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 SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah Orock's argument is really weak and shortsighted. I'd recommend going back and rethinking exactly what your standpoint on the matter is Orock - everyone who owns a FW model is a filthy WAAC player grasping for some in game advantage that GW sells at a higher price than the rest? Ok. Let us know when you actually want to play miniatures.

You know its bad when even I'm defending buying FW stuff for fun and fluff. It has nothing to do with "WAAC OP" stuff.

FW Top Sellers in September wrote:
10Mortarion The Reaper Primarch of the Death Guard
9 Horus The Warmaster Primarch of the Sons of Horus
8Legion MkIII Iron Armour
7Salamanders Legion Fire Drakes
6 Archmagos Draykavac / Archmagos
5House Terryn Upgrade Kit
4Cerastus Knight-Castigator
3The Horus Heresy Book Three: Extermination
2Imperial Armour Volume 4 - The Anphelion Project, Second Edition
1 Vulkan Primarch of the Salamanders

Hard to make an argument for power hungry WAAC making up 90% of FW sales when 50% of the top ten are units that don't exist in 40K, 2 out of 3 of the top three are books 30% are likely to spend most of their life as display models and one of them is just to make an existing GW kit prettier and another is simply alternate Tactical Marines!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I guess I have to concede..

That MK III Iron Armour? That's, like, totes broken, man, like, you don't even know!

A Game of Warhammer 40k should start with a mutual implied contract that the other player will not be an donkey-cave.

Yeah Orock's argument is really weak and shortsighted. I'd recommend going back and rethinking exactly what your standpoint on the matter is Orock - everyone who owns a FW model is a filthy WAAC player grasping for some in game advantage that GW sells at a higher price than the rest

Has to be a totaly different buying culture then, we have here. No one here would buy bad stuff, even less if they had invest in to books to run it. Sure there are people who buy and paint FW stuff, but those dude are mostly painters or do commisions . Pre nerf escalation gave my area 5 recast eldar titans , but that doesn't realy count as FW and not a single one of them was from UK.

Sounds like the issue is with you. Combination of boosters is highly unlikely to have any bearing on the relevance of a draft unless one set is drastically overpowered in relation to the others. Which assuming you are playing from the same block is extremely unlikely. Even then, it's still completely random, and even then, that booster is passed around the entire table and everyone gets cards from it.

Ok made an error here we call both real drafts and seal deck drafts . The dude that buy boxs just have a wider range of boosters to chosen from and it hard to check, if he opened 2x3 like everyone else or did 2x3+ and just picked the boosters with stuff he liked better.

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Connection is bad, often breaks up and checking anything then mails is hard AND you have to pay for using internet on a phone. And the problem is not him having a book, FW isn't accepted here anyway, but the fact that there would be very hard for me to check, if he is not cheating me. I could do it post game, but how does it help me, if I already lost?

Makumba wrote:
Ok made an error here we call both real drafts and seal deck drafts . The dude that buy boxs just have a wider range of boosters to chosen from and it hard to check, if he opened 2x3 like everyone else or did 2x3+ and just picked the boosters with stuff he liked better.

This is why you open the packs at the store with everyone else, you don't let people bring in a pile of cards and say "trust me, I opened these without cheating". It sounds like your problem isn't FW rules, it's that either you have too many cheaters to have a functioning gaming community or you're way too paranoid about the possibility of someone cheating and you're sacrificing the quality of your games as a result.

I could do it post game, but how does it help me, if I already lost?

Then you call the person a cheater and kick them out of the group. You sacrifice one game to find out that the person is not someone you want to ever play against again, and improve the overall quality of the community.

Makumba wrote:

Poland isn't exactly the boonies here, does nobody have a phone with internet capabilities to use google to check a list? If they don't have the appropriate book, then its no different than someone not having the appropriate codex.

Connection is bad, often breaks up and checking anything then mails is hard AND you have to pay for using internet on a phone. And the problem is not him having a book, FW isn't accepted here anyway, but the fact that there would be very hard for me to check, if he is not cheating me. I could do it post game, but how does it help me, if I already lost?

Really?

You have to pay for Internet on your phone?

Seriously, I'm a mobile phone retailer of over a decades experience, and I know that mobile network provision is Poland isn't significantly different from the UK, from having conversations with the many Polish nationals that live in the area and have come in to shops where I've worked and having needed to check on multiple occasions for UK nationals travelling that way.

Now, if you mean that your particular network doesn't offer great coverage where you game, that's one thing, but I'm beginning to harbour deep suspicions that you have no reservations in misrepresenting your gaming environment and the country you live in if it suits the point you're trying to make.

Remember, the Internet is the greatest repository of human knowledge to ever have existed, and many posters on here have real life knowledge outside of wargaming, if your going to make spurious claims be prepared that someone can easily disprove them should they feel motivated to do so.

I think one of the major issues at the heart of this matter is that players, regardless of type, do not want to spend six hours at a UN Summit conducting negotiations before a game. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, but we've hit a point in 40k's development where it is so incredibly easy for players to end up in grossly lopsided match-ups that the question of "Will I have fun with this pairing of armies?" is no longer a trivial issue. Nowadays it is very important to be clear about what both players' expectations are for the game, otherwise they run a fairly substantial risk of one or both players leaving unhappy.

The issue with FW is a perception of strength that may or may not be valid (depending on exactly what is being fielded), as well as an unfamiliarity with the rules which will necessitate further game delays as you read through all of the rules. Part of the issue as well, I believe, is the lack of Forgeworld products on the main GW site, which may contribute to the stereotype that they aren't "real" GW rules.

So what you end up with is the possibility of big delays combined with a fear of rushing into an un-fun game, which leads to the all-too-common result of players refusing to play.

Nevertheless, the real solution here is to better educate players about the rules both in codex books and IA. Unfortunately, the expense of the rules (or lack of access to/knowledge of "alternative" sources) means that many players may feel pressured into playing from a disadvantage. One solution that I think would go a long way to alleviate this would be to have all the official rules collected together, online, in one place (as well as having each book be entirely self-contained - any cross-book stuff would always be separate detachments, something FW sometimes has trouble with due to duplicate units/book updates). Having something like this would allow players to get a feel for possible opponents' lists at a glance, without having to go searching through a bunch of fluff/volumes/codices.

EDIT: Oh and by the way Azrael13, I can't speak for Poland, but in the States it's not uncommon to have to pay for internet on your smartphone. If I go over my data plan, my carrier charges me a fee. I know because it happened once when some idiot physically disconnected my house and I had to use my phone uplink to access the Internet

 Azreal13 wrote:

FW Top Sellers in September wrote:
10Mortarion The Reaper Primarch of the Death Guard
9 Horus The Warmaster Primarch of the Sons of Horus
8Legion MkIII Iron Armour
7Salamanders Legion Fire Drakes
6 Archmagos Draykavac / Archmagos
5House Terryn Upgrade Kit
4Cerastus Knight-Castigator
3The Horus Heresy Book Three: Extermination
2Imperial Armour Volume 4 - The Anphelion Project, Second Edition
1 Vulkan Primarch of the Salamanders

Hard to make an argument for power hungry WAAC making up 90% of FW sales when 50% of the top ten are units that don't exist in 40K, 2 out of 3 of the top three are books 30% are likely to spend most of their life as display models and one of them is just to make an existing GW kit prettier and another is simply alternate Tactical Marines!

To be fair, it could be people buying the 30K stuff in the hopes of being WAAC TFGers playing their 30K army against 40K, right (and they getting roflstomped by Eldar and Tau, anyway)? That's how it is supposed to work, isn't? Everything from Forgeworld is only for the purposes of being OP and broken?
Hell, there were people who claimed the Red Scorpions chapter tactics were OP.

 Xca|iber wrote:

Spoiler:

I think one of the major issues at the heart of this matter is that players, regardless of type, do not want to spend six hours at a UN Summit conducting negotiations before a game. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, but we've hit a point in 40k's development where it is so incredibly easy for players to end up in grossly lopsided match-ups that the question of "Will I have fun with this pairing of armies?" is no longer a trivial issue. Nowadays it is very important to be clear about what both players' expectations are for the game, otherwise they run a fairly substantial risk of one or both players leaving unhappy.

The issue with FW is a perception of strength that may or may not be valid (depending on exactly what is being fielded), as well as an unfamiliarity with the rules which will necessitate further game delays as you read through all of the rules. Part of the issue as well, I believe, is the lack of Forgeworld products on the main GW site, which may contribute to the stereotype that they aren't "real" GW rules.

So what you end up with is the possibility of big delays combined with a fear of rushing into an un-fun game, which leads to the all-too-common result of players refusing to play.

Nevertheless, the real solution here is to better educate players about the rules both in codex books and IA. Unfortunately, the expense of the rules (or lack of access to/knowledge of "alternative" sources) means that many players may feel pressured into playing from a disadvantage. One solution that I think would go a long way to alleviate this would be to have all the official rules collected together, online, in one place (as well as having each book be entirely self-contained - any cross-book stuff would always be separate detachments, something FW sometimes has trouble with due to duplicate units/book updates). Having something like this would allow players to get a feel for possible opponents' lists at a glance, without having to go searching through a bunch of fluff/volumes/codices.

EDIT: Oh and by the way Azrael13, I can't speak for Poland, but in the States it's not uncommon to have to pay for internet on your smartphone. If I go over my data plan, my carrier charges me a fee. I know because it happened once when some idiot physically disconnected my house and I had to use my phone uplink to access the Internet

Check your sarcasm detector, I think it needs new batteries.

Whether built into a plan or pay as you use, you always pay for data access one way or another.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Nevertheless, the real solution here is to better educate players about the rules both in codex books and IA. Unfortunately, the expense of the rules (or lack of access to/knowledge of "alternative" sources) means that many players may feel pressured into playing from a disadvantage. One solution that I think would go a long way to alleviate this would be to have all the official rules collected together, online, in one place (as well as having each book be entirely self-contained - any cross-book stuff would always be separate detachments, something FW sometimes has trouble with due to duplicate units/book updates). Having something like this would allow players to get a feel for possible opponents' lists at a glance, without having to go searching through a bunch of fluff/volumes/codices.

I certainly agree that easy and reliable access to the most up to date rules would be ideal. Unfortunately, FW or not, all of the rules are just getting to be too expensive for an individual player to be able to collect them all (legally). But, as you say, better education is very important. Too many people rely on internet hearsay and rumor. There are still people who think the Lucius drop pod allows the dreadnought to assault on the turn it arrives (which hasn't been true for some years, now).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
Nevertheless, the real solution here is to better educate players about the rules both in codex books and IA. Unfortunately, the expense of the rules (or lack of access to/knowledge of "alternative" sources) means that many players may feel pressured into playing from a disadvantage. One solution that I think would go a long way to alleviate this would be to have all the official rules collected together, online, in one place (as well as having each book be entirely self-contained - any cross-book stuff would always be separate detachments, something FW sometimes has trouble with due to duplicate units/book updates). Having something like this would allow players to get a feel for possible opponents' lists at a glance, without having to go searching through a bunch of fluff/volumes/codices.

I certainly agree that easy and reliable access to the most up to date rules would be ideal. Unfortunately, FW or not, all of the rules are just getting to be too expensive for an individual player to be able to collect them all (legally). But, as you say, better education is very important. Too many people rely on internet hearsay and rumor. There are still people who think the Lucius drop pod allows the dreadnought to assault on the turn it arrives (which hasn't been true for some years, now).

Considering how poor the dreadnought is anyways, it'd be a nice reprieve for the meleenaught.

Let me get this straight. People dont want to see the awesome forgeworld models on the table because they could potentially be cheated about the rules by their opponent?
My solution would be to find a different place to play if there are enough people that would do such stuff. If you cant just ask your opponent if you can have a look at the rules before the game and if he cant provide you with the rules for his models why the feth is he even unpacking them for a game?

The "balance" argument doesnt hold any water at all since we know that 40k isnt balanced at all ... so forgeworld doesnt make any difference here.

Its unbelievable how people are limiting themselves because of a false sense of entitlement.

 Azreal13 wrote:

FW Top Sellers in September wrote:
10Mortarion The Reaper Primarch of the Death Guard
9 Horus The Warmaster Primarch of the Sons of Horus
8Legion MkIII Iron Armour
7Salamanders Legion Fire Drakes
6 Archmagos Draykavac / Archmagos
5House Terryn Upgrade Kit
4Cerastus Knight-Castigator
3The Horus Heresy Book Three: Extermination
2Imperial Armour Volume 4 - The Anphelion Project, Second Edition
1 Vulkan Primarch of the Salamanders

Hard to make an argument for power hungry WAAC making up 90% of FW sales when 50% of the top ten are units that don't exist in 40K, 2 out of 3 of the top three are books 30% are likely to spend most of their life as display models and one of them is just to make an existing GW kit prettier and another is simply alternate Tactical Marines!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I guess I have to concede..

That MK III Iron Armour? That's, like, totes broken, man, like, you don't even know!

I will never get tired of seeing made up statistics being undeniably shut down to an earth shattering degree. Exalted.

^ what that guy said.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Check your sarcasm detector, I think it needs new batteries.

Well you see, my sarcasm detector is solar-powered, and I was posting at night... so yeah, let's go with that.

 calarok wrote:
Can he say no?

Yes, your opponent can refuse to play your for any reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:
In tournaments players are bound by the rules they accepted when enlisting.

Actually s/he can still refuse. If he wants to take the loss & possibly be removed from the tournament. I've seen people refuse the final game before because their opponents list didn't look like it'd be a fun game & they'd rather just get home early. Unsportsman like sure, but I can understand.

Everyone: Stop saying he can refuse for any reason, what you guys are thinking?i dont know that? like if i am going to ducktape my oppenent to the chair and force him to play ?

Their is something like 10 guys who say he can refuse because of your t shirt... thats why theres is 100 reply on the post. 50 will have been enough without those comment.

I was asking more about a legal, rules,sportship reason.. thank to the other who respond something usefull!

 calarok wrote:
like if i am going to ducktape my oppenent to the chair and force him to play ?

Well, you know, if that's your thing.

Who are we to judge?

 Blacksails wrote:

 calarok wrote:
like if i am going to ducktape my oppenent to the chair and force him to play ?

Well, you know, if that's your thing.

Who are we to judge?

You must be a pro psyker to play while duct taped to a chair


The original question was valid, but the smartest answers aren't unexpected, either. There is a section in the rulebook called "Spirit of the Game". If more people would just read that again and be reasonable, people would probably enjoy the game more

40k (and almost any game for the matter) is all about the social contract between 2 players. You have to be mutually in agreement to play.

P1 - hey, want a game?
P2 - sure! 40K?
P1 - Yup, 1750 ok?
P2 - no probs, I would prefer battle forged though
P1 - all good. Happy with that - you ok with my FW (insert unit here)?
P2 - you got the rules handy for me to read?
P1 - here you go!

See how easy that is!

Of course someone can say no to many points in the above but the key is an open dialogue. When you both agree the game is much easier as the expectations are met on both sides. Telling the opponent its your tourney list would be good manners, as would be using a FW unit. This again sets expectations as they know what type of game they are in for.

Thanks! Now I know how to socialise





Pretty sure that's not what the OP is asking

The thing is there's no legal or rules debate. You can house rule whatever you want. Anyone can say "Well the rules say this so I can" and the opponent can just say "Yeah but I don't want to play that way, so let's find other opponents".

It's like D&D, my players can kick & scream that "the book says I can draw any number of cards from the deck of many things I want" Yet I can say "feth off, DM says otherwise, you get ONE card"

So strictly within the confines of the BRB no, he cannot refuse because you brought forgeworld, but saying "well these are the rules too bad" makes you sound like a dick.
Also any TO can say "no forgeworld" and that's that, no forgeworld. The rules are more like guidelines that can be changed, if you don't like the changes someone plays with, don't play them.

Personally I see no issue with that sportsmanship wise. I want to enjoy the game, my opponent wants to enjoy the game. If we wouldn't enjoy playing each other why would we?

Besides your question was Can he say no? ot "My opponent can't refuse?" and anyway you slice it the answer is yes, he can say no & yes he can refuse. If you want to tout "Well its in the official rules so you're wrong" argument, that's fine. You'll just come off as a dick. The #1 rule is have fun, and if your opponent doesn't have fun playing against FW stuff then he is fully within the rules to refuse.

I found your comparison really bad... D&D, really? their is a DM, the god of the rules! The DM is always right, their is no such thing in W40k!

Please stop posting answer like : He can refuse if he want for any reason! ( DUDE, TRUST ME, I KNOW!!)

That wasnt the main question... or the main answer a was looking for (because i had my answer several time in this thread)

 calarok wrote:

Please stop posting answer like : He can refuse if he want for any reason! ( DUDE, TRUST ME, I KNOW!!)

That wasnt the main question... or the main answer a was looking for (because i had my answer several time in this thread)

Don't post on a public forum, if your looking for a answer. As your not likely to get the one you want unless you post on the "tow the line forums". Becouse it seems you don't like the answer.

Is "they are jerk for not playing vs. my FW unit I just put on the table without asking first" closer to what you want. Otherwise the answer they can refuse for any reason is that best answer.

we have all sorts of players here, some like to power game, some like casual, none care about FW legality (ok one did, but that was purely from a WAAC angle and he admitted that was the case as he isn't shy about admitting it lol) we all have some FW models and I regularly play 30k vs 40k, and I also play 40k FW vs normal 40k.

the FW OP argument is dead and should remain so, FW hasn't been op since 3rd and that was only due to selling just super heavies at the time, some units are op, but 40k is much much worse in that manner.

all that said there is ettiquite, to consider, you cannot just turn up to a game and dump things on people and expect them to play, its insulting and making it seem that you have little respect for there feelings or opinion, inform them before hand that you intend to use a new unit (codex or FW it exactly the same) and let them read the rules.

hope this helped and good gaming

 calarok wrote:
I
That wasnt the main question... or the main answer a was looking for (because i had my answer several time in this thread)

Your main question is in the subject: My opponent can't refuse?
The end all no arguments answer is yes, they can refuse.

If you're looking for a specific answer don't post. And in 40k there is a main DM. It's called you & your opponent. If I want to ally Chaos daemons & grey knights I am free to do so If me and my opponent agree. D&D and 40k are both rule systems. Rule systems free to be changed, modified & rewritten however you and your opponent / the TO want.

if you want a game with rigid iron clad rules with no room for interpretation go play chess.

Like i said, they were at least 10 good answer/opinion about my question. All good. Few of them wasn't usefull at all...

I am keeping my point, bad exemple to use D&D... really not the same thing...

Why not take it along and still surprise your mates with it, and then suggest to play with it if anyone fancies, to see how it goes in play?

 Happyjew wrote:
It is highly unlikely that when an Ork player tells his opponent "I'm bringing a LoW next week" he is referring to a Transcendent C'Tan.

Unless he really really wants to win of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd be happy to see a Squiggoth.

And then I would table you because it's a really weak choice.

I don't think I can be pissed when my opponent doesn't cheat+win.

Since Squiggoth is neither cheat nor win, I don't mind.

Apparently, some people get all sandy when FW is mentioned, or Imperial Knights, or non 6x4 tables.

 calarok wrote:
Like i said, they were at least 10 good answer/opinion about my question. All good. Few of them wasn't usefull at all...

I am keeping my point, bad exemple to use D&D... really not the same thing...

If the thread has answered your question, stop replying to it and let it die. Otherwise yes, you will get the same answers given to you over and over again.