Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's no need to pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with you as "TFG".

I'm not preemptively labeling anyone, I'm labeling them after interacting with them and being told that I'm not welcome in their tournament/gaming group/whatever because I won't obey their arbitrary house rules about army construction.

I think the complete lack of limitations on what you can take at different points levels is a fundamentally broken system.

I agree that the game is broken with expensive "death star" units in low-point games, or with unbound lists in high-point games where you can spam dozens of copies of a unit. However, FW has nothing to do with this. All of those "what you can take" problems exist with codex units, so making rules about what is legal based on which book the rules were printed in does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.

...what exactly is wrong with people insisting you play by the rules THEY like when you are actually playing against them??

What is wrong is that their reasons are stupid and their policies exclude people for no good reason. I would see it differently if they were making changes to address a significant issue and improve the game, but all FW bans do is get rid of a particular set of units that one player doesn't want to use in their army. It's nothing more than "I get no benefit from letting you do this, so I'm going to limit your options and help my chances of winning".

People can't force you to do play by their rules when you aren't even playing against them. I feel like you're making a mountain out of mole hill.

Obviously they can't force me to obey their rules, but they can limit the number of gaming opportunities I get. This is not an irrelevant issue.

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's no need to pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with you as "TFG".

I'm not preemptively labeling anyone, I'm labeling them after interacting with them and being told that I'm not welcome in their tournament/gaming group/whatever because I won't obey their arbitrary house rules about army construction.

I think the complete lack of limitations on what you can take at different points levels is a fundamentally broken system.

I agree that the game is broken with expensive "death star" units in low-point games, or with unbound lists in high-point games where you can spam dozens of copies of a unit. However, FW has nothing to do with this. All of those "what you can take" problems exist with codex units, so making rules about what is legal based on which book the rules were printed in does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.

...what exactly is wrong with people insisting you play by the rules THEY like when you are actually playing against them??

What is wrong is that their reasons are stupid and their policies exclude people for no good reason. I would see it differently if they were making changes to address a significant issue and improve the game, but all FW bans do is get rid of a particular set of units that one player doesn't want to use in their army. It's nothing more than "I get no benefit from letting you do this, so I'm going to limit your options and help my chances of winning".

People can't force you to do play by their rules when you aren't even playing against them. I feel like you're making a mountain out of mole hill.

Obviously they can't force me to obey their rules, but they can limit the number of gaming opportunities I get. This is not an irrelevant issue.

On the third point in particular there is a good chance that the more vocal and domineering players are enforcing these rules and the quieter less confrontational players obey them. Just because a group of players all agree on a rule does not mean the majority are happy about it.

FW + Real life gun... then no one can refuse to play you.

 Pyeatt wrote:
FW + Real life gun... then no one can refuse to play you.

Well, they can, if they're OK with getting shot

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's no need to pre-emptively label anyone who disagrees with you as "TFG".

I'm not preemptively labeling anyone, I'm labeling them after interacting with them and being told that I'm not welcome in their tournament/gaming group/whatever because I won't obey their arbitrary house rules about army construction.

I think the complete lack of limitations on what you can take at different points levels is a fundamentally broken system.

I agree that the game is broken with expensive "death star" units in low-point games, or with unbound lists in high-point games where you can spam dozens of copies of a unit. However, FW has nothing to do with this. All of those "what you can take" problems exist with codex units, so making rules about what is legal based on which book the rules were printed in does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.

...what exactly is wrong with people insisting you play by the rules THEY like when you are actually playing against them??

What is wrong is that their reasons are stupid and their policies exclude people for no good reason. I would see it differently if they were making changes to address a significant issue and improve the game, but all FW bans do is get rid of a particular set of units that one player doesn't want to use in their army. It's nothing more than "I get no benefit from letting you do this, so I'm going to limit your options and help my chances of winning".

People can't force you to do play by their rules when you aren't even playing against them. I feel like you're making a mountain out of mole hill.

Obviously they can't force me to obey their rules, but they can limit the number of gaming opportunities I get. This is not an irrelevant issue.

I think the biggest legitimate reason that someone wouldn't want to play against FW stuff is the way the rules are presented. 40k is very much about knowing your enemy. You can know your own army as well as you like, if you have no fething idea what your opponent's army is but they know your army, you're probably going to lose.

Getting to know a FW army is significantly trickier than getting to know one of the standard armies because they are less common, their rules are harder to obtain and often have several versions over various (expensive) books and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules.

That's probably the main legitimate reason I think people wouldn't want to play against a FW army or FW models.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm not preemptively labeling anyone, I'm labeling them after interacting with them and being told that I'm not welcome in their tournament/gaming group/whatever because I won't obey their arbitrary house rules about army construction.

*snip*

Obviously they can't force me to obey their rules, but they can limit the number of gaming opportunities I get. This is not an irrelevant issue.

Well, you kind of are pre-emptively labelling them because your list of possible outcomes is "they concede and their rules are pointless or else they are TFG".

But either way, I still don't see why you'd desire to play against people who act like that. To me it's no loss to be excluded from a group who would decide they're going to exclude you and be dicks about it. I've stopped playing in certain groups for the sole reason I didn't like the way the people acted. They weren't excluding me at all, I just didn't like the behaviour so I stopped playing there.

40k is a social game, the game itself is pretty crap, the only reason I play it is to get together and have a laugh with mates.

That's why I mostly see it as irrelevant I guess... because either you get people who are willing to discuss it and figure out a solution, you can't come to a solution so you mutually decide to not play a game (and no one has to be "TFG") or else you get dicks who are rigid and unyielding (lol) and then who gives a crap because I wouldn't want to play against them anyway

"and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules"

Then ask FW. Its not tricky.

The old "the rules are difficult to get hold of" excuse is quite tiresome though - they are available on the internet to order, you can find out, easily, where the rules are for the army, and you can *gasp* ask to have a look threough your opponents IA before you play, or get the to talk you through the main points of their army. Social interaction, again...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules"

Then ask FW. Its not tricky.

The old "the rules are difficult to get hold of" excuse is quite tiresome though - they are available on the internet to order, you can find out, easily, where the rules are for the army, and you can *gasp* ask to have a look threough your opponents IA before you play, or get the to talk you through the main points of their army. Social interaction, again...

I think you totally missed the point. Every FLGS I've been to carries a full range of the printed codices, so you can go read about an army before you play it.

FW books are expensive and though they aren't hard to buy, they do take time to get to you and just because you buy the one you THINK you need your opponent is probably the only one who (hopefully) knows which one you need for their specific army.

Of course you have the same problem with WD armies and digital only armies... and not surprisingly you get people who are less than happy to play against WD armies and digital only armies as well

You could borrow the appropriate book off your opponent before playing... not always the most practical thing in the world to do. I sure as hell don't lend my expensive books out to strangers.

Simply discussing the army in question is a good idea and one I'd suggest... you'll note that I've repeatedly championed the idea of discussion in this very thread shocking I know. Though I can understand why some people might not want to go to the effort.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules"

Then ask FW. Its not tricky.

The old "the rules are difficult to get hold of" excuse is quite tiresome though - they are available on the internet to order, you can find out, easily, where the rules are for the army, and you can *gasp* ask to have a look threough your opponents IA before you play, or get the to talk you through the main points of their army. Social interaction, again...

The rules only says they have to show the rules of a codex, not an IA book, nor what printing the books is. You would have to own more or less every FW book out there to be sure which one is he using and if it the one with newest printed rules.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
]FW books are expensive and though they aren't hard to buy, they do take time to get to you and just because you buy the one you THINK you need your opponent is probably the only one who (hopefully) knows which one you need for their specific army.

To be fair, only a few are particularly expensive, many are roughly codex priced, some are dirt cheap (i.e. Imperial Armour Volume 5 is half the price of a codex book right now...). Hell, you can get IA9, 10, and IA2 second edition in a bundle, for less than three codex books, and have tons of cool new units and some cool new army lists. Most of the books that are expensive not only include tons of new units for an army, they come with a new army list as well (e.g. IA 13 has CSM and Daemon units that aren't in the codex, and a Traitor IG army, and it's about 1.5x the cost of a codex).

Given that prices for basic Codex books currently are 250% of what they were seven years ago, the IA books no longer seem particularly expensive, especially if that price expansion keeps going at the same rate, codex books and IA books will be on par in a few years anyway. We've seen that convergence with other units, the new plastic Tempestus Scions and the repackaged Dire Avengers being identical in cost to the similar Death Korps Grenadiers and the like, and most FW characters being only a few cents more (maybe a dollar or two at most) than GW plastic clam-pack characters.

Makumba wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules"

Then ask FW. Its not tricky.

The old "the rules are difficult to get hold of" excuse is quite tiresome though - they are available on the internet to order, you can find out, easily, where the rules are for the army, and you can *gasp* ask to have a look threough your opponents IA before you play, or get the to talk you through the main points of their army. Social interaction, again...

The rules only says they have to show the rules of a codex, not an IA book, nor what printing the books is. You would have to own more or less every FW book out there to be sure which one is he using and if it the one with newest printed rules.

Or you could look up any of the handy lists online (such as the one on this very website) that tells you which book has the latest rules for which unit. This really isn't rocket science, if you can't figure that out in like 2 minutes of google-fu, then other problems are going to be more pressing and immediate.


All that notwithstanding, we get very similar problems with GW stuff. Right now we've got two different rules for Chimeras for instance. Codex: Astra Militarum says that Chimeras are 65pts with Lasgun arrays and two fire points, but Codex: Inquisition says that Chimeras are 55pts with no lasgun arrays and 5 fire points.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think the biggest legitimate reason that someone wouldn't want to play against FW stuff is the way the rules are presented. 40k is very much about knowing your enemy. You can know your own army as well as you like, if you have no fething idea what your opponent's army is but they know your army, you're probably going to lose.

IOW, the reason is "I'm afraid of losing and I'd rather ban your army than risk losing a game because I haven't had enough time to figure out how to beat you". It's just a game, not a high-stakes gambling event, spend a few minutes reading the FW player's rules before you start the game and then play.

Also, this would be a much more compelling argument if I didn't encounter so many people who don't understand codex rules for armies they don't play. For example, the guy who accused me of cheating when I told him that my (old codex) Chimeras had five fire points, or the many people who say "nope, what do they do?" when I ask them if they know how common codex units like LRBTs/Basilisks/etc work.

Getting to know a FW army is significantly trickier than getting to know one of the standard armies because they are less common, their rules are harder to obtain and often have several versions over various (expensive) books and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules.

Then read the book briefly before the game starts. If the FW player has their rules with them (like you should regardless of what sources you're using) this isn't a problem at all.

But either way, I still don't see why you'd desire to play against people who act like that. To me it's no loss to be excluded from a group who would decide they're going to exclude you and be dicks about it. I've stopped playing in certain groups for the sole reason I didn't like the way the people acted. They weren't excluding me at all, I just didn't like the behaviour so I stopped playing there.

I don't really want to play against them once I know how they act, but that doesn't justify their behavior. Even if I don't ever ask to come back I'm still going to be annoyed at the situation and wish they had been better people.

Makumba wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"and you may not know where to look for the most recent rules"

Then ask FW. Its not tricky.

The old "the rules are difficult to get hold of" excuse is quite tiresome though - they are available on the internet to order, you can find out, easily, where the rules are for the army, and you can *gasp* ask to have a look threough your opponents IA before you play, or get the to talk you through the main points of their army. Social interaction, again...

The rules only says they have to show the rules of a codex, not an IA book, nor what printing the books is. You would have to own more or less every FW book out there to be sure which one is he using and if it the one with newest printed rules.

Not true. They have to explain the rules for the units they are using, regardless of the publication they are in. If they refuse to do so, then you dont play them.

This is the only thing that comes to mind when I see people get so upset that someone else is disallowing forgeworld and yet still having fun.

HE CANNOT REFUSE YOUR POWER

Really the only reason people would not like FW is because of the superheavies and stuff (which IMHO still have no place in regular games). I doubt anyone is going to see a DKoK army and go "Nope, it's FW" and if they do they are just being unreasonable. Now if you wanted to field a Warhound Titan in a regular pick-up game I could see your opponent not being too happy with that, and to be honest I'd agree with them.

FW used to be unofficial because it also tended to be the broken/overpowered/untested stuff, and that stigma remains. It's kind of like in 3rd edition D&D there were a lot of third-party splatbooks that were just completely unbalanced (Mongoose's books spring to mind) and basically caused the majority of groups to outright ban third party material so they didn't have to go through individual things to see what was good and what was bad.

Same thing here. I don't think it's right to disallow all FW stuff just because it's from FW, but at the same time I think one of the worst things GW ever did for 40k is just have a blanket "everything is legal" because it makes someone who refuses to play against a Titan or other superheavy look like the bad person for "changing the rules".

 calarok wrote:
Its funny how the on the first page people were saying it was ok to play with forge world model and it wasn't illegal, just need to ask your opponent if it's ok with him. Now, 2 in a row are saying its completely illegal... (by the way's what the citadel book you are talking about? what page?)

Hi's there any good source of information or people that like FW are saying its ok and people who doesn't liked it are saying its completely illegal?

Funny how different people see things...

I wish all who have respond to this post are seeing why i am asking if its a "special" demand or if its ok to play FW without having problems with some player out their...

I think you're missing the point.

GW opened the floodgates to allow everything, and left it up to the players to sort out what kind of game they want.
You need to discuss what kind of game you want, and with what types of units to make the game enjoyable for both players.

Ask your opponent if they don't mind you using the Squiggoth, and show them the rules. It's more likely you'll get more games in with your Squiggoth this way.

Rather than not discussing it and going "Suprise !" and trying to make your opponent play it because of any 'legality'.

If one of my friends surprised me by showing up to a game with a new FW model, I would be thrilled. I would definitely let them field it for at least one game. If it was obviously on another level than what we normally play (like a Titan or LoW) I'd ask to leave it out on game 2, with the understanding that it will be fair game once I purchase a comparable unit.

Escalation among friends can be a blast. I'm still fairly new to the game, and love seeing models I haven't seen in person before.

Escalation among friends can be a blast.

To the head maybe. Nothing kills any setting faster then one or two dudes that can spend that have access to stuff other don't get. When I started to play MtG we always did drafts which were and are super fun. Only problem are those dudes that buy multiple boxs to pick the best booster pack combination or even bring two boxs of their own.

Not true. They have to explain the rules for the units they are using, regardless of the publication they are in. If they refuse to do so, then you dont play them.

If they are in a codex or rule book, neither mention IA as a source of rules. The ETC rules don't let FW be used either.

Then read the book briefly before the game starts. If the FW player has their rules with them (like you should regardless of what sources you're using) this isn't a problem at all.

Only you can ask them to explain when there are any rule questions, before the game you don't know what FW units do, unless you play FW units too. So of course you can check the rules durning the game and hope that the rules aren't experimental , out dated or the opponent has just a scan of it or print out, which both may be modified.

Hell, you can get IA9, 10, and IA2 second edition in a bundle, for less than three codex books, and have tons of cool new units and some cool new army lists. Most of the books that are expensive not only include tons of new units for an army, they come with a new army list as well (e.g. IA 13 has CSM and Daemon units that aren't in the codex, and a Traitor IG army, and it's about 1.5x the cost of a codex).

Sure dude on top of my codex , the ally codex I have to buy, the fortification codex, the rule book and LoW codex I need to know what rules they have, I have to buy FW books, with the 23% additional vat for books we have here and the crazy pound to zloty exchange rate no bank has ever had since the 1980s, at the above 3 codex cost just to check what if my opponent is cheating or not. Or how about I don't and buy an infinity army with it and actualy get to play games.

Or you could look up any of the handy lists online (such as the one on this very website) that tells you which book has the latest rules for which unit. This really isn't rocket science, if you can't figure that out in like 2 minutes of google-fu, then other problems are going to be more pressing and immediate.

Oh sure. Am going to stop the game in the middle of it. Go back home , check in which IA book the rules are , google search an illegal pdf. download it crossing my fingers it is the newest one and then take the 30min bus drive back to the shop to finish the game. Hope no othe rule questions will pop out after that.

It is the duty of the player to provide the rules for what they are using, so no, you do not need to but buy the IA book if your opponent is using FW units (and I won't even bother with adressing the 'need' for Stronghold, Escalation and Allies).

If you don't trust the person you're playing to have the right rules, then maybe you need to think again about who you're playing.

Makumba wrote:

Sure dude on top of my codex , the ally codex I have to buy, the fortification codex, the rule book and LoW codex I need to know what rules they have, I have to buy FW books, with the 23% additional vat for books we have here and the crazy pound to zloty exchange rate no bank has ever had since the 1980s, at the above 3 codex cost just to check what if my opponent is cheating or not. Or how about I don't and buy an infinity army with it and actualy get to play games.

Infinity being super cheap aside, you know what hobby you're getting into (and again, as noted, that "3 codex cost" gets you three books with way more content than most codex books).

Oh sure. Am going to stop the game in the middle of it. Go back home , check in which IA book the rules are , google search an illegal pdf. download it crossing my fingers it is the newest one and then take the 30min bus drive back to the shop to finish the game. Hope no othe rule questions will pop out after that.

Or you could expect that your opponent has the rules on them. *GASP*

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Really, you're going way out of your way to make this as absurdly overcomplicated as possible.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Sure dude on top of my codex , the ally codex I have to buy, the fortification codex, the rule book and LoW codex I need to know what rules they have, I have to buy FW books, with the 23% additional vat for books we have here and the crazy pound to zloty exchange rate no bank has ever had since the 1980s, at the above 3 codex cost just to check what if my opponent is cheating or not. Or how about I don't and buy an infinity army with it and actualy get to play games.

Infinity being super cheap aside, you know what hobby you're getting into (and again, as noted, that "3 codex cost" gets you three books with way more content than most codex books).

Oh sure. Am going to stop the game in the middle of it. Go back home , check in which IA book the rules are , google search an illegal pdf. download it crossing my fingers it is the newest one and then take the 30min bus drive back to the shop to finish the game. Hope no othe rule questions will pop out after that.

Or you could expect that your opponent has the rules on them. *GASP*

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Really, you're going way out of your way to make this as absurdly overcomplicated as possible.

Before I moved here, we had a guy at my old store who used the contemptor mortis dread, but the old superior rules. He had the book, but nobody knew it was toned down since. When a new guy called him out on it, he fought back and everyone took the good ol boys side, and the new guy never came back after coming a month straight every wed and sat. Then a week later someone on a whim looked it up and printed it out, and the guy acted like it was no big deal, and we could use whatever codex we want if we wanted against him. Had no remorse that he pretty much made someone shame quit, or at least find somewhere else farther away to try and play. So please don't try and make it out to sound like its just as easy to check up on the official gw codex, because that is a straight faced lie.

 Orock wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Sure dude on top of my codex , the ally codex I have to buy, the fortification codex, the rule book and LoW codex I need to know what rules they have, I have to buy FW books, with the 23% additional vat for books we have here and the crazy pound to zloty exchange rate no bank has ever had since the 1980s, at the above 3 codex cost just to check what if my opponent is cheating or not. Or how about I don't and buy an infinity army with it and actualy get to play games.

Infinity being super cheap aside, you know what hobby you're getting into (and again, as noted, that "3 codex cost" gets you three books with way more content than most codex books).

Oh sure. Am going to stop the game in the middle of it. Go back home , check in which IA book the rules are , google search an illegal pdf. download it crossing my fingers it is the newest one and then take the 30min bus drive back to the shop to finish the game. Hope no othe rule questions will pop out after that.

Or you could expect that your opponent has the rules on them. *GASP*

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Really, you're going way out of your way to make this as absurdly overcomplicated as possible.

Before I moved here, we had a guy at my old store who used the contemptor mortis dread, but the old superior rules. He had the book, but nobody knew it was toned down since. When a new guy called him out on it, he fought back and everyone took the good ol boys side, and the new guy never came back after coming a month straight every wed and sat. Then a week later someone on a whim looked it up and printed it out, and the guy acted like it was no big deal, and we could use whatever codex we want if we wanted against him. Had no remorse that he pretty much made someone shame quit, or at least find somewhere else farther away to try and play. So please don't try and make it out to sound like its just as easy to check up on the official gw codex, because that is a straight faced lie.

Where did I say that? I just said that it wasn't the absurd exertion it's being made out to be. Let's also put aside the "Official GW codex" nomenclature, because FW books are "Official GW" books as well, published by GW with GW copyrights and are written by GW employees who work at GW HQ, they're just sold through a different sales channel.

And honestly, most of that is an issue with the gaming group being jerkwads more than a problem with the rules themselves.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Sure dude on top of my codex , the ally codex I have to buy, the fortification codex, the rule book and LoW codex I need to know what rules they have, I have to buy FW books, with the 23% additional vat for books we have here and the crazy pound to zloty exchange rate no bank has ever had since the 1980s, at the above 3 codex cost just to check what if my opponent is cheating or not. Or how about I don't and buy an infinity army with it and actualy get to play games.

Infinity being super cheap aside, you know what hobby you're getting into (and again, as noted, that "3 codex cost" gets you three books with way more content than most codex books).

Oh sure. Am going to stop the game in the middle of it. Go back home , check in which IA book the rules are , google search an illegal pdf. download it crossing my fingers it is the newest one and then take the 30min bus drive back to the shop to finish the game. Hope no othe rule questions will pop out after that.

Or you could expect that your opponent has the rules on them. *GASP*

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Really, you're going way out of your way to make this as absurdly overcomplicated as possible.

Before I moved here, we had a guy at my old store who used the contemptor mortis dread, but the old superior rules. He had the book, but nobody knew it was toned down since. When a new guy called him out on it, he fought back and everyone took the good ol boys side, and the new guy never came back after coming a month straight every wed and sat. Then a week later someone on a whim looked it up and printed it out, and the guy acted like it was no big deal, and we could use whatever codex we want if we wanted against him. Had no remorse that he pretty much made someone shame quit, or at least find somewhere else farther away to try and play. So please don't try and make it out to sound like its just as easy to check up on the official gw codex, because that is a straight faced lie.

Where did I say that? I just said that it wasn't the absurd exertion it's being made out to be. Let's also put aside the "Official GW codex" nomenclature, because FW books are "Official GW" books as well, published by GW with GW copyrights and are written by GW employees who work at GW HQ, they're just sold through a different sales channel.

And honestly, most of that is an issue with the gaming group being jerkwads more than a problem with the rules themselves.

You say it like forgeworld is bought for fluff and looks, and not the power hungry WAAC players 90 precent of the time. Nobody ever shows up here and asks if they mind if they proxy their DKoK for guard, they show up with mechanicum 30k armies, rvanna riptides back when they were retardedly broken, saber platforms which are far better than points costs would indicate, land raiders with 5 hull points and immunity to melta, ect...

And before you bemoan and say not everyone is like this, these were all top sellers on launch for forgeworld for months, even outstripping new releases 2 or 3 months later with less compareable power. All everyone in our area has experienced is the super saiyan of WAAC players with it. And I imagine that is pretty common consensus considering how taboo it is in a lot of areas. Forgeworld users are a niche of a niche and probably make up less than 10 precent of 40k players total. And the ones who use it for fluff and fun as opposed to using for alternative power units to plug gaps in their power armies is even or probably higher.

You are going to have to learn to live with your stigma. People are ruining it for you every day. And only GW could fix that, but just saying "lol everything is ok in geam!" Means jack squat to everyone who has watched them throw all pretense of any kind of balanced game out the window in the hopes making rules like unbound will get lil timmy to shell out 150 bucks for that imperial knight to go along side his tau riptides.

 Orock wrote:


You say it like forgeworld is bought for fluff and looks, and not the power hungry WAAC players 90 precent of the time.

Unless you have something to back that up, I'm not buying that number. I've played in many events where FW has been allowed, and probably half a dozen major metro areas in the US and that's just not my experience. Maybe if you're just looking at Adepticon Gladiator...

I've been running a FW army lists for about two years now for most of my games. My win rate with them isn't stellar, either with a DKoK Assault Brigade or Armoured Battlegroup. Most of the time I see people running an FW unit, it's something like a single contemptor, Tau Hazard suits, or something like that.

Nobody ever shows up here and asks if they mind if they proxy their DKoK for guard, they show up with mechanicum 30k armies

Is there something about the AdMech list I'm missing here? I'd love to have an AdMech army...

rvanna riptides back when they were retardedly broken

Which were initial playtest rules at the time?

saber platforms which are far better than points costs would indicate

The ones that are Ld7 and snapfire at ground targets?

land raiders with 5 hull points and immunity to melta, ect...

The ones that are just under Knight cost and die like normal Land Raiders to Lascannons, Railguns, Smash attacks, etc?

And before you bemoan and say not everyone is like this, these were all top sellers on launch for forgeworld for months, even outstripping new releases 2 or 3 months later with less compareable power.

The R'varna was yeah, but again, experimental rules and nobody is going to be terribly butthurt if you say "I don't want to play that thing with test rules". Nobody is going to be butthurt either if you just don't like one specific unit. I've seen people refuse games against armies with codex units they didn't want to deal with, like Knights or Heldrakes. That's fine, it's when you just blanket deny everything just "because it's FW" as opposed to just not liking that one unit.

All everyone in our area has experienced is the super saiyan of WAAC players with it.

Which, going by the previous post, sounds like a gaming group issue rather than a FW issue.

And I imagine that is pretty common consensus considering how taboo it is in a lot of areas.

Usually, as just demonstrated by the Titan thread there was, a result of ignorance and/or people playing stuff wrong. Or they just hear "Forgeworld" and instantly think Titans...

If someone pulled out a Squiggoth like the one proposed by the OP I personally wouldn't mind. It would be fun to play.

I don't understand why people have trouble with this sort of stuff. I was recently part of a Facebook conversation arranging a friendly beginners game at a local gaming group. One guy said he'd like to play and suggested he being along his world eaters featuring Angron. Which is fair enough, but when it became clear that the people in the thread wanted a simpler, fairer game than that he suggested he bring a selection of his 9000pt ork list accompanied by a Stompa!

It's not a FW model, but we stopped the conversation there and set up the game privately instead.

Orock - please don't pull numbers out your butt like that. No, 90% of forgeworld is not bought for power. Counter example, the rvarna was in sale prior tot the rules being out, ditto sicaran. Both did extremely well prior to the rules. I know this for a fact, as I bought the tenth to go in sale (rvarna) at games day, and spoke to the designer about it. Biggest selling single tank? Macharius Vulcan, with one of he worst sets of rules ever.

The vast majority of forgeworld players I know buy the stuff cos it's cool. I won't be so crass as to make up a number, but the clear majority get them for the looks. Now, it cold be you game wi some dicks that would abuse otherwise, but if you can't see your group is quote the exception....

Hey guys, i didn't buy a Squiggoth to be OP.... Your so funny

Makumba wrote:

Escalation among friends can be a blast.

To the head maybe. Nothing kills any setting faster then one or two dudes that can spend that have access to stuff other don't get. When I started to play MtG we always did drafts which were and are super fun. Only problem are those dudes that buy multiple boxs to pick the best booster pack combination or even bring two boxs of their own.

Sounds like the issue is with you. Combination of boosters is highly unlikely to have any bearing on the relevance of a draft unless one set is drastically overpowered in relation to the others. Which assuming you are playing from the same block is extremely unlikely. Even then, it's still completely random, and even then, that booster is passed around the entire table and everyone gets cards from it.


It seems more as though you are the type of player who isn't good at handling your losses and try to find some external reason as to how your opponents got some advantage over you through external means, to blame when you lose. If you don't like people using FW you don't have to play it, however you are the person who is limiting yourself from a portion of the game and holding back your own capability to improve. I'm sure I'll get some response about blah blah blah titans OP and yeah there is some stuff thats OP and theres plenty thats not, you are the person blanketing the lot of it together, not I. Same imbalances exist in regular 40k anyway.

 Orock wrote:
Before I moved here, we had a guy at my old store who used the contemptor mortis dread, but the old superior rules. He had the book, but nobody knew it was toned down since. When a new guy called him out on it, he fought back and everyone took the good ol boys side, and the new guy never came back after coming a month straight every wed and sat. Then a week later someone on a whim looked it up and printed it out, and the guy acted like it was no big deal, and we could use whatever codex we want if we wanted against him. Had no remorse that he pretty much made someone shame quit, or at least find somewhere else farther away to try and play. So please don't try and make it out to sound like its just as easy to check up on the official gw codex, because that is a straight faced lie.

You're not really countering his point.
It's not hard to look up, a 5 minute google would point you to this list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Forge_World_and_Apocalypse_Rules_Index
With the following info: Contemptor-Mortis Pattern Dreadnought EL IA2 (2nd) SM, DA, TYL, SAV

Your issue is that everyone picked his side for no reason whatsoever.
You can't really blame GW/FW for a lack of effort from the players, cause seriously.. this group argued for a month without anyone having access to the internet?

 Orock wrote:
You say it like forgeworld is bought for fluff and looks, and not the power hungry WAAC players 90 precent of the time.

I too find it easy to win forum arguments when I make up ridiculous statistics to support my claims.

And before you bemoan and say not everyone is like this, these were all top sellers on launch for forgeworld for months, even outstripping new releases 2 or 3 months later with less compareable power.

I'm shocked that a giant anime robot sold well when GW has a popular army full of giant anime robots and the GW plastic giant anime robot kit the FW one was based on is also a big seller. Are the various space marine infantry kits (which have no special rules) on that top sellers list also overpowered and only bought for their rules? Or could it possibly be the case that popularity is not based only on rules?

You are going to have to learn to live with your stigma.

Translation: "LEARN TO DEAL WITH THIS STEREOTYPE I INVENTED FOR YOU AND STFU ABOUT IT."

Before I moved here, we had a guy at my old store who used the contemptor mortis dread, but the old superior rules. He had the book, but nobody knew it was toned down since. When a new guy called him out on it, he fought back and everyone took the good ol boys side, and the new guy never came back after coming a month straight every wed and sat. Then a week later someone on a whim looked it up and printed it out, and the guy acted like it was no big deal, and we could use whatever codex we want if we wanted against him. Had no remorse that he pretty much made someone shame quit, or at least find somewhere else farther away to try and play. So please don't try and make it out to sound like its just as easy to check up on the official gw codex, because that is a straight faced lie.

So a player lied and cheated, you trusted them instead of verifying the rules yourself, and you had problems with other players siding with the long-time member of the community instead of the new guy just because the new guy wasn't really part of the group yet. What exactly does this have to do with FW legality? Do you ban codex rules because someone with a pure codex army cheats?

Yeah Orock's argument is really weak and shortsighted. I'd recommend going back and rethinking exactly what your standpoint on the matter is Orock - everyone who owns a FW model is a filthy WAAC player grasping for some in game advantage that GW sells at a higher price than the rest? Ok. Let us know when you actually want to play miniatures.