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Seriously? BS filters are not rediculous, it's a solution to a problem. Just making firewarriors less expensive causes their power level to rise when the situation (night fighting) arises. Fixing the situation specifically is a lot better design than just going "Hey, they have a weakness. Lets make them stronger!" Down that road, we get riptides.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:I didnt know tau were cheesey....I see alot of people trying to sell off their tau armies , so i figured that means they arent that great of an army(even im selling a tau army). But Ive only played them for a little bit, and its just not my style....Riptides are pretty chessey but thats it.

Because Tau isn't the FotM nowadays. Or they got tired of having too easy games with 6th ed. Tau and want a new challenge. Or they need money for other projects in their lives.

Ailaros wrote:

gmaleron wrote:I disagree, the Wraithknight is vastly superior to the Riptide in many ways

ignore terrain in the movement phase
has way better weapons
And did I mention the part where the wraithknight is 50% more expensive?

Wraithnights ignore terrain too (who will use Jump Pack to assault with a ranged model?)
36" S10 AP1 ID on 6/auto-pen is quite a good weapon. And the Wraithknight can have 2.
Riptide is 1/3 cheaper, not 50%.

Fauk wrote:
I think the greatest Tau hate comes from the fact that it is hard and not so much fun to play against them most of the time, because it seems so that the tau get everything for dirt cheap.

Nightfighting? Nope every suit ignores that, including blind, and vehicles have to pay 1 pt to ignore it.

Deep striking? Nope, every suit can counter that for just 5 pts.

Cover? Nope, with markerlights and most missilesystems will just ignore it completly.

Missed a shot? Almost anything seems like it is synchro or can increase its BS with markerlights.

Assaulting? Mostly nope, because we can shoot at you for atleast one turn until you get into close combat range, and if you then make it to a charge we will just give you our combined overwatch fire.

This. Is. Exactly. Why.

I don't think tau are OP, but I abhor playing them (except in some rare cases). And the riptide shouldn't need explaining. I think the crack that Vetock was smoking when he wrote up the riptide was considerably stronger than the crack he was smoking when the rules of grav-weaponry came to be.

The riptide is ridiculous and unneeded. It contradicts all the fluff up to that point, and it is, although not the strongest, hard to kill, and is too cheap (or, a tad more accurately, it's options are too cheap)

 Vector Strike wrote:
36" S10 AP1 ID on 6/auto-pen is quite a good weapon. And the Wraithknight can have 2.

It's a terrible weapon for its price. 2 strength 10 AP1 shots at BS4 is knocking a measily 1 hull-point off an AV12 vehicle per turn or killing one marine per turn on average, and you're I.D.'ing/auto-penning something once per every 5 rounds of shooting, statistically.

At worst the Knight is overpriced for the damage it puts out, at best it costing 55 points more than the RIptide (95 points more if we give it a gun that doesn't suck) is completely unjustified.

 Ailaros wrote:

gmaleron wrote:I disagree, the Wraithknight is vastly superior to the Riptide in many ways

They get -1W and -2T, but they get a 2+ armor save and a 5++, ignore terrain in the movement phase, can fire in someone else's overwatch, has way better weapons and wargear, including a large blast Ap2 interceptor weapon that basically cancels deepstrikers, and is an elites choice, rather than HS.

And it has an 84% chance to go into god-mode where it can get a 3++ (for a MONSTROUS CREATURE), can do double damage, or shoot and then move up to 24" for free.

And did I mention the part where the wraithknight is 50% more expensive?

How was the wraighknight "vastly superior" to the riptide again?

So biased, so wrong.

You forgot that the riptide also has -4 S, -2 WS, -1 BS, -3 I, -1 A and -1 LD.
You cannot ignore more than half the stats when you make even a general comparison. durability wise, riptides are slightly similar to wraithknight, but in any other way, he isn't.

Then the knight has 2 S10 guns, and S10 is a rare commodity.
And he ignores terrain when moving just as much, so not sure why THAT was brought up.

The "84% chance to go into god-mode" is first thing first a 66% (no clue how you possibly got 84% 1-2 is a fail, not just 1. your tau player is cheating.), with the other 33% just hurting yourself for no gain, and than again its not "god mode" its a CHOICE between superior defense, or an approximate 50% increase in damage output (not double, 50% increase.) and given how without the IA upgrade (who is the source of all problems in riptides) the damage output you are increasing to begin with is not even that good for a model of that price (8 S6AP4 shots and a twin-linked GK grade gun, hardly overpowering for base 185 points) and "moving up to 24"" is insanely random and done after shooting is complete, so you cant respond to a bad roll by eliminating the threat. its choose one, not all three. mobile, durable or decent firepower. can't have them all.

The math was done. the riptide does NOT do any considerable damage with the HBC unless the directs the NOVA into the guns non-stop. the numbers where ran as a non-equipped riptide, and even he fails to get good damage output compared to its price, upgraded riptides will only do worse when it come to kill per point.

Can we stop having this argument every two months where people insist the riptide is OP as feth from any possible angle and then I just make them look like idiots when I mathematically prove that they are in fact just versatile but not actually mathematically more efficient than your average unit in anything when prices are compared without the IA upgrade? not offense, nor defense.
Get a hint, the IA is broken as feth, but the riptide platform is not.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You cannot ignore more than half the stats when you make even a general comparison.

You can when the majority of those stats don't matter. At range the Wraithknight is killing a single infantry-model per turn on average or knocking a single HP off an AV12 vehicle on average- that's garbage compared to what a Riptide can do. Having native strength 10 and more attacks in close-combat is irrelevant because close-combat is always less efficient, even on a 12'' move chassis, than simply chilling in your deployment zone and doing just as much if not more damage. Getting into melee range puts you in danger of being in double-tap range of plasma/grav and tarpit units, which are both things that you don't have to worry about if you're doing all your damage from the other side of the board. Even if you are feeling daring, you can take the free melta-gun +1 upgrade and pop vehicles then JSJ away out of assault retribution.

The fact of the matter is that the Wraithknight is grossly less efficient than the Riptide point-for-point, and trying to argue the distinction between the Ion Accelerator and the Riptide itself is not only incredibly pedantic but it's also intellectually dishonest. It's like arguing that the Wave Serpent isn't overpowered so much as the serpent shield is. The Accelerator costs 5 points, dude. The heavy burst cannon might as well have not even been apart of the 'tides loadout, as there is not a single reason to ever in life take it over the IA beyond pity for your opponents.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Backfire wrote:
The old Suit armoury was nearly perfectly balanced: you could make your suits BS4, but it cost you Multi-tracker. Or you could buy good weapons set, but then you were BS3 and dependant on Markerlights. Or you could buy both for Team Leaders and Shas'vres, but it would make them expensive. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs.
Now, I don't say that everything should stay always the same, but what they did in the new book was to remove nearly all tradeoffs. Since you can now include nearly anything you want to your Crisis suit with no penalty at all except points, equipping them to match your needs is no longer challenging or interesting.

I have to disagree here. The number of multi-tracker players were so bigger than the other configurations you posted that Vetock decided to make it the base config. Missing 'tradeoffs' is like missing the old talent tree system in WoW - sure, you could have much more customization than the used today, but the number of people following the most useful tank/heal/dps choices were so big that everybody were THE SAME. Basically all Retribution Paladins had points in what the internet said it was the most dps-y, as Restoration Druids followed the most heal-y and Blood DKs the most tanky. Only very few people used different configs.

Never played WoW, so the example goes above my head.
Basically, what was done to Crisis suits was same what was done to Carnifex in 5th edition Tyranid codex: add most of the popular stuff to the base cost and remove all the options. I mean, most people use those options anyway, might just reduce the clutter and put them in permanently? That sure proved to be popular change, no?

....no.

Disagree with the Multi-trackers btw - in 5th edition at least, Deathrain (TL Missile pods) configuration was nearly as popular as Fireknife.

 Vector Strike wrote:

So, there's no point missing the old possibilities when barely someone made use of it. Hammerhead tanks with Target Lock and multi-tracker, on the other hand, wa a staple in Tau builds and are now gone (seems ike vetock wanted to give more spotlight for Crisis).

Well if that was the goal, it sure worked out great. LOL. One almost never sees a Crisis suit these days except in Farsight lists.

Seriously, you're giving way too much credit for Vetock. He didn't have any kind of master plan how to change the army, he just didn't care. He was not familiar with Tau beforehand, it's blatantly obvious with the lore, much of which conflicts what was estabilished previously, or how the army's dynamics changed, how the wargear changed (Seeker Missiles, Shield Drones etc). In fact, he probably believed he was making Hammerhead better! "Target lock? Surely no one uses this and rules can be confusing. Burst cannons? Just make them twin-linked, much simpler [ignores the fact that SMS is now better at everything for same cost]. Multi-tracker? Man, the Markerlights are so much better now, they don't need a Multi-tracker! [ignores the fact that blasts can't fire Snap shots]. Hey, lets make Hammerhead cheaper, that'll make Tau players happy!" Note how non-Tau players never get that either: "Hammerhead got cheaper, so it got better, right? -No. -But even if it's worse, you can take more as it's cheaper! -No I can't, it's restricted by HS slots. -But you can take other stuff for other FOC slots! -Sigh..." etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Get a hint, the IA is broken as feth, but the riptide platform is not.

As I explained already, Riptide is broken in many ways, of which its points efficiency is only one part. But lets break it down even more:

-Biggest problem is the 2+ save. In general, monstrous creatures should not have 2+ save, unless they were really special (unique Bloodthirster character etc). This is because many common heavy weapons like Missile Launchers, Battle Cannons and Autocannons are AP3 or worse.

Imagine hitting a tank with a Krak Missile. On an AV13 tank, you need 5+ to glance and 6+ to penetrate, which is guaranteed to reduce fighting efficiency of the tank (no longer one-shot it, but you can still Immobilize, or stun which is often just as good). A hit has 33% chance of reducing a "wound" (most vehicles have 3), and 16.67% chance of doing something more useful which reduces it's combat efficiency. Seems reasonable, Krak Missiles are meant to kill tanks. It's even better with Battle Cannon which has Ordnance rule, again reasonable, it's a whopping big gun!
Now, lets fire the same weapon at Riptide. Surely a battlesuit doesn't have equivalent protection for a main battle tank, right? I mean, a Battlesuit which has legs and arms and much less internal space must make serious compromises with level of protection, shape of armour etc.
Well, good news is you have 2+ chance to wound. But wait...Riptide has 2+ armour save. Your missile has only 13.89% chance of making a wound. Worse, you do not have any chance to make extra damage. Riptide won't get stunned or shaken, or immobilized, will retain full use of it's weapons until it loses its last wound. Which it has 5. Even Monoliths and Land Raiders have just 4. Oh and it can take Feel No Pain...and what about Battle Cannon? Sorry, that Ordnance Rule which is so devastating against vehicles does nothing extra against Monstrous Creatures. Your Squadron of LRBT's does almost nothing against a Riptide.

But what about weapons which ignore that 2+ save like Lascannons? It's not so great for Riptide then, right? Well, a Lascannon still wounds on 2+ and ignores the armour save. But wait, Riptide has 5+ inv save. Lets ignore Nova thingie for now. So your chance of wounding it are 55.56%. Not bad, huh? But what about a tank? Well, Lascannon causes a "wound" at 4+, penetrates at 5+ in which case it can one-shot the vehicle at 6+. So, your chances of wounding the tank is 50%, and chance of causing extra damage is 33.33% Not much difference here - except for the fact that tank has 3 Hull points, Riptide has 5 wounds. So even against Lascannons, Riptide is more durable.

But hey! Riptide can be hurt by small arms fire, while a tank can't! Well, this much at least is true. However, it's not so great. Lets say a squad full of Marines Rapid fires the Riptide, causing 14 Boltgun hits. With 6+ to wound, that turns on average 2.333 wounds, to which Riptide gets 2+ save. Thus you end up causing about 0.39 wounds on average. Admittably it's better than nothing, but hardly anything to write home about.

I could go on and on, next one would be about Riptide armament ("Why does a battlesuit have equivalent gun to a main battle tank?") but I think the point is clear. Riptide breaks how the fiction is modelled on a tabletop. And don't come to tell me that "it's a game with aliens and superhumans in space, things are not meant to make sense". Things HAVE to make sense somehow, otherwise why bother even having any kind of fictional universe and thinking up fictional reasons about who can do what and why? Just do whatever units you want and have them fight each other.
As an example, why don't Space Marines carry Demolisher cannons? I mean, there is no rule which says infantry can't carry or fire Ordnance weapons. It would be very useful for them - especially if you give them Relentless! Imagine walking down the battlefield, raining S10 AP2 large blasts on enemy! "But it would be overpowered!" Well, not necessarily: lets make them expensive in points. "But if Space Marines could carry them, then what point there is to have Vindicators?"
Well, there you go.

Sigh. not these washed up arguement again, I am tired of debunking them. they are always somehow using schoringers riptide (where all setups, all gear and all nova abilities are somehow on at once) to make sense.
Or depend wholy on the IA to make any sense, while claiming the problem isn't in the IA.

First, as I proven on multiple occasions, as the HBC tide needs to NOVA non-stop, and on top of it he hurts himself quite a bit with high RoF gets hot guns-he in fact deals no less than 4.66 wounds to himself (!) during a game. if he does not, his damage output is just not that good.
That is absurdly high, it almost killing itself on average rolls.
Even WITH 6T 5W and termie grade armor, he is not in fact very durable. he is easier to kill than most MCs because a single double-tap from plasma means he is within the self-kill realm. a shooting from a proper anti-termi equipped squad (multiple S7+ and AP2 shots) will take him within the turn 3 self-kill realm with ease, making him unable to risk NOVA much,
Not because his stats are not incredible (the are), but because they are not enough to sustain him through his own actions (because the side effects are brutal).

Second-not taking much damage from missile lunches is silly, as they are a poor weapon choice to begin with. the lascannons are a better example but it ignores the fact that the tank costs less to begin with, so its natural it will get damaged easier, and that the riptide does not really have 5 wounds, but effectifly only 0.33 wounds by the end of the game, or 2.66 by turn 3. suddenly that is not that much, suddenly its less than the tank.
As for tanks taking extra damage and riptide does not-pinning and other moral tests work on riptides, but not on tanks. so he can take "extra damage" too. people seem to forget how much moral attacks are common because "everything worth anything is fearless or ATSKNF, so these stuff are useless."-guess what-riptides are not.
Naturally you can choose not to NOVA and solve the whole problem, but then you find yourself in the next problem.

Third, the HBC is not firing from across the table. yes, it has decent range and with aftermoves its not an easy catch, but not across the table.
Also, its not a gun worthy of a "main battle tank" as you proclaimed, its when overcahrged (a risky play) a heavy 12 S6AP4 rending, gets hot gun. three gets hot assault cannons. its good, but not overwhelming.
And when your overcharge is off its just a heavy 8 S6AP4 gun. far away from the realm of tank grade guns. not a bad gun by all means, but not a 180+ points gun. and for the riptide the gun is everything, if you don't have the dakka and no CC threat-you can be ignored.

Common theme between these three major flaws you guys outright ignore every thing you speak of the riptide-the IA completely negates them, as he no longer needs to NOVA all the time, does not get hot on a high RoF-so its durability skyrockets to the written values from the virtual ones, and his gun suddenly IS a tank grade cannon without NOVA. that's why I KEEP trying to push sense to people and educate them that the IA is the problem.
Another common theme is that you completely miss these, as you never encounter an HBC riptide, as the IA is an auto-take OP choice that nearly all riptide uses take as stock.
The riptide, using the HBC, is either a high daage output MC, or a super-durable MC. but you must choose.
The IA can be both at once, and that's why the problem lies in the IA itself and how absurdly it fixed up each of the riptide's problems in both offense and defense at once.

Now lets jump to small arms fire. sure bolters are practically worthless against the riptide.
But mid-level guns?
low S rending shots-works on riptides, not on tanks.
Plasma? works on riptides, not on tanks.
Grav? works better on riptides than on tanks.
Every LD based attack, any low S high RoF tactic (horde shots),



Lastly, "CC is always worse" is a fallacy. by that logic a single grot is better than a gunless dreadknight because it shoots better.
If 4 S10 AP2 attacks on WS4 I5 is not enough for you to think of something as an assault unit, you are beyond the realm of reason. the wraithknight's damage does not come from the cannons, its from the fact he has cannons to do a bit of damage until he gets to you to use his abnormal CC stats that trumps anything short of a superheavy or highly spesific HQ builds (and often relic-dependent)
Your choice to ignore a whole aspect of the game just because you view it as underpowered is nothing but your own shortcoming. I initiate an assault almost every game, sometimes multiple assaults-and I am playing tau, the race that is unquestionably worse at it. not using a tool in your disposal because it does not win games by itself is absurd, you might as well forgo tank shocks (won me games), pinning checks (won me games as well) and every other situational mechanic.
Don't blame the mechanics to not give you enough tools when you refuse to even use the tools you are given.

Pretty much everything Backfire said. The man has been spot on about everything regarding the Tau. About the only thing a disagree with him about are the Crisis Suits.

The Tau codex is a codex that sort of sold its soul for face stomping power. The army's play style was radically altered by a new author who had no understanding of how the army actually worked, giving us the current version which is little more than a gunline army that can blow the other guy away from across the table. For a Tau player who waited years to get the cool 5e treatment other armies were getting, this was quite disappointing, even if the army is undeniably effective on the table top.

The old Tau codex was interesting. The entirety of the Tau army wasn't so much fast as it was nimble. Basic troops carried no heavy weapons but only rapid fire guns, enabling them to move across the board freely while still putting down close range fire. All the big guns were on the Crisis Suits, which could move fire and move freely with no loss of firepower, and on vehicles, which could move at maximum speed and fire all weapons for the cost of a 10 point upgrade. Even broadsides could move around and fire their weapons if you gave them an Advanced Stabilization System. The overriding theme of the army seemed to be that you did not have to sacrifice movement for shooting or vice versa, units could always do both to full effect. This made the army slippery as a fish (perhaps that was the original inspiration for the fish based names of the units) and very interesting to play on the table top.

Not that the army was perfect. The old Tau codex was filled with excellent ideas that just didn't work on the tabletop: sniper drones, photon grenades, EMP grenades, vespids, ethereals, seeker missiles, skyrays and of course markerlights. A lot of this was just due to sloppy implementation; the point cost and logistics associated with trying to get the particular mechanics to work simply was not worth it. Consequently, these units and wargear simply didn't get fielded, and points were instead spent on options that actually worked. Naturally the Vetock dex attempted to fix these items, but was only partially successful.

Markerlights in particular are troublesome. Awesome idea, but terrible implementation. They should have never been implemented as a shooting attack as the shooting rules simply do not accommodate them well. You really want to be able to apply markerlights to units before firing any weapons, which makes mixing markerlights with other weapons a dubious prospect and forces you to incorporate massive numbers of target locks to any units the that mix markerlights with other weapons. In particular, taking the Shas'ui markerlight option on the Firewarrior squad is downright useless, do to the combinations of BS3 accuracy, the heavy 1 profile and the added expense of a target lock. This is sad as it would be the most sensible arrangement in fluff. But game mechanics dictate you take markerlights in mass on units like pathfinders or drones and essentially fire them in volleys, which makes little fluff sense and results in fragile units that can removed in the first few game turns by any opponent with good target priority skills. This means that a Tau can quickly be stripped of its special abilities, which makes the already bland new codex army play even blander. It also puts even more emphasis on winning first turn, so you can cripple an opponent before they have a chance to even fire on your markerlight carriers. Markerlights are also heavy, which seems to go against the whole point of having infantry with no heavy weapons. Why limit infantry to small arms only to keep them nimble if you are then going to burden them with cumbersome markerlights that keep them in the same place? It is a decision that never made any sense in either codex.

At least in the old codex you could construct markerlight free armies and just get around all this nonsense as Backfire pointed out, but your shooting yourself in the foot if you avoid them in the current codex. The new codex is practically designed around them, which limits the range of effective builds you can field and allows your opponent to essentially remove all your armies unique abilities within the space of a couple of turns. It is a terrible mechanic that both Tau players and Tau opponents alike have come to hate and reflects the poor design of the Tau codex.

What they should have done is made markerlights the Tau's army wide special rule and never introduced Supporting Fire to begin with. Supporting fire is another awful mechanic that completely contradicts Tau fluff (no last stands or holding ground means you don't stand around to take overwatch to begin with) and is again hated by Tau opponents. Markerlights should have been removed from pathfinders a spread much more evenly about the Tau army, providing weaker but more consistent buffs to the Tau army. They also should use a better mechanic than shooting to enable them to be effectively used when spread throughout the army. Wargear like the vehicle target locks, vehicle multitrackers, A.S.S., etc. should have never been removed and Tau should have remained their old slippery, close range selves rather than this gunline abomination they have become. Unfortunately, GW simply didn't care enough about this army to even retain its basic playstyle.

I think the riptide is completely balanced for what it does until you give it an ion accelerator for 5 points. That weapon is clearly worth a lot more points. The HBC is meh and is a fun weapon but no where near as good as the ion accelerator.

The riptides main strength seems to be designed as a though harassment unit. The ion accelerator just made it a walking tank that is harder to kill (although I have yet to look at vehicle rules in 7th).

I agree Tau hate is overdone.

Our hatred must be directed towards Eldar, the insidious parasite that is slowly sucking the life, fun and balance out of the game. Not all Eldar, but those few TFGs are killing the game IMO

I've been agreeing a lot with Backfire and Phanixis. The new codex is just trash, even if it is "broken" on the tabletop it took away everything I used to like about playing Tau in the first place, and pigeonholed everyone into playing with a boring static gunline and spamming an $85 eyesore of a model. Tau really lost their "soul" with the new codex, and I honestly don't believe they'll ever get it back because GW just doesn't give a feth anymore.

If I still played I'd be asking everyone if I could use the old codex. And really, would anyone say no? No riptides, having to actually use up all my markerlights and decide between either getting the BS boost or Ignores Cover instead of both, or being able to run a list that doesn't even have markerlights in it at all, and actually moving out of the deployment zone because I don't have to decide between moving or shooting but can pay points to do both...

I also like your point about markerlights, Phanixis. It was a cool idea that never really made sense the way GW implemented it.

I would say no. HELL no.
I played the old codex, every fight was an uphill fight even against the most ineffective lists, many things were abnormally overcosted and there was practically no room for making your own lists.

The old codex was bland and unintresting, and even more pigeonholed into static gunlines.
The broadside was your bread, butter and jam. nothing else in the codex was actually worthwhile other than for fluff reasons. 3x3 broadsides were the norm, and in this age when you can get multiple FoC the army would become "as many broadsides as you can and enough shas'el and fire warriors to unlock them"

Yes, the hammerhead could move and be cool at that. but the broadsides are packing an even more accurate version of the same gun for less than half price-so why bother? it was gimping yourself for a stylistic choice, that's not a meaningful decision.

You can say what you want about the new codex being forced into gunlines, but its not. I do not play gunline, I never even tried.
Yes, it CAN gunline. so can other armies, and in a full-shooty army on a limited sized table its a logical strategy, but it can play mobile forces much better than old codex too.
Crisis suits are meaningful, and if enclaves can be taken in great numbers. fire warriors are useful now and can do effective FoF again, piranhas are great mobile roadblocks, there is a meaningful mobile marker unit now (the drones, who used to cost 30! each and could not be buffed)
So what if the tanks are less mobile? hammerheads do not care, they have effectively infinite range, skyrays don't need to get so close and are meant to hold a position and pick targets from there and devilfish is first and formost a transport. we didn't lose much with the loss of the tank multi-trackers and target locks.

Heck, the old codex even had "forced picks" in the form of at least 1 suit commander and at least 1 FW team. forced choices are NEVER a good idea when it comes to allowing a flexible army.


As for "No riptides" why is that a good thing? riptides are cool. spamming them makes the army look silly, but 1-2 in a big force is thematic and awesome.
Same can be said for many units. wraithknight spam, impknight spam, even dreadknight spam. every "big guy" spam is silly, but a few big guys are cool.

Markerlights. are not perfect in preformance, but I've yet to see a better system offered by anyone.
Sure, some of the non-networked probably should be networked, but that makes the upgrade a bit into a "+0.5 team BS" upgrade, and I'm not sure that's the desired result.


So no, the new tau codex is not pegionholed into gunlines, I play it nearly strickly as mobile strike force and I'm having a blast with it, with a decent win record as well.
It took away nothing that was meaningful in any way. it enabled many units and tactics who were outright self punishment. (the majority of the old codex fall under this definition)
The riptide is far from an eyesore. its a cool centerpiece for an army, though it need not be spammed, or even taken at all if you do not like the style. I'm only running one, and even that is a new addition-and I manage perfectly well with a single one, as I have with none at all. being given an option is not pigeonholing you to anything.

Short summery-with minor exception, everything in the new codex is superior to the old one. both in balance, meaningful choices, and style.
No more Do I punish myself when I want crisis suit spam. no more are non-shield drones waste of points and carbines a joke, no more are my fire warriors tax, sniper drones, piranhas and skyray are actually considered, the characters are no longer idiotic, kroot are not just speedbumps and a slew of new units give me much breathing room to pick and chose my own methods.
Yes, there are a few mistakes (devilfish could use the speed gear, HYMP and IA are too good, interceptor is too easy) but the new codex is far, FAR better compared to the old one when it comes to building an army, no matter if you want a static gunline, or a mobile strikeforce-BOTH are valid tactics.

I think Tau are just boring.

Regardless of their strength, I just think they have an incredibly dull playstyle.

They could be the most interesting thing in the world to the people playing them, but to the people playing against them it's just not fun.

I think their strategy is to narrow, and there are just too many things they ignore. Cover? What's that? Oh, you're out of LoS? Yeah, we just ignore that. But, have fun trying to shoot us after we've shot you then jumped behind a piece of terrain. Night Fighting? HA!

I think the problem is that there isn't enough to their strategy, so they have to be ludicrously good at it and ignore a lot of rules just to make it work. To the point where it becomes "Tau - We min-max, so you don't have to."

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I agree Tau hate is overdone.

Our hatred must be directed towards Eldar, the insidious parasite that is slowly sucking the life, fun and balance out of the game. Not all Eldar, but those few TFGs are killing the game IMO

Anyone who plays Eldar/Dark Eldar combo for the sake of having Fortune on the guy with Shadow Field is TFG.

I feel a need to respond to this.

Night fighting is already "HA!" for everyone. stealth. that's it. in any distance. it more often won't change anything that it will.
Units that already have stealth literally gains nothing.

Ignoring LoS. no. there are 3 things in codex tau that ignore LoS
SMS-a S5AP5 gun mounted on broadsides riptides and tanks, not a bad one, but not cheap spammy one either. nor a big threat to most things.
AFP-a 1-per-detachment gun that is basically S5AP5 barrage at 18", you never see it because its pointless.
Seeker missile-an LoS ignoring krak missile is good, but requires a markerlight that does not ignore LoS to be scored first, and its one-use.
Every army with proper artillery (barrage weapons) can ignore LoS better than tau. IG and codex marines for easy examples.

JSJ-not the only army that can do this. not even the best at it. CWE does it better, DE has such units too. its not that big of a thing. and with short ranged on most crisis guns I find myself using it more as a gapcloser and chase tool than a "peek, shoot, hide" mechanic.

Ignoring cover-yea, that one is true. tau are the absolute best at it. slightly too good even. but even on this department, other armies have their own things that ignore cover, just not as efficiently. and its just one aspect of a big game.

The tau can truly ignore only one rule-cover, by heavy markerlight usage.
But the "base army"-the codex marines? basically ignore deployment rules with drop pods, list building rules with combat squads and moral rules with ATSKNF-how is this different? why is that getting no flak what-so-ever?

People always blame tau for ignoring alot of rules, but in all honestly, its one of the armies with the least number of rule ignoing powers.
Cover is a powerful rule to ignore, but its one of many.

I´ve never had issues with Tau. Sure they are powerful but beatable, quite easily sometimes too. Occasionally you get games where a single SM Smashbane gets inside the Tau firebase and decimates 700 points worth of models. Then again, I play a drop pod alphastrike list so perhaps it´s better suited against Tau than say, another gunline list since Tau just do that better.

-Redacted-

The old codex was bland and unintresting, and even more pigeonholed into static gunlines.

Ok I have to call BS on this. The old codex had exactly three units that couldn't fire on the move, and 2 out of those 3 came with qualifiers:

Broadsides - Could not fire on the move unless you took A.S.S., at which point they could. They were slow, but they could nevertheless fire to full effect.
Pathfinders - Could not fire markerlights on the move, but still packed pulse carbines which could fire on the move.
Sniper Drones - The only unit in the codex that could genuinely do nothing if it re-positioned.

In practice this really meant there were only two immobile gunline codex choices, as the A.S.S. was usually an autotake. Outside if these choices, everything could move at full speed without sacrificing firepower.

Now lets compare this to the new codex. Loss of the multitracker means all codex vehicles save piranha are limited 6" or are forced to make snap shots, so our high-tech skimmers or not faster than foot infantry when laying down fire which is patently ridiculous. The aforementioned broadsides lossed their A.S.S. and are now truly static gunline units. The skyray might as well be a static unit, as it cannot even fire both markerlights at full BS if it moves at all, let alone its missiles are secondary weapon systems. While still clearly inferior in the old codex, the Skyray used to be able to move at cruising speed and fire everything. Even the supposedly fast units have extra speed restrictions thanks to changes in the way attached gundrones work. Piranha actually have to slow down to 6" to fire to full effect while gundrones are attached, likewise the Sunshark Bomber has to slow down to 18" to fire its drones, which make of the majority of its firepower, to full effect. This is the only aircraft in the bloody game that has its movement restricted in this way. What units that are mobile are largely legacy units from the old codex, Stealth Suits and Crisis Suits retain their jetpacks and hence are still mobile. The riptide was fortunate enough to retain its battlesuit jetpack ability from the smaller models and is the only major reprieve in the codex in terms of mobility. Otherwise the codex has largely been retrofitted to have the army just camp in some ruins/fortifications and shoot the enemy across the map from a fixed position, using supporting fire rather than movement to dissuade assault units.

The broadside was your bread, butter and jam. nothing else in the codex was actually worthwhile other than for fluff reasons. 3x3 broadsides were the norm, and in this age when you can get multiple FoC the army would become "as many broadsides as you can and enough shas'el and fire warriors to unlock them"

Again this is simply not true. When I first started playing 40k in 4e it was actually very common to have mechanized Tau builds that used 3 hammerheads and no broadsides to remain rather nimble on the battlefield. It wasn't until 5e parking lot builds with 12+ AV12+ hulls starting showing up on the table top that Tau had to invest heavily in broadsides. This is less a problem with the Tau codex than a particular form of counterplay required to counteract a rather extreme army build on the part of your opponent, and it was hardly unique to Tau. For instance Orkz often wanted to run maxed out Lootas for exactly the same reason, but I would hardly fault the design of the Ork codex for this particular need. And even in the face of such extreme builds, I was often able to get away with much more mobile 2 hammerhead, 3 broadside, 3 x 3 deathrain+ builds and succeed against these parking lot armies.

It also useful to point out the Broadsides with HYMP are still far and away the best option in the codex, even outperforming Riptides in my opinion, and are now completely static.

You can say what you want about the new codex being forced into gunlines, but its not. I do not play gunline, I never even tried.

Sure you can still build a mobile force, but it is clearly not what the codex was intended to do. A lot of your options are thrown right out when you do this, and you tend not to make any use of your army wide supporting fire ability. You are essentially fighting the codex design when you do it.

So what if the tanks are less mobile? hammerheads do not care, they have effectively infinite range, skyrays don't need to get so close and are meant to hold a position and pick targets from there and devilfish is first and formost a transport. we didn't lose much with the loss of the tank multi-trackers and target locks.

Well for starters if you are trying to build a mobile army then it helps a great deal if the tanks are also mobile. Mobile hammerheads do a great job of getting those secondaries in range and can often circumvent obstructing obstacles that would obstruct LOS or provide cover for your opponent. Speed also lets you avoid assaulters and melta gun units and place obstructing terrain between yourself between your tank and long range tank hunters. Then again, as somebody who claims to be playing exclusively mobile Tau armies, you should already know all this. I find it quite perplexing are inquiring into the benefits of doubling the movement speed of the hammerhead while you are championing the merits of a mobile Tau army.

Heck, the old codex even had "forced picks" in the form of at least 1 suit commander and at least 1 FW team. forced choices are NEVER a good idea when it comes to allowing a flexible army.

I don't think anyone said the old Tau codex was perfect, I certainly never made that claim. I will even admit that it fixed certain units, see ethereals for that. My complaint, and that of Backfire and Sidstyler is that it very clearly hamstrung a lot of the army and promoted a static gunline, and that has nothing to do with some of the corrections to underpowered units that were found in the codex.

Markerlights. are not perfect in preformance, but I've yet to see a better system offered by anyone.

I have actually put a lot of thought into this and devised two separate systems that would be superior to the existing one.

The first system would be to enable each markerlight to place either a +1 BS or -1 Cover Save counter on a single enemy unit at the beginning of the shooting phase. This would not be a shooting attack, but sort of an pre-shooting phase action that could be taken regardless of movement based firing restriction and would still free the markerlight carrier to shoot at a separate unit in the shooting phase. During the shooting phase, any unit shooting at an enemy with counters on it would benefit from the stated bonuses. As individual markerlights are clearly more powerful as they do not miss half the time and the bonuses are persistent throughout the shooting phase, far fewer markerlights in total would be available to the army. However those few markerlights could be distributed throughout the army without issue and your opponent could not neutralize your markerlight capabilities to taking out one or two key units. Markerlight range could also be reduced to compensate for their increased power and durability, forcing the Tau player to play more aggressively if he wants to make optimal use of them.

The other system was just to reduced markerlights to a sort of debuffing aura. Basically, when firing at an enemy, you can give the shooting unit either +1 BS or -1 Cover Save for each markerlight within 18" of the target. Much like the previous case, markerlights would be much more limited and spread throughout the army, and the close range would again force aggressive play. The rules are kind of strange in the way they are abstracted as a single markerlight could potential effect multiple enemy units (although this can be mitigated by keeping the range on them short) but would be incredibly simple to use rules wise. Basically, you just want to overlap key enemy units with as many "auras" as possible in the movement phase, which makes this approach very dynamic.

Yes, there are a few mistakes (devilfish could use the speed gear, HYMP and IA are too good, interceptor is too easy) but the new codex is far, FAR better compared to the old one when it comes to building an army, no matter if you want a static gunline, or a mobile strikeforce-BOTH are valid tactics.

I think you are confusing good internal design of the codex with the luxury of being able to take suboptimal choices due to poor external balancing. After the 4e Tau codex came out, there was a massive codex arms race resulting in 5e codices with clear gameplay advantages over their 4e counterparts, and even some of the late 4e codices such as Orkz and Demons had considerable advantages over our Tau. But top tier 5e codices such as IG, SW and BA were always an uphill battle. Winning against codices with such a clear advantage over your own in a competitive environment required highly optimized builds. Any suboptimal unit had to be eliminated if you wanted any chance of winning, and this resulted in an optimized mono-build: kroot for troops plus the mandatory FW squad, crisis suits for elites (and usually deathrain+ at that), broadsides and hammerheads for heavy, a commander for the HQ and nothing in FA (unless you were allowed to run Tetras).

When the 6e Tau codex dropped, Tau switched from a bottom tier codex to a top tier codex. By virtue of the change in external balancing, it is now the older codex of our opponent that is forced to optimize against the Tau, while the Tau have the freedom to experiment with sub-optimal units because they no longer require every possible advantage to win against codices that clearly out gun them. The fact that the Tau have the luxury to choose sub-optimal units thanks to this switch in poor external balancing has been confused with the fact that their are no sub-optimal units or that their are no optimal builds with Tau, but this is far from the case. If our codex again gets sorely outclassed in the codex arms race in the future, we will once again be forced into a mono-build, despite the supposed design improvements in the codex. I will even go out on a limb a specify what the optimal build is: sniper kroot with a single hound for troops, riptides with IA and EWO and fusion blasters for elites, broadsides with HYMP and SMS and either EWO or VT for heavy, pathfinders or marker drones for FA, an iridium buffmander for HQ and some additional fusion blaster crisis suits as needed. Sure you don't have to build this way, but your likely crippling yourself for stylistic reasons if you don't build this way. The only difference between this codex and the other is that currently you have the luxury to cripple yourself for stylistic reasons thanks to the combination of poor external game balance and a top tier codex.

ASS wasn't included in the codex because it was no longer needed with the inclusion of Snapfire.

Good rundown Phanixis, I never really played Tau before 6th/7th edition so its interesting to see how far they have come, the only thing I disagree with I the fact that Tau are a Top Tier Codex. Now in 6th Edition the Tau were a top tier Codex, but again it was only because the builds could be enhanced by Eldar or taking an IC and allying it with a MC, which are no longer legal.

In regards to the current (7th) Edition I would have to rate the Tau as a Top Middle Tier book for a few reasons, but wen comparing them to the other armies out there:

-Eldar/Dark Eldar: The already Top Tier book is now enhanced by DE and vice versa. Want a Deep Striking squad of Wraithguard with D-Scythes that don't scatter? Or Howling Banshees and Striking Scoprions in Assault Vehicles? Not to mention Psychic powers now being afforded to the DE.

-Imperial Factions: I have looped them all together for the sole purpose of their Allying capabilities which I feel makes them all EXTREMELY powerful in their own right. I feel that this is overlooked sometimes but their ability to ally is what makes the Imperial Factions stronger then the Tau as any army can get a Knight, Grey Knights or any vehicle or flyer they desire. Not to mention they can all take Drop Pods now even!

-Chaos Demons: I have them here because despite their randomness they can still bring a lot that can decimate Tau armies, including gunlines in the form of FMC spam, psychic powers, strong and fast beasts, ect. Also the ability to bring even more pts. of models on the table during the course of the game can go a long way in effecting the strength of a Tau army.

-Necrons: Their durability on top of very nasty shooting of their own makes them better then Tau in a lot of aspects but would have to say that they are tied with Tau in this spot overall. People like to point to our own long range capability but tables are not so huge as to having a solid 24inch range force would not be a hazard to the Tau.

Now you have to look at the edition we are in, Vehicle armies are now becoming the norm and in that regard it means the decline of Gunlines and their effectiveness, this goes for Tau. In regards to the units the Tau have that everyone complains about the most:

-Markerlights/SMS/Ignore Cover: Yes they are good because they can ignore cover and are probably the best at the game at it, but as mentioned above there are a lot of things in the game that can do so from other armies that can break a lot of other mechanics as well. Not to mention Markerlights are pretty expensive (they do ad up) and are on T3 models with a 4+ save at best, they are not invincible.

-Riptide: Again I have to argue that despite people saying that its this invincible and scary MC it is not. I can somewhat agree to it being cheap base points wise, however it seems people neglect to realize how expensive it may get when you start adding systems on, and personally I still feel the Wraithknight is a much stronger and dangerous MC then the Riptide. I say this especially when regarding the Edition we are now in. With Vehicles becoming the norm once again it really effects the power of the Ion Accelerator, easily the weapon most people complain about. The thing is it is only S7 (8 with Overcharge) meaning it will still need a 4+ minimum to affect medium vehicles and then it has a 1/3 chance to hurt itself to try and make it stronger.

These are just a few observations I have made in regards to the Tau in 7th Edition, which is one the biggest reasons why I feel Tau hate is completely overdone and kind of ridiculous in some cases. Just to verify I am not saying the Tau are a weak army nor am I saying they do not have access to units and stuff that are very good, they deserve to just like EVERY Codex. I just feel that they are overhyped and feared to much for being a top Mid Tier Codex based on observations and personal experience playing in a VERY competitive store.

Case in point to everyone who says Tau hate is overdone. Played a guy last night who used his stealth suits to jump up on a building, blast my guys with his guns, then used his assault move to jump back behind the building out of LOS. He did this for 2 Turns. Please tell me how Tau hate is overdone...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I think Tau are just boring.

Regardless of their strength, I just think they have an incredibly dull playstyle.

They could be the most interesting thing in the world to the people playing them, but to the people playing against them it's just not fun.

I think their strategy is to narrow, and there are just too many things they ignore. Cover? What's that? Oh, you're out of LoS? Yeah, we just ignore that. But, have fun trying to shoot us after we've shot you then jumped behind a piece of terrain. Night Fighting? HA!

I think the problem is that there isn't enough to their strategy, so they have to be ludicrously good at it and ignore a lot of rules just to make it work. To the point where it becomes "Tau - We min-max, so you don't have to."

This. Yeah, they can mix in some CC, but for the most it's markerlights with Pathfinders, shoot with everything else. That and unlike most armies, it seems once their Pathfinders are gone they tend to fall apart.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Case in point to everyone who says Tau hate is overdone. Played a guy last night who used his stealth suits to jump up on a building, blast my guys with his guns, then used his assault move to jump back behind the building out of LOS. He did this for 2 Turns. Please tell me how Tau hate is overdone...

JSJ is not limited to the Tau Codex and can be countered with barrage weapons and getting in their face (which if your Dark Angels Ravenwing is pretty easay to do) and if they were Stealth Suits that means they only had an 18 inch range max so staying out of range isn't impossible. Just because someone utilized good tactics and the terrain does not make the army he was playing overpowered.

Verviedi wrote:

That guy has never painted a single army. He has grey orks, grey nids, grey Tau, and grey Chaos.

This guy is a Grey Knight.

Eldar and Dark Eldar both rely on cover saves to stay alive.

Tau have the most ready access to both interceptor and ignores cover in the game.

 gmaleron wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Case in point to everyone who says Tau hate is overdone. Played a guy last night who used his stealth suits to jump up on a building, blast my guys with his guns, then used his assault move to jump back behind the building out of LOS. He did this for 2 Turns. Please tell me how Tau hate is overdone...

JSJ is not limited to the Tau Codex and can be countered with barrage weapons and getting in their face (which if your Dark Angels Ravenwing is pretty easay to do) and if they were Stealth Suits that means they only had an 18 inch range max so staying out of range isn't impossible. Just because someone utilized good tactics and the terrain does not make the army he was playing overpowered.

Right, but when most of your army is able to jump in the Assault phase, its frustrating. When most Tau armies are made up of said jump units, then its stupid (the same applies to an all Eldar jetbike army).

Also, I would hardly call using a rule that in my opinion violates on the main game rules "good tactics". I will give you he used the terrain to his advantage, but I hardly would say he's a good strategist.

P.S. to clarify, my opponent is a great player, but spamming jump moves is hardly the makings of a great general

 jreilly89 wrote:


Right, but when most of your army is able to jump in the Assault phase, its frustrating. When most Tau armies are made up of said jump units, then its stupid (the same applies to an all Eldar jetbike army).

Also, I would hardly call using a rule that in my opinion violates on the main game rules "good tactics". I will give you he used the terrain to his advantage, but I hardly would say he's a good strategist.

P.S. to clarify, my opponent is a great player, but spamming jump moves is hardly the makings of a great general

Because he utilizes jump troops does no mean he is "spamming" in the slightest, if you look at ANY army you could accuse someone of spamming a particular unit, for example if you take a large number of Tactical Marines you are technically spamming guys with a 3+ armor save or ground pounders or if your running Ravenwing you are Spamming bikes. "Spamming" is part of the 40k game regardless of people are taking it for its rules, for the look of the model, the fluff ect. Its what happens in a game with limited units, there will always be some duplicate units.

And it IS a good use of tactics which means your opponent is a pretty good suit General, it is a random 2D6 so it could pay off for you or turn out horribly (ive had a mix of both) but the point is he is using his models to the best of their tactical ability making it a good use of tactics for his army. If he were not utilizing their skills to the best of the ability is what would make him a poor general.

And in regards to it being "a broken tactic" it really is not. You are basically running in the assault phase a random distance but it hardly is a broken game mechanic. It enables units of elite infantry (such as Crisis Suits) to either get back into cover or pull back from an enemy because they would not be able to hold up to a certain weapon from range or unit in CC. It is one of the things that makes the Tau unique, much like Battle Focus ability of the Eldar or being able to come in from Deep Strike turn one in a Drop Pod with Space Marines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar both rely on cover saves to stay alive.

Tau have the most ready access to both interceptor and ignores cover in the game.

Yes to some extent, however I would argue that the Eldar don't need it nearly as much with Wave Serpents and their Serpent Shields. And the Tau do have access to a lot of Ignore cover I agree, however both the Dark Eldar have access to Psychic Powers more then other armies, definitely more then Tau, its just one of their strong suits. And again you are paying quite a few points for those markerlights and as mentioned, people who tend to rely of them tend to fall apart. They are a useful aspect for the army but can turn into a crutch if relied upon, its a doubled edged sword.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Case in point to everyone who says Tau hate is overdone. Played a guy last night who used his stealth suits to jump up on a building, blast my guys with his guns, then used his assault move to jump back behind the building out of LOS. He did this for 2 Turns. Please tell me how Tau hate is overdone...

Umm, unless he was actively misusing the rules (not taking Dangerous terrain tests or equivalent), seems to me your opponent ought to be congratulated from smart tactics? Surely you are not complaining that Stealth Suits are overpowered? JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.