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Hi guys!

I order a big sqiggoth from FW last week and i have an important question. I am planning to field it quite soon and i didnt tell anybody that i will bought this awsome model. I was wondering if i need to ask my opponent to field some FW model because the rules and stuff are in FW book... Is it like when we play unbound? Can he say no?

Where could i found a official answer?

thanks!

What?

Your opponent can refuse to play you if he doesn't like your t-shirt, or if he doesn't want to play against FW, or Gretchin for that matter.

As strange as it may sound, you can't actually force anyone to play with you.

He can refuse for any reason he wants, but he can't complain your list is illegal.

As above.
However the REASON for why he refuses you should not be "FW is illegal", cause that is no longer the case.

In tournaments players are bound by the rules they accepted when enlisting. In friendly play anyone can do as he like. If you field an army I do not wanna play I just won't play it. I will have to live with the consequences (such as you being pissed off and others who notice it labeling me - rightfully - as a sissy).

In short: communication, baby. Talk to your opponent. If he doesn't want to play vs FW stuff maybe you can ease his fears. Or you can offer him a mirror match with your stuff next time, provided you trust him with your minis.

Really, you need permission for anything in any game. If someone doesn't want to play against Abaddon or Grots or Eldar, they don't have to play it. Forgeworld isn't any different really. Some people get weird about Forgeworld so sometimes it's best to give them a heads up, but really (and especially as far as GW in concerned) FW stuff is no different than anything else.

I think you guys catch me wrong.

I am not getting in any weird over power unboud army. Its just that i want to surprise one of my opponent and i dont want im to see my squiggoth before the game. Just for a little surprise. I am sure their is no problem with im but if i play against other people. i wanted to know if FW models and rules was the same as the models in my codex (if i play with the organisation chart, no one can really say a thing...nobody will complain if i have 1 hq and 2 troop... come on guys...) or if it was more like when you play unbound ( you need to ask permission). I know before it was not really legal and everybody was complaining about FW in regular game...

exactly as Thairne says, it was " illegal" but no more. where those it say that? where dos it mentionned that i can use FW in any game and its ok?

Isnt a squiggoth a gargantuan creature?

do you have the rules for the model? if it has a "40k Approved" stamp its legal.

Having said that, turn it around, what if your opponent suprised you and dropped a warhound titan on the table?

 calarok wrote:
I think you guys catch me wrong.

I am not getting in any weird over power unboud army. Its just that i want to surprise one of my opponent and i dont want im to see my squiggoth before the game. Just for a little surprise. I am sure their is no problem with im but if i play against other people. i wanted to know if FW models and rules was the same as the models in my codex (if i play with the organisation chart, no one can really say a thing...nobody will complain if i have 1 hq and 2 troop... come on guys...) or if it was more like when you play unbound ( you need to ask permission). I know before it was not really legal and everybody was complaining about FW in regular game...

exactly as Thairne says, it was " illegal" but no more. where those it say that? where dos it mentionned that i can use FW in any game and its ok?

I think you missed the point

Your opponent can say "I'm not going to play because it's sunny outside", You can be refused for anything under the sun, including "I don't want to play your gargantuan creature". What everyone is getting at is that while you can be refused for basically any reason, "Your model is not legal" is not one of those reasons. Would probably pay to mention that you would like to bring it along and see if he/she is ok with it.

I think it's common courtesy to forewarn your opponent that there'll be a Gargantuan/SH on the field ahead of time, as was said above, imagine if your friend surprised you with a Warhound or a Transcendant C'tan.

There's definitely been a change in attitude to FW units in threats few years, but, for example, a Decimator isn't a Squiggoth so it's probably better to ask, he may feel obligated to allow you to try your surprise giant model that you're excited about but that doesn't mean he'll enjoy it.

Also, in my experience, you don't need permission to play unbound.

I would advise against it. I would ask if it's okay with your opponent if you field a super- heavy. That way you won't go into a game he has absolutely no chance of winning and make him mad so that he'll never want to go against it again.

But if he's got stuff to at least fight it you'll both have more fun

Our point is simple.
He has just as much right to refuse to play against a Squiggoth as to Ork Boyz from a rules-point.

One player may freak out because he thinks it's awesome while another might freak out and refuse to play.
An opponent can't say your list is illegal, but he can still refuse to play because he's whining over it.

If you want to surprise him - I can totally understand that, take a pic of his face for us - just make sure you bring an alternative list without it. This way you can offer him to chicken out and make it more probable for him to accept the challenge.

You have to successfully perform the Blood Ritual of Binding.

Should the Dark Lord find your offer pleasing, your opponent will have no choice in refusing to game with you...forever.

This thread illustrates perfectly why 7th ed was a bad idea, and why I don't game outside of a group of close friends

If it's a close enough group that you feel it'd be cool to surprise them with it then it's probably a close enough group that they'd be happy to play with you at least once

If you are really concerned, just let him know you got a new unit you would like to try out. Don't tell him what it is, just let him know to expect a LOW, next game.

This way you still get to surprise him with the model, and he isn't left unprepared.

How do you prepare for a LoW. If someone said he is bringing a ctan to next weeks game, there is not much you can do about it. Sure one could technicly buy a new army or new ally, but that is a lot of money..

I'd say you would have to show him the rules for it.

As a strictly FW player myself the last thing I would want to do is just show up and thrash someone who has never heard or encountered a FW unit or army.

I'd say you aren't likely to get someone to just play against your Squiggoth without looking through the rules unless they are good mates with you and are not serious

So I'd say if you want to be able to rematch the players you verse with your Squiggoth, I suggest you let them have a look at the rules.

Makumba wrote:
How do you prepare for a LoW. If someone said he is bringing a ctan to next weeks game, there is not much you can do about it. Sure one could technicly buy a new army or new ally, but that is a lot of money..

You can't always prepare. However, if a person only plays a few armies, you can expect somewhat what sort of LOW they are bringing.

For example, an IG player is most likely bringing a giant tank. An Eldar player more than likely bringing a Titan (although some of their SH tanks are friggin sweet). Tyranids will be bringing a Gargantuan Creature. It is highly unlikely that when an Ork player tells his opponent "I'm bringing a LoW next week" he is referring to a Transcendent C'Tan.

I thought he was just bringing a Squiggoth, not a Garguantan Squiggoth.

From 'Choosing Your Army' in the Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

So if both players agree not to use Forge World, then Forge World is 'illegal' for that game. If the players can't come to an agreement, then no game occurs (and probably for the best).

No list has ever been "illegal", barring tournament and club rules, who are still going to place their own limitations on what they'll allow at an event.

40k is what you make of it, whether that's codex-only, FW or homebrewed. Your opponent must agree. The whole "legal/illegal lists" only came about because GW is really bad at communicating its intent - it's quite similar to how the community invented the whole "canon setting" fantasy.

None of this is new in 7E. What Games Workshop did was making it progressively clearer what they actually wanted, and what their vision for the game was. From the previous edition's rulebook:
"With the points limit agreed, players need to pick their forces. The best way to do this is to make use of the army list in the relevant codex, although, of course, players are free to either adapt the army lists or use their own systems as they wish."

The thing is that the more your list deviates from what the people you play with perceive as "the norm", the less likely they are to say yes. So it should be in everyone's interest to talk these things through before setting up a big game and then throwing a fit because nobody wants to play due to various surprises you brought to the table. Explain, ask, and hope they say yes. Simples.

Bartali wrote:
This thread illustrates perfectly why 7th ed was a bad idea, and why I don't game outside of a group of close friends

Pretty much.

OP, your opponent can refuse to play you for any reason they want. If you bring a Squiggoth and go "Surprise I am fielding this LoW!" and they don't think it would be a fun game, they can decline a game. Your army isn't illegal because you're fielding the Squiggoth, and technically you do not have to ask permission to bring one. However it's generally considered polite to not bring superheavies or things like that to a game without letting your opponent know beforehand or, at the very list, asking them if they're cool with it. While they might be legal models it doesn't mean that everyone enjoys playing against them. This might not be a big deal if you play with a close-knit group and one-upsmanship is something you do (e.g. I see your 3 Riptides and raise you a Revenant!), but if you want to just turn up at a store and field a Squiggoth just because you can, it's pretty much a d-bag move and you shouldn't be surprised if people ask you to not field it or if you are adamant about it refuse to play against you.

Think of it this way: Would you rather demand to use a Squiggoth and end up with no game at all, or not use the Squiggoth and get a game?

The only time someone is compelled to play against you (or concede) is a tournament, where everyone agrees to the tournament rules. In this case, bring what you want as long as it's permitted in the tournament (which might have limits or exclusions on certain types of units).

Otherwise, as pretty much everyone else has stated, if you field a legal unit that your opponents generally feel they don't want to play against, the real consequence is that you may have fewer people who want to play against you, and it's not like you can force them. It's gonna be a pretty sad game if your opponent is using the units from Dark Vengeance

The other thing is, there are usually some people who like/want games with exotic units. Seek them out!

Wow! Thats a lots of reply!

Ok, don't get me wrong about all this, i am not doing this to broke the game, its a squiggot (stop saying its gargantuan, its just monstrous...) its just a lovely model a little bit expensive for what it is. Plus, i am playing with a group of friend and i know they will all have something to bring down this beast.

I just wanted to know if in the community, bringing a FW models (with the rules with me) to a game was nice, acceptable and legal like any other unit in the codex or cheesy and not really acceptable.

Its funny that the comment of Sheokronath didnt make any reaction. As stated in the 40k 7th edition rulebook page 116: players must agree how they are going to select their armies. Its ure that you need to ask your opponent if you play unbound. I think its even more broken then if you put a forge world model... Imagine 10 helldrake no troop and thats more ok to fild then a FW models?

My main question was exactly as Thairne said it

However the REASON for why he refuses you should not be "FW is illegal", cause that is no longer the case.

I just wanted to make sure i can legally ask my opponent (friend or stranger) to play my squiggoth without being a "special" demand. Where i play, one guy told me that i can play FW model like my squiggoth or a Super Heavy Tank for exemple without having any problem because forge world is now accepted by GW and its cool. A other guy told me it was super cheasy and it was not nice to play model from Forge world because they are not in the original codex of the army and its not really stated by games workshop that you can play FW models.

Thats what i wanted to know...

 calarok wrote:
Wow! Thats a lots of reply!

Ok, don't get me wrong about all this, i am not doing this to broke the game, its a squiggot (stop saying its gargantuan, its just monstrous...) its just a lovely model a little bit expensive for what it is. Plus, i am playing with a group of friend and i know they will all have something to bring down this beast.

I just wanted to know if in the community, bringing a FW models (with the rules with me) to a game was nice, acceptable and legal like any other unit in the codex or cheesy and not really acceptable.

Its funny that the comment of Sheokronath didnt make any reaction. As stated in the 40k 7th edition rulebook page 116: players must agree how they are going to select their armies. Its ure that you need to ask your opponent if you play unbound. I think its even more broken then if you put a forge world model... Imagine 10 helldrake no troop and thats more ok to fild then a FW models?

My main question was exactly as Thairne said it

However the REASON for why he refuses you should not be "FW is illegal", cause that is no longer the case.

I just wanted to make sure i can legally ask my opponent (friend or stranger) to play my squiggoth without being a "special" demand. Where i play, one guy told me that i can play FW model like my squiggoth or a Super Heavy Tank for exemple without having any problem because forge world is now accepted by GW and its cool. A other guy told me it was super cheasy and it was not nice to play model from Forge world because they are not in the original codex of the army and its not really stated by games workshop that you can play FW models.

Thats what i wanted to know...

Then short answer: Yes you can legally ask your opponent to play your squiggoth without it requiring his permission (being a "special" demand). However, your opponent is within their rights to say "No" and then you have a choice to either not play the Squiggoth or not play that person.

Thanks Wayne, shortest and precise respond!

 calarok wrote:
Its funny that the comment of Sheokronath didnt make any reaction. As stated in the 40k 7th edition rulebook page 116: players must agree how they are going to select their armies. Its ure that you need to ask your opponent if you play unbound

You've misread it. Page 116 isn't saying you need permission to use an Unbound army. It's saying that players need to agree how they are going to select armies - whether to use points limits, or some other system.

If you choose to use the army selection system in the rulebook, then both Battle Forged or Unbound are equally legal options. Unbound isn't an 'alternative' system. There are simply two different methods of building an army.

I just wanted to make sure i can legally ask my opponent (friend or stranger) to play my squiggoth without being a "special" demand..

And the answer is: It depends.

The only place that GW have actually stated that Forgeworld stuff is 'legal' for 40K is in Forgeworld publications, which some people feel is not actually sufficient.

For others, regardless of how technically 'legal' Forgeworld stuff is, their unfamiliarity with Forgeworld units and the comparative difficulty of obtaining their rules makes them not as welcome on the table without advance warning.

So it really comes down to the people you play with and how they feel about the whole thing. I would definitely advise against just plonking your Squiggoth down on the table with no prior discussion about how Forgeworld stuff would be received unless you are really friendly with the people you are playing.

Yeah op already said it but I'll reiterate to put an end to the confusion. He's using a Squigoth, the overpriced MC that's the size of a Tervigon. He's not using the Gargantuan Squigoth that's bigger than a Hierophant.