Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hydromancer wrote:
Angelic can you think of any slotless-HQ choices that cannot be automatically joined to thier relevant HQ choice and do not come as a single unit but rather a 'group of units'?

By RAW and RAI a full squad of commanders can join the table as a unit attached to Farsight. That alone should speak volumes as to the ability for a MCIC to stay in a unit with another IC.

The whole disagreement is that I believe RAW and RAI say O'vesa is a breed apart. And it doesn't speak volumes for the simple fact that when released, the "Eight" were a "unit" in which an IC could join a non-solo MC and now they are a "Commander Team" in which an IC can't join a MC.

My point being is the entire group could (MUST unless there's a rule stating specifically otherwise that I missed) be deployed as a singular unit at the start of the game per RAW / RAI.

They are the same as any royal court / bodyguard unit / etc

EDIT: And if they cannot start the game attached to Farsight (as far against the grain as that goes when stood side by side with every closest possible match to units like it), the entire team can start the game as a single unit, that can't be changed. There is no instance anywhere in the entire book where any choice made from the codex is multiple units, the closest example you get are bloodangels being able to cleave their units into 2 separate units before deployment.

It would be the same as fielding 5 vehicles as a squadron (IE: 1 force org slot) but claiming they are not actually in a squadron and deploying them as 5 separate units. Being slotless doesn't change that.

Hydromancer wrote:
My point being is the entire group could (MUST unless there's a rule stating specifically otherwise that I missed) be deployed as a singular unit at the start of the game per RAW / RAI.

They are the same as any royal court / bodyguard unit / etc

EDIT: And if they cannot start the game attached to Farsight (as far against the grain as that goes when stood side by side with every closest possible match to units like it), the entire team can start the game as a single unit, that can't be changed. There is no instance anywhere in the entire book where any choice made from the codex is multiple units, the closest example you get are bloodangels being able to cleave their units into 2 separate units before deployment.

It would be the same as fielding 5 vehicles as a squadron (IE: 1 force org slot) but claiming they are not actually in a squadron and deploying them as 5 separate units. Being slotless doesn't change that.

They aren't a unit or a squadron. There is no requirement that they be placed together. There are no requirements that 2 or more Commanders be placed together.

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:
My point being is the entire group could (MUST unless there's a rule stating specifically otherwise that I missed) be deployed as a singular unit at the start of the game per RAW / RAI.

They are the same as any royal court / bodyguard unit / etc

EDIT: And if they cannot start the game attached to Farsight (as far against the grain as that goes when stood side by side with every closest possible match to units like it), the entire team can start the game as a single unit, that can't be changed. There is no instance anywhere in the entire book where any choice made from the codex is multiple units, the closest example you get are bloodangels being able to cleave their units into 2 separate units before deployment.

It would be the same as fielding 5 vehicles as a squadron (IE: 1 force org slot) but claiming they are not actually in a squadron and deploying them as 5 separate units. Being slotless doesn't change that.

They aren't a unit or a squadron. There is no requirement that they be placed together. In fact, as they are merely base "individual" models purchased with specific items from Codex: Tau, they are not a unit.

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Detachment with Commander Farsight as its Warlord, you may take Farsight's Commander Team instead of Farsight's XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team. The Commander Team is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from those listed on pages 38-39.

They are a unit.

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:
My point being is the entire group could (MUST unless there's a rule stating specifically otherwise that I missed) be deployed as a singular unit at the start of the game per RAW / RAI.

They are the same as any royal court / bodyguard unit / etc

EDIT: And if they cannot start the game attached to Farsight (as far against the grain as that goes when stood side by side with every closest possible match to units like it), the entire team can start the game as a single unit, that can't be changed. There is no instance anywhere in the entire book where any choice made from the codex is multiple units, the closest example you get are bloodangels being able to cleave their units into 2 separate units before deployment.

It would be the same as fielding 5 vehicles as a squadron (IE: 1 force org slot) but claiming they are not actually in a squadron and deploying them as 5 separate units. Being slotless doesn't change that.

They aren't a unit or a squadron. There is no requirement that they be placed together. In fact, as they are merely base "individual" models purchased with specific items from Codex: Tau, they are not a unit.

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Detachment with Commander Farsight as its Warlord, you may take Farsight's Commander Team instead of Farsight's XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team. The Commander Team is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from those listed on pages 38-39.

They are a unit.

Each individual is. There is nothing in the rule that says together they make a single unit as opposed to a loose affiliation ( a team) that occasionally one or more of its members may make a unit out of.

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:
My point being is the entire group could (MUST unless there's a rule stating specifically otherwise that I missed) be deployed as a singular unit at the start of the game per RAW / RAI.

They are the same as any royal court / bodyguard unit / etc

EDIT: And if they cannot start the game attached to Farsight (as far against the grain as that goes when stood side by side with every closest possible match to units like it), the entire team can start the game as a single unit, that can't be changed. There is no instance anywhere in the entire book where any choice made from the codex is multiple units, the closest example you get are bloodangels being able to cleave their units into 2 separate units before deployment.

It would be the same as fielding 5 vehicles as a squadron (IE: 1 force org slot) but claiming they are not actually in a squadron and deploying them as 5 separate units. Being slotless doesn't change that.

They aren't a unit or a squadron. There is no requirement that they be placed together. In fact, as they are merely base "individual" models purchased with specific items from Codex: Tau, they are not a unit.

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Detachment with Commander Farsight as its Warlord, you may take Farsight's Commander Team instead of Farsight's XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team. The Commander Team is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven battlesuits chosen from those listed on pages 38-39.

They are a unit.

Each individual is. There is nothing in the rule that says together they make a single unit as opposed to a loose affiliation ( a team) that occasionally one or more of its members may make a unit out of.

There is nothing saying they are NOT a singular unit.

Every single HQ/Troop/FastAttack/HeavySupport/ETC works this way. They are in no way the exception unless there is a specific rule stating they are. You cannot split force org slots up as that completely defeats the purpose of them.

Hydromancer wrote:

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

First, they don't take up a slot. Second, Lone Wolfs, Daemon Heralds, Primaris Psykers.

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

First, they don't take up a slot. Second, Lone Wolfs, Daemon Heralds, Primaris Psykers.

And all of those explicitly state so.

Commander team does not.

The fact that they don't take up a slot or not is irrelevant in the face of the fact that any army choice cannot be split unless expressly given permission to do so.

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

First, they don't take up a slot. Second, Lone Wolfs, Daemon Heralds, Primaris Psykers.

And all of those explicitly state so.

Commander team does not.

The fact that they don't take up a slot or not is irrelevant in the face of the fact that any army choice cannot be split unless expressly given permission to do so.

Those statements are redundant because there is nothing saying that individual models in those instances even become a single unit in the first place. Particularly in the case of Heralds. C: TE Commander does not include anything in his entry, either in the main book or the entry under the Eight that says he is a unit with any other entity.

Edit: Also Farsight's entry says "Unit composition 1 (Unique). All of the Commanders say "Commander with X" and Commander says "Unit Composition 1 Commander" and so on.

This thread is making me want to go home and paint some more models for my Farsight Enclaves army!

Seriously though. We've established that O'Vesa can move into coherency with Farsight to join Farsight's unit. We've established that Farsight cannot move into coherency with O'Vesa as he is unable to move to within 2" of a unit he can't join (in this case a unit containing a monstrous creature).

My understanding is that for an independent character to leave a unit, he must end his movement phase out of coherency with his previous unit. I don't have the rules quote on this. Maybe someone could provide it. So long as the models are all in coherency once each model has moved, no one left the unit. I don't see any rules dictating that an IC must leave and rejoin each time a move occurs. I do see rules that say once joined an IC is a part of that unit for all rules purposes, including moving without leaving.

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

First, they don't take up a slot. Second, Lone Wolfs, Daemon Heralds, Primaris Psykers.

And all of those explicitly state so.

Commander team does not.

The fact that they don't take up a slot or not is irrelevant in the face of the fact that any army choice cannot be split unless expressly given permission to do so.

Those statements are redundant because there is nothing saying that individual models in those instances even become a single unit in the first place. Particularly in the case of Heralds. C: TE Commander does not include anything in his entry, either in the main book or the entry under the Eight that says he is a unit with any other entity.

All choices are taken as a single unit in all instances in every codex. What matters is deployment and how you choose to deploy them, as before deployment they are a single 'unit'. during deployment changes occur to who consists of what unit/where.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
This thread is making me want to go home and paint some more models for my Farsight Enclaves army!

Seriously though. We've established that O'Vesa can move into coherency with Farsight to join Farsight's unit. We've established that Farsight cannot move into coherency with O'Vesa as he is unable to move to within 2" of a unit he can't join (in this case a unit containing a monstrous creature).

My understanding is that for an independent character to leave a unit, he must end his movement phase out of coherency with his previous unit. I don't have the rules quote on this. Maybe someone could provide it. So long as the models are all in coherency once each model has moved, no one left the unit. I don't see any rules dictating that an IC must leave and rejoin each time a move occurs. I do see rules that say once joined an IC is a part of that unit for all rules purposes, including moving without leaving.

I wanna get some farsight to begin with! They seem so cool!

And yeah I think I'm pretty much done with the thread. It seems completely asinine that Angelic is essentially arguing you can split any force org choice into any # of units you desire, or that you are denied deploying them in their default state (Pre deployment, barring units composed OF IC's and deploying them out of coherency)

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Hydromancer wrote:

Find me a rule or prior example saying you can split a force org slot of any type into more than a singular unit.

First, they don't take up a slot. Second, Lone Wolfs, Daemon Heralds, Primaris Psykers.

And all of those explicitly state so.

Commander team does not.

The fact that they don't take up a slot or not is irrelevant in the face of the fact that any army choice cannot be split unless expressly given permission to do so.

Those statements are redundant because there is nothing saying that individual models in those instances even become a single unit in the first place. Particularly in the case of Heralds. C: TE Commander does not include anything in his entry, either in the main book or the entry under the Eight that says he is a unit with any other entity.

All choices are taken as a single unit in all instances in every codex. What matters is deployment and how you choose to deploy them, as before deployment they are a single 'unit'. during deployment changes occur to who consists of what unit/where.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
This thread is making me want to go home and paint some more models for my Farsight Enclaves army!

Seriously though. We've established that O'Vesa can move into coherency with Farsight to join Farsight's unit. We've established that Farsight cannot move into coherency with O'Vesa as he is unable to move to within 2" of a unit he can't join (in this case a unit containing a monstrous creature).

My understanding is that for an independent character to leave a unit, he must end his movement phase out of coherency with his previous unit. I don't have the rules quote on this. Maybe someone could provide it. So long as the models are all in coherency once each model has moved, no one left the unit. I don't see any rules dictating that an IC must leave and rejoin each time a move occurs. I do see rules that say once joined an IC is a part of that unit for all rules purposes, including moving without leaving.

I wanna get some farsight to begin with! They seem so cool!

And yeah I think I'm pretty much done with the thread. It seems completely asinine that Angelic is essentially arguing you can split any force org choice into any # of units you desire.

This really is pointless. Everyone has made up their minds already. Whether they have posted or just read.

Angelic wrote:
I'll try this one more time. The rules for an IC joining a unit do not place a condition upon the IC that it is alone prior to joining a unit, only that it be within 2" "at the end of their movement phase". As soon as that condition is met, it has joined the unit (barring multiple eligible units), regardless of it's prior status. If it does not intend or cannot join the unit, it has to remain more than 2" away. An actual displacement of the model is not required because in the rule "so that" follows "move". This indicates that if the latter portion of the rule is met, the prior is not required. Again, the unit doesn't leave a unit and then join the new one. It has joined a new one in the movement phase because the rules say it has by virtue of being with 2" at the end of their movement phase. Did they "leave" the prior unit? Not necessarily. If the old unit is a subset of the new one, they haven't really left it.

So an IC has to "rejoin" a unit every turn? There isn't a "new" unit there - it's the same unit of Crisis Suits (or Kroot, or whatever). The members of the unit change but the unit itself stays the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angelic wrote:
This really is pointless. Everyone has made up their minds already. Whether they have posted or just read.

And one side of the discussion has posted rules that support their argument. The other has cited rules but no relevant ones.

No angelic, you posted rules. Just nothing that actually state what you claim

Please mark your posts as hywpi, as the tenets require,as you havent proven your case

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No angelic, you posted rules. Just nothing that actually state what you claim

Please mark your posts as hywpi, as the tenets require,as you havent proven your case

So humorous. To believe that anyone on these forums can actually prove anything based upon an interpretation of something so fluid and malleable as the English language. Particularly as it is used by Games Workshop. The only entity capable of proving whether or not O'vesa is allowed to join a unit containing another IC, by the GW rules is GW. Unfortunately for the 40k community, they stay silent most of the time. All anyone has done is put forth theories. Being a stronger theory does not make it proof. When GW does offer the proof, it's probabaly 50/50 which way they go.

Angelic wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No angelic, you posted rules. Just nothing that actually state what you claim

Please mark your posts as hywpi, as the tenets require,as you havent proven your case

So humorous. To believe that anyone on these forums can actually prove anything based upon an interpretation of something so fluid and malleable as the English language. Particularly as it is used by Games Workshop. The only entity capable of proving whether or not O'vesa is allowed to join a unit containing another IC, by the GW rules is GW. Unfortunately for the 40k community, they stay silent most of the time. All anyone has done is put forth theories. Being a stronger theory does not make it proof. When GW does offer the proof, it's probabaly 50/50 which way they go.

Angelic... you're seriously in the minority here.

I don't have page numbers to quote, as I'm using the eBook version, but all of these quotes come from the Independent Character section of the main rulebook.

"Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Ok, so this establishes that Independent Characters can join other units. It establishes that they can join other Independent Characters. It prohibits them from joining units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. So far, so good.

But how does he actually perform the join?

"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase."

So, for an Independent Character to join a unit of Crisis Suits, he must simply move such that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of the unit of Crisis Suits at the end of the Crisis Suits' movement phase.

Ok, so what happens now that he's joined the unit?

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Sure sounds like he's considered to be a part of the unit. Now, how does he leave the unit?

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it."

This makes sense. If he can just walk up, then he can just walk off. But there has been a serious implication that the simple act of moving causes an Independent Character to leave and rejoin a unit. Well, he's a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Let me check the rules on how a unit moves. The first bit is quoted from the movement section under Which Models are Moving. The second bit is quoted from the movement section under Unit Coherency.

"You may decide that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn. If this is the case, declare which models are remaining stationary just before you start moving the other models of that unit. Remember that all models in the unit must still maintain unit coherency (see below)."

"When you are moving a unit, its individual models can each move up to their maximum movement distance. However, units have to stick together, otherwise individual models become scattered and the unit loses its cohesion as a fighting force. So, once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically. We call this ‘unit coherency’."

Ok, so I have a unit composed of a Commander and 3 Crisis Suits. I choose to move them. I know that the Commander CAN leave the unit during the movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with the other Suits, but I don't want him to leave quite yet. Let me fall back on the standard unit movement rules for the unit to see how a move works. Looks like I declare that no models are remaining stationary and move each model up to 6", which is the movement range of both the Commander and the Crisis Suits he is hanging out with. Now, when I move the models up to 6", I have to ensure that they remain within 2" unit coherency of each other. Fantastic! I've followed all the rules to the exact letter and I was able to move while remaining joined to a unit insomuch as I did not leave the unit. At no point was the Commander out of unit coherency, which is the requirement for leaving a unit.

Now let's try the exercise with O'Vesa and Farsight/3 Crisis Suits.

During my movement phase, I choose to move Farsight and the Crisis Suits 6" forward. I move them towards O'Vesa, but can only get far enough that I'm just over 4" away. Farsight and crew will take no further action this movement phase. Now it's O'Vesa's turn. O'Vesa moves closer to Farsight and crew such that he is within 1" of a Crisis Suit (or Farsight... makes no difference). He is intending on joining Farsight's unit. O'Vesa can do this because Farsight's unit is not a unit containing a vehicle or a Monstrous Creature. I conclude my movement phase. Since I am now at the end of Farsight and crew's movement phase and am in unit coherency, they are now joined as one unit with O'Vesa.

In my next movement phase, I decide to move the unit forward. I declare that no models are remaining stationary and move each model 6" forward, making sure to keep them within 2" unit coherency of each other. Since Farsight and O'Vesa are both part of the unit for all rules purposes, I've used the standard unit movement rules above. At no point did they break coherency, so at no point did either model leave the unit. They are still joined.

In my next movement phase, I decide to have Farsight go off on his own. I move Farsight 6" due east and I move the rest of the unit, O'Vesa and the Crisis Suits, 6" due west. Once I've completed the movement I notice that Farsight is no longer in coherency and has therefore left the unit. This was intentional.

In my next movement phase, I decide that Farsight is lonely. I attempt to move Farsight back into unit coherency with his Crisis Suit buddies, but he is forced to stop just outside of 2". This is because he is forbidden from joining a unit that contains a Monstrous Creature and the Crisis Suit unit currently contains a Monstrous Creature! Oh, woe is he. Farsight should have just stayed joined the whole time.

...

Now, I've posted rules. I've posted a very specific scenario showing how you can join Farsight and O'Vesa into one unit. And just in case you try to say that they are joining each other... as per the above, joining requires movement. As per this quote from The Movement Phase section, you completely move one unit and then move onto the next unit.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move."

It would be a violation of the rules if they joined each other because it would necessitate that they both be moving at the same time, and it's pretty clear that you move one unit completely before moving onto the next.

Now...

I've had my say. Please explain to me how they are joining each other or how they're leaving and joining each time they move despite never being out of coherency with each other. And when you give this explanation, please do me the courtesy of quoting rules as I did for you.

And that, Kriswall, was very well done.

Been out of it for a few days but I have a question for Angelic:
Why is one 'end of the Movement Phase' clause constantly checked for compliance but the other 'end of the Movement Phase' clause only checked at the end of the Movement Phase?

What is the point in answering any more questions or arguing any further?

You will not convince me that the rules say that Farsight can't join O'vesa, but O'vesa can join Farsight. You will not convince me that the English definition of "join" does not mean there is cooperation between the parties. I can't convince you of the contrary.

Actually, I can easily be convinced and have changed my position on a lot of things in the past thanks to this site. In fact, it was something that I was going to point out when you tried to claim that forums like this will never be able to find the answer to any of the questions put forth to it. The excuse of 'the English language is too complex' is clearly unjustified when so many questions have been answered using the very language your claiming is always ambiguous. Outside a few cases where the Rule actually are ambiguous, easily recognized because those threads constantly reoccur and run dozens of pages with two very vocal sides, this Forum has done a great job on proving the meaning of Rules. That is why we ask you to post Rules and answer questions like this one, because we really do want to see if we over-looked something.

However, if you are not going to give others the curtsy of using this Forum for it's intended purpose then I must serious ask:
Why are you here at all?

Angelic wrote:
What is the point in answering any more questions or arguing any further?

You will not convince me that the rules say that Farsight can't join O'vesa, but O'vesa can join Farsight. You will not convince me that the English definition of "join" does not mean there is cooperation between the parties. I can't convince you of the contrary.

Well, given you cannot provide a single rule that supports your assertions, no. You won't convince anyone

Not to mention you're now contending that an IC joining a unit also means the unit is joining them. Meaning an IC can never join a non IC unit, as only ICs have permission to join other units

Yet another clue that your argument is as watertight as Gruyere.

Angelic wrote:
What is the point in answering any more questions or arguing any further?

You will not convince me that the rules say that Farsight can't join O'vesa, but O'vesa can join Farsight. You will not convince me that the English definition of "join" does not mean there is cooperation between the parties. I can't convince you of the contrary.

I'm not trying to convince you that the English definition of join does not mean there is cooperation between the parties.

I'm trying to convince you that the act of joining, as more specifically defined within the ruleset of Warhammer 40k requires an element of movement and that those same rules prevent two units from moving at the same time. The rules are very clear on this.

Although, I'm inclined to agree that there is no point in debating any further. You aren't interested in debating the rules. You're basing your argument on an external, and frankly irrelevant connotation. I'm basing my argument on the actual procedures as laid out in the rules. You aren't even willing to address specific rules quotes that invalidate your position. It's frankly like arguing with a child.

Enjoy your dogmatic ignorance, and have a nice day!

I would like to point something out:

Whether or not a character is able to join a unit does not restrict where he can move. At no point do any of the rules state that an independent character is restricted from moving within 2" of a unit he is not able to join.

Being the 'friend' the IP refers to, I'd like to explain how I accomplished my task.

O'vesa moved within 2" of Farsight during the movement phase. As Farsight also moved, that means he ended his movement within 2" of O'vesa.

At the end of my movement phase, because an independent character is within 2" of another unit. it attempts to join it. So, Fartsight attempts to join O'vesa. However, he fails, because O'vesa's unit contains a monstrous creature.

At the end of my movement phase, something else happens. Because an independent character is within 2" of another unit, it attempts to join it. So, O'vesa attempts to join Farsight's unit. As Farsight's unit contains nothing that would prohibit O'vesa from joining his unit, O'vesa succeeds, and joins the unit.

Again; No rule, anywhere in the book, prohibits an IC from moving within 2" of a unit it cannot join. If an IC cannot join a unit, then when it attempts to do so, it fails, and remains a separate unit.

And, if anyone would like to argue with me, please directly quote where, in the rule book, it prohibits an IC from moving within 2" of a friendly unit it cannot join.

Necroes, how about this rule:

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

Happyjew is correct, farsight CANNOT end his movement within 2" of O'vesa

O'vesa however, CAN end his movement within 2" of farsight, so as long O'vesa is the LAST to move, the act of joining is legal, as O'vesa is the one ending his movement and as such the one triggering the join attempt.

The order of operations here is critical, as long as you maintain proper order, you can pull it off. however it also means some things might get screwed on the way (as difficult terrain or any other factor that involves the RNG might cause the plan to have a roadblock along the way)

The 40k rulebook is often using terms that are not 100% loyal to their English dictionary meaning, but as long it has its own definitions (such as in the case, the definition of what is to "join" a unit) than the English dictionary is rendered moot at that point.

How about the rules to not necro dead threads.

Saw a guy who waited until the tau player he was up against moved everyone, and then measured the distance around farsight, who ended up not being within 2" of the unit. So since farsight was by himself he proceeded to kill him :/ gotta make sure that he is within 2" every time. I'm talking farsight was like 2.04" away or something like that.. but rules are rules and he wasn't in coherency

Angelic wrote:
What is the point in answering any more questions or arguing any further?

You will not convince me that the rules say that Farsight can't join O'vesa, but O'vesa can join Farsight. You will not convince me that the English definition of "join" does not mean there is cooperation between the parties. I can't convince you of the contrary.

There is no point in arguing because you do not want to accept that your interpretation of the word join is incorrect.

You mistakenly believe that "to join" is intransitive in this case when clearly it is transitive and therefore implies a direction in the joining of an IC to a unit.

There are cases when "to join" is intransitive, and a "two way" street as you like to call it, but this is not one of them.

Are we still arguing about this? O'Vesa is a special case, being an MC IC. He can join whomever he wants, excluding other MCs and Vehicles as per normal for ICs. Order of operation is important, as with almost every tactical decision in this game.

Joining is an active action and is something the IC is doing. Models without the IC special rule have no permission to join anything, so reading it as a two way street would violate the core rules.