Phase ends with an IC not in a Unit.

Not a condition of the rule, but I can see this is pointless to continue.

Angelic wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

You cannot invoke this rule unless the Movement Phase ends with an IC not in a Unit.

Not a condition of the rule, but I can see this is pointless to continue.

How is "If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit" not a condition, starting with "IF", ending with a comma?

The condition on "it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away"
is that he does not join the Unit. If the IC can join the Unit (O'Vesa > Farsight) then he simply does.

If you had already moved O'Vesa, and tried to (Farsight > O'Vesa), then Farsight would have to be 2" away by the End of the phase (and not be able to even approach if he was the last Unit you move in your turn)

I do hate the "it must (where possible) remain" clause though. When is possible and when is not???

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Angelic, I move Farsight 6" towards O'Vesa. He ends his move 3" apart from O'Vesa. Did I break a rule?

Is Farsight within 2" of O'vesa's unit?

You are not answering my question.

Because you haven't supplied enough information to provide an answer.

How do you not have enough information?

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Yes, assuming all conditions for joining are met.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

This.

An IC that is part of a unit is not 'joining' that same unit every end of movement phase. Nothing is removing the IC from that unit if you end your movement in coherency.

The rules for IC joining another unit are also clearly one-sided, nothing about the rule states anything about the unit in question being joined aside from the unit to-be-joined containing a MC or not.

Ovesa moving into coherency with Farsight:
Farsight is his own unit.
Farsight moves, ends his movement greater than 2" from O'vesa.
O'vesa moves, ends his movement within 2" of Farsight.
RAW : IC has moved into coherency of another unit. Unit to-be-joined does not contain a MC. Join is legal.

IC MC joining to Unit w/ IC is completely legal.
IC joining to unit w/ MC IC is illegal.

Edit:
NVM

If they were kicked out, that could cause some serious rule problems.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Yes, assuming all conditions for joining are met.

So you have an IC that is a member of two units?

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Yes, assuming all conditions for joining are met.

So you have an IC that is a member of two units?

No.

Once again, it is fairly clear the RAW does not prohibit O'vesa from joining anything other than other MC's and vehicles, however it is also fairly clear to me that the RAI is that he cannot in fact join a unit which house's another IC.


Once you take into consideration the reason they changed it so that IC's could not join MC's any longer you will surely understand why.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Yes, assuming all conditions for joining are met.

So you have an IC that is a member of two units?

No.

So if he's already joined to a unit and wants to join another unit, he leaves the first one. Correct?
So it does matter if he has joined a unit already - he must leave it.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Once again, it is fairly clear the RAW does not prohibit O'vesa from joining anything other than other MC's and vehicles, however it is also fairly clear to me that the RAI is that he cannot in fact join a unit which house's another IC.


Once you take into consideration the reason they changed it so that IC's could not join MC's any longer you will surely understand why.

RAI why would one of farsights personal guards not be able to be in a unit with himself?

Hydromancer wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Once again, it is fairly clear the RAW does not prohibit O'vesa from joining anything other than other MC's and vehicles, however it is also fairly clear to me that the RAI is that he cannot in fact join a unit which house's another IC.


Once you take into consideration the reason they changed it so that IC's could not join MC's any longer you will surely understand why.

RAI why would one of farsights personal guards not be able to be in a unit with himself?

Ridiculous statement since one does not join oneself, so a prohibition on "joining" and MC does not apply to O'vesa when he's the only MC. And this whole idea that they are all intended to run around together instead of splitting off to command separate units is also not set in stone. One of them is in a Broadside suit.

Angelic wrote:
One of them is in a Broadside suit.

... and how is that relevant at all? O.o

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Doesn't matter if he has joined a unit already.

Please explain that thought.

The rule says if an IC cannot join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away. It does not include any statements such as "unless already joined" or any other phrases indicating whether or not already being part of a unit has any bearing on the matter.

Can an IC join a unit if he's already joined to a unit? Simple question, should be a yes or no answer.

Yes, assuming all conditions for joining are met.

So you have an IC that is a member of two units?

No.

So if he's already joined to a unit and wants to join another unit, he leaves the first one. Correct?
So it does matter if he has joined a unit already - he must leave it.

Not entirely correct. It is not required that he leave a unit to join another. It potentially happens as an incident to joining a unit.

As an example: (for this example we'll assume there's nothing stopping O'vesa from joining the frivolities)

Farsight and Crisis unit running around. O'vesa wants to play and joins in. Farsight has continues to associate with them even though that O'vesa guy stole his Milano cookies last time around. Farsight has now joined a new unit, Ovesa and Crisis, because he chose not to leave. Did he leave his old unit, the Crisis? Not really, but he still joined one that wasn't there before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
One of them is in a Broadside suit.

... and how is that relevant at all? O.o

Kinda stops DS, slows down all of the Jet Pack movement. Hard to believe that was intended as opposed to having the guy go off and command a Broadside unit. The poster was making a fluff argument.

Angelic you've spent the majority of your posts in this thread either not actually quoting the BRB or the CODEX and making these very strange anecdotes which don't really apply to the situation at hand.

The rules are clear cut here, the only possible argument could be RAI from the BRB: "No units of IC and MC", but even from a RAI perspective "I am farsight, these are my personal guards" trumps BRB as Codex > BRB.

Hydro the problem with that is that the Farsight supplement was written before 7th was released and GW has not felt the need to update their materials to be kosher with the edition update.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Hydro the problem with that is that the Farsight supplement was written before 7th was released and GW has not felt the need to update their materials to be kosher with the edition update.

FAQ's bring codex's into compliance with the edition they are written for, and if an FAQ is not available then the codex still trumps the BRB.

One of the biggest case in points right now is BA or Crons.

At any rate:

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Detachment with Commander Farsight as its Warlord, you may take Farsight's Commander Team instead of Farsight's XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team. The Commander Team is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from those listed on pages 38-39.

This is pretty clear. There is not a single (to the best of my knowledge) slotless HQ choice royalcourt/bodyguards/etc/etc that doesn't come as a single unit. By RAW and RAI: If you start the game with a full Commander team, they start as a unit, and are treated as a unit, and if that unit happens to have O'vesa in it, what would prompt the removal of ANY of the models from the unit as nothing in the rules states IC's are un-joined from their units unless they end the movement phase out of coherences?

Or, they felt that oneof farsights bodyguards should, quite sensibly, he able to be a bodyguard for farsight.

Luckily the rules entirely support this.

Hydromancer wrote:
Angelic you've spent the majority of your posts in this thread either not actually quoting the BRB or the CODEX and making these very strange anecdotes which don't really apply to the situation at hand.

The rules are clear cut here, the only possible argument could be RAI from the BRB: "No units of IC and MC", but even from a RAI perspective "I am farsight, these are my personal guards" trumps BRB as Codex > BRB.

They aren't anecdotes because none of these things have actually ever happened. They are examples and questions intended to provoke alternative thought and inquiry. If you don't get that, they aren't intended for you. I have quoted sufficient rules or cited to other posters who have, to support my contentions. Others may not find it sufficient, which is fine, but this is not "he who quotes the most rules wins" forum. I get that people will twist and confuse rules in order to get the ultimate result that they want in this situation, a Tau Buff commander with a Riptide. Have at it. If you think that result is okay, who really cares what order you move your models in.

Also, they aren't Farsight's Bodyguard, because, you know, they replace his Bodyguard.

Angelic wrote:
Not entirely correct. It is not required that he leave a unit to join another. It potentially happens as an incident to joining a unit.

As an example: (for this example we'll assume there's nothing stopping O'vesa from joining the frivolities)

Farsight and Crisis unit running around. O'vesa wants to play and joins in. Farsight has continues to associate with them even though that O'vesa guy stole his Milano cookies last time around. Farsight has now joined a new unit, Ovesa and Crisis, because he chose not to leave. Did he leave his old unit, the Crisis? Not really, but he still joined one that wasn't there before.

I'd love to see a rules citation that covers this. Nothing I've read even implies that you leave a unit and join the unit again when another IC joins - which is what you just said.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
One of them is in a Broadside suit.

... and how is that relevant at all? O.o

Kinda stops DS, slows down all of the Jet Pack movement. Hard to believe that was intended as opposed to having the guy go off and command a Broadside unit. The poster was making a fluff argument.

And fluffwise it's supported...

Angelic - it is however a "relevant rules " forum.

You have yet to cite a single one that supports your stance.

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:
Angelic you've spent the majority of your posts in this thread either not actually quoting the BRB or the CODEX and making these very strange anecdotes which don't really apply to the situation at hand.

The rules are clear cut here, the only possible argument could be RAI from the BRB: "No units of IC and MC", but even from a RAI perspective "I am farsight, these are my personal guards" trumps BRB as Codex > BRB.

They aren't anecdotes because none of these things have actually ever happened. They are examples and questions intended to provoke alternative thought and inquiry. If you don't get that, they aren't intended for you. I have quoted sufficient rules or cited to other posters who have, to support my contentions. Others may not find it sufficient, which is fine, but this is not "he who quotes the most rules wins" forum. I get that people will twist and confuse rules in order to get the ultimate result that they want in this situation, a Tau Buff commander with a Riptide. Have at it. If you think that result is okay, who really cares what order you move your models in.

Also, they aren't Farsight's Bodyguard, because, you know, they replace his Bodyguard.

Well I've got the wrong word, but my intention is still there. You're arguing that a rule doesn't mean what it's actually written as. If we're going to do that why not just toss all the rules we don't like out the window?

Also, they aren't Farsight's Bodyguard, because, you know, they replace his Bodyguard.

So.. you're saying the replacement item isn't actually replacing the item in question.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Angelic - it is however a "relevant rules " forum.

You have yet to cite a single one that supports your stance.

I've cited a several, which you disagree with. Doesn't mean I haven't cited any.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Not entirely correct. It is not required that he leave a unit to join another. It potentially happens as an incident to joining a unit.

As an example: (for this example we'll assume there's nothing stopping O'vesa from joining the frivolities)

Farsight and Crisis unit running around. O'vesa wants to play and joins in. Farsight has continues to associate with them even though that O'vesa guy stole his Milano cookies last time around. Farsight has now joined a new unit, Ovesa and Crisis, because he chose not to leave. Did he leave his old unit, the Crisis? Not really, but he still joined one that wasn't there before.

I'd love to see a rules citation that covers this. Nothing I've read even implies that you leave a unit and join the unit again when another IC joins - which is what you just said.

I'll try this one more time. The rules for an IC joining a unit do not place a condition upon the IC that it is alone prior to joining a unit, only that it be within 2" "at the end of their movement phase". As soon as that condition is met, it has joined the unit (barring multiple eligible units), regardless of it's prior status. If it does not intend or cannot join the unit, it has to remain more than 2" away. An actual displacement of the model is not required because in the rule "so that" follows "move". This indicates that if the latter portion of the rule is met, the prior is not required. Again, the unit doesn't leave a unit and then join the new one. It has joined a new one in the movement phase because the rules say it has by virtue of being with 2" at the end of their movement phase. Did they "leave" the prior unit? Not necessarily. If the old unit is a subset of the new one, they haven't really left it.

rigeld2 wrote:

And fluffwise it's supported...

Stupid to argue about such a thing, so I won't anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hydromancer wrote:

So.. you're saying the replacement item isn't actually replacing the item in question.

Replacing Bodyguard with Commanders. Replacing Secret Service with Generals. Doesn't mean the Generals are his bodyguard. If he wants Bodyguard, maybe he should actually keep the Bodyguard and not the Generals.

Angelic can you think of any slotless-HQ choices that cannot be automatically joined to thier relevant HQ choice and do not come as a single unit but rather a 'group of units'?

By RAW and RAI a full squad of commanders can join the table as a unit attached to Farsight. That alone should speak volumes as to the ability for a MCIC to stay in a unit with another IC.