Star Wars EU

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**Relapse**

Just watched "The People VS. George Lucas". Now I can see how it is the EU got as much drive as it did.

**Yodhrin**

Ketara wrote:
Yodhrin, I can see where you're coming from. I do however, disagree that that is what she's actually saying. I believe she's made an adequate distinction between:

-'arguing passionately', as you put it, and
-'people who genuinely get upset/enraged over something'.

As things stand, you believe she is referring to both of those things, put yourself in the former category, and thus believe she is talking about you.I however, having read and re-read, think that she is only referring to those in the latter category, and therefore excluding the issue that you are referring to. And therefore do not believe she is a 'wonko bint' as you put it.

I suppose it's one of those cases in which text is quite simply not sufficient as a medium to necessarily convey what your meaning is. I'd personally be inclined to think that given the context (it being written in response to hatemail), it would be logical to assume for the time being that she's referring to the latter category. YMMV I suppose. Bar sitting her down in a coffee shop and asking her, there's no way of proving which of us is ultimately correct.

But given that she's a sci-fi fan/author and the stated context, I find it hard to be convinced in this instance that she'd automatically classify anyone who would have a sci-fi debate about star wars morality a nazi. It would be strange, unreasonable, and out of character for a fellow geek, so for the time being, I'm afraid I'm given to believe that the evidence points to the contrary. YMMV.

Fair enough, agree to disagree I suppose. Having read a few of her novels, I don't share your charitable attitude towards her attitudes, I think she "believes" what she writes every bit as much as the ardent Jedi supporters, the only difference is she considers peoples' views on a fictional world as being on some level indicative of their views of reality, and thus she, being right, is righteous, while they, being wrong, are morally objectionable people who she can dismiss.

And for the record, she can't be talking about me in either of the senses you present, since I actually agree with many of her points about the fiction. The Jedi's actions are often questionable, and while I enjoy the movies for what they are, my favourite EU material has been either material about Dark Siders that, while still acknowledging the fact that they're basically monsters, fleshes them out a bit, or stories which question the righteousness of the traditionally good-guy characters. I have no dog in the whole Mandalorians debacle, so that's not an issue. I disagree with her because I believe she's disingenuous and in her own way every bit as nutty as the people who take their dislike of her writing too far.

**streamdragon**

One of the things I feel is worth nothing, is that through out the Clone Wars series, comics, cartoon and various novels, the only Jedi who actually act callous with Clone Lives are the ones who end up being "bad guys". (See: Pong Krell) Many to most of the Jedi recognized that the Clone Army was made up of living, breathing people. K'Kruhk for instance had a good deal of trouble sending his Clones into battle. His Clone Commander (whose name I forget and can't look up atm) actually constantly reminded him "General, we're just clones, we're bred to fight and die".

So she can say what she wants, but she's being incredibly disingenuous at best to suggest that the Jedi were hunky dorey with throwing away clone lives, or that they treated the clones as slaves or anything of the like. They may have in her writings, but all that proves is that she does in fact have a bias against the Jedi in the first place.

**H.B.M.C.**

streamdragon wrote:
So she can say what she wants, but she's being incredibly disingenuous at best to suggest that the Jedi were hunky dorey with throwing away clone lives, or that they treated the clones as slaves or anything of the like. They may have in her writings, but all that proves is that she does in fact have a bias against the Jedi in the first place.

That's because everything Traviss did was disingenuous. She loved her precious Mandos so much that she just couldn't stand to see them killed or to see the Jedi glorified as much as they were. But the point is moot now anyway. Clone Wars (and now the new EU policies) make her stuff non-canon, and that's all a lot of people care about (even Travis herself, who has decided to move on and feth up Halo instead of SW).

**Gitkikka**

A couple of people have mentioned Tales of the Bounty Hunters. This book is mostly garbage ("Dengar learns to luuuurrrrvvee!"). I will say that the Boba Fett story "Last Man Standing" is pretty good, and how I prefer to imagine Fett's origins.

Ok, ok - the IG-88 story is worth a look too, I suppose.

**Gitzbitah**

The whole Tales series was a mixed bag. I remember reading one about Bib Fortuna being lobotomized by Bomarr Monks, and attempting to hack his way out of the palace with a fork, and a seriously masochistic droid. Fett's Sarlacc story however (I think that's the one you're talking about, Gitkikka), was pretty great- and I always enjoyed the 4-LOMM and Zuckuss material.

**AlexHolker**

Gitkikka wrote:
A couple of people have mentioned Tales of the Bounty Hunters. This book is mostly garbage ("Dengar learns to luuuurrrrvvee!"). I will say that the Boba Fett story "Last Man Standing" is pretty good, and how I prefer to imagine Fett's origins.

Ok, ok - the IG-88 story is worth a look too, I suppose.

There are some good stories in that book, but the IG-88 one is not one of them. It's actually the first one that came to mind when I said Kevin J. Anderson's stories should be avoided.

"Of Possible Futures: The Tale of Zuckuss and 4-LOM" is my favourite of the five stories in the book. It succeeds in fleshing out the two bounty hunters and allows them to achieve interesting things that do not come at the cost of the main characters of the franchise. The IG-88 story does not.

Spoiler:

A good fanfic author (or an author in a shared universe) knows how to raise his characters up without dragging everyone else down. KJA does not.

**Gitkikka**

Which is funny, because I think that the Zuckuss and 4-LOM story is the second worst in the book. Hooray for opinions, and all that.

**Wyzilla**

If it hasn't already been stated, the Boba Fett comics are awesome if you ever get your hands on them, specifically those done by the creators of Judge Dredd. Star Wars at its gritty, gritty prime.

Also, I'd advise Rogue Squadron, Thrawn, and Dark Empire. Also, stay the feth away from anything by Karen Traviss.

**Asherian Command**

Grey Templar wrote:
99% of the EU is junk. Unlike the Black Library, there is/was no policing of what got published beyond "give George his moneyz!"

Rogue Squadron is good. The Thrawn Trilogy is also good from what I hear. Everything else is pretty much crap.

Its all been tossed from the canon as well, good bad and ugly. So keep that in mind. None of it has happened in the official timeline.

Speaking of Rogue Squadron... That game series needs a new game.

I also enjoyed the Thrawn Series as well.

Jedi Outcast is also very good.

**Overlord Thraka**

the EU books are good... sorta. But I LOVE the Star Wars Legacy Comics detailing Cade Skywalker's adventures against the evil of Darth Krayat

**Ensis Ferrae**

Overlord Thraka wrote:
the EU books are good... sorta. But I LOVE the Star Wars Legacy Comics detailing Cade Skywalker's adventures against the evil of Darth Krayat

Why does a "Darth" automatically have to be evil???

**Hordini**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Overlord Thraka wrote:
the EU books are good... sorta. But I LOVE the Star Wars Legacy Comics detailing Cade Skywalker's adventures against the evil of Darth Krayat

Why does a "Darth" automatically have to be evil???

Is this a serious question?

**Ensis Ferrae**

Hordini wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Overlord Thraka wrote:
the EU books are good... sorta. But I LOVE the Star Wars Legacy Comics detailing Cade Skywalker's adventures against the evil of Darth Krayat

Why does a "Darth" automatically have to be evil???

Is this a serious question?

Yes, yes it is

Sorry, I've always just felt that serving yourself is more "natural" (as everyone does it to some extent or another), and simply being Sith shouldn't write anyone off as "bad"

But then, I've always liked red lightsabers, and Sith characters in general better than the Mary Sue Jedi types

**Grey Templar**

Its because Star Wars has a lot Eastern religion and cultural influences in it, especially with the Force and its users.

Jedi focus on the good of the whole, or the group. And that's good.

Sith are individualists and focus on the self and individual. And that's bad.

Eastern culture overall focuses on the family or clan as the most important thing a person should focus on.

So that is why the Sith are "bad".

**Ahtman**

Grey Templar wrote:
Jedi focus on the good of the whole, or the group. And that's good.

Sith are individualists and focus on the self and individual. And that's bad.

It is a bit of an oversimplification but there is truth to it. There is also a bit of Western Philosophy to it as well. They are extreme individualists who will stab you in the back (literally and figuratively) even if you are a friend to get ahead. Most don't have relationships at all, or for very long, as they eventually see the other as an obstacle to their power, an anchor on them, or something that can be used against them.

**Wyzilla**

Quite simply, all Sith are backstabbing nutjobs who can't even run an empire for any successful length of time unless they enslave everyone, otherwise anything the Sith build implodes due to the Sith being Sith.

**streamdragon**

The only successful Sith empires have depended on non-sith to actually run everything. You have an emperor for a figurehead, but the actual administration of the empire is done by non-sith flunkies, who actually stick around and serve the new emperor when the old one invariably is killed (usually by his second in command).

Sith isn't just about individualism; the sith are all about domination of others. They are the personification of the adage "might makes right".

**Ensis Ferrae**

So, I went ahead and picked up some books on my Kindle... and just finished the first of the bunch. Picked up the Darth Bane trilogy, The "Bounty Hunter" trilogy (The Mandalorian Armor, Slave Ship, Hard Merchandise), and "Darth Plagueis"

I just finished Darth Plagueis yesterday, and I quite liked it. Again, I'm a bit of a Sith "fan" but I think that even non-fans of the Sith would probably enjoy it. Basically, the story is that of the discovery, training and final betrayal from Palpatine, by the Dark Lord, Darth Plagueis "the Wise"

I particularly liked that the author didn't go off to show Jedi as whining crybabies, but the Sith weren't marysue good guys either, but they weren't really "evil incarnate" (as the Jedi would have you believe). He showed the Sith, and particularly Palpatine as ambitious, and capable of seeing and using any tool they see. I've seen stuff in the past that made Palpatine, and even Vader or other Sith out to be frothing at the mouth psychos hellbent on destroying everything (kinda like Khorne), but this book doesn't do that, I feel that it keeps things rather neutral/practical.

**Yodhrin**

Grey Templar wrote:

So that is why the Sith are "bad".

That and, y'know, all the murder. The enslavement. The wars of galactic conquest.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Yodhrin wrote:
The wars of galactic conquest.

The Republic conducted wars of galactic conquest, guess they're evil too

Ohh... and one of the big reasons why Palpatine was able to maneuver himself into power, was due to tax regulations/laws and general practices that benefited the Core Worlds, to the detriment of the mid and outer rim worlds.

**Yodhrin**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
The wars of galactic conquest.

The Republic conducted wars of galactic conquest, guess they're evil too

Ohh... and one of the big reasons why Palpatine was able to maneuver himself into power, was due to tax regulations/laws and general practices that benefited the Core Worlds, to the detriment of the mid and outer rim worlds.

Yes, you're right, attempting to establish(on multiple occasions) an autocratic galaxy-spanning state with a strict caste system that practices slavery along racial lines by means of a genocidal war is really nothing compared to intergalactic pork barrel spending and poorly constructed tax law, what was I thinking, clearly the Sith are just misunderstood