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Yeah, Dark Heresy 1.0 really went overboard when it comes to autoweapons. I'm glad Only War scaled it back. Still, I consider that just "the metagame" and not a part of lore.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Well special ammunition does make sense, but they are a bit too good. There really wasn't a hard limit on how many bullets you could bring with you either.
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Supposedly each magazine was one tenth the weight of the weapon itself, but no one used those rules. Eveyrone brought an Armageddon Autogun which was kitted out with upgrades.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 20:20:29
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Melissia wrote: Keep: Stubber is a class of weapon, just like autogun is a class of weapon. The latter may specifically refer to rifles, but can refer to any number of other weapon in the category, like autopistols (which aren't SMGs; they could be classified as machinepistols).
Thus, you have "stub revolver", "stub automatic", "stub gun", "heavy stubber", etc. And you have "autopistol", "autogun", "autocannon", etc.
Stub weapons are generally cheaper and less reliable than auto weapons, aside from the revolvers. Generally speaking, stub weapons are equivalent to modern firearms, while autoweapons are described as superior, military-grade weapons equivalent to a lasgun in general combat effectiveness-- to the point where there's no difference between the two in the stats in tabletop. In Dark Heresy, lasweapons are more reliable and have more ammo, while autoweapons have a better rate of fire. It's up to the metagam eon which is really better (in Only War, lasweapons are better, in Dark Heresy, autoweapons are better).
What makes you think that a Heavy Stubber is inferior to autoguns? Why is there no "autotype" equivalent to the Heavy Stubber if it's inferior? And why do you think that stub weapons are equal to modern fire arms, yet autoweapons are better then everything we have now? And why would 40k Autocannons by magically superior to RL autocannons? It doesnt make any sense, nor have i seen any sources that state this.
Heavy Stubber is simply a term for machineguns, that's all there is to it. They don't have worse technology. Nor does it say anywhere that Stubber= "Stub technology" if there is such a thing. Heavy Stubbers are not part of a civilian weapon repertoire, because it is used for War. It's not used for hunting like Stub rifles are... and Stub guns dont fire fully automatic. Heavy Stubbers do fire fully automatic.
In Gaunts Ghosts Heavy Stubber are fully automatic weapons with calibers between .30 and .50 for infantry support and against light vehicles. Exactly what Heavy Machineguns are today.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/01/10 17:37:35
Keep wrote: What makes you think that a Heavy Stubber is inferior to autoguns?
The heavy stubber is inferior to an autocannon, which fits roughly the same category in terms of firepower and rate of fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/10 17:59:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Keep wrote: What makes you think that a Heavy Stubber is inferior to autoguns?
The heavy stubber is inferior to an autocannon, which fits roughly the same category in terms of firepower and rate of fire.
No you are completely wrong. They are not the same category. The heavy machine gun categories is defined as calibers of 8 to 15mm without explosives. The autocannon category fires bullets of 20mm+ up to ~ 80mm... solid and if available explosive ammunition. That's a world of difference. And in 40k it is exactly the same in every source i know. Autocannons are also clearly way larger then Heavy Stubbers. And the stats in all games also show this, plus autocannons fire slower. You don't use autocannons against light infantry. You use it to destroy vehicles and heavy infantry. A Heavy Machine Gun can only be used to shoot normal/light infantry and very lightly armored or unarmoured vehicles.
Imperial Munitorum Manual on Heavy Stubber: pg72
"[...] In penetrative power the Heavy Bolter superseded it as an infantry weapon, but it has survived in use thanks to its ubiquitousness and reliability. Affectionally known as "big stubbers", the heavy stubber has an extremely high rate of fire, which goes some way to making up for its inability to pierce armour[...]"
Nowhere does it state that it is a "stub weapon". Or that it is inferior to autoweapons in technology (which would be idiotic, because the functional principles are the same). Stop with the wishfull thinking and provide some sources if you want to argue.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/01/10 21:27:21
Your post defines the heavy bolter as not a machinegun, even though the heavy bolter's role is that of a machinegun.
The Heavy Bolter, I should remind you, uses explosives in its shell, and also has a higher caliber than some autocannons (having a 1.0 caliber, compared to some autocannons having roughly the same caliber as a boltgun's .75cal-- or even less)
Also, it says it's a stub weapon in the name. "Heavy Stubber". IE, a stubber (stub gun) that is a heavy weapon.
You're using definitions that are contradictory to the way that 40k works.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/10 22:32:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Your post defines the heavy bolter as not a machinegun, even though the heavy bolter's role is that of a machinegun.
The Heavy Bolter, I should remind you, uses explosives in its shell, and also has a higher caliber than some autocannons (having a 1.0 caliber, compared to some autocannons having roughly the same caliber as a boltgun's .75cal-- or even less)
Also, it says it's a stub weapon in the name. "Heavy Stubber". IE, a stubber (stub gun) that is a heavy weapon.
You're using definitions that are contradictory to the way that 40k works.
the Heavy Bolter's role is more along the lines of automatic grenade launcher. Maybe a better description would be one of those 2 Gage shotguns they use for hunting, only fully automatic and loaded with grenades instead of pellets. Or perhaps an anti-aircraft cannon would better fit the description. Or (maybe) take a small Naval Rifle and make it fully automatic, and you would have a Bolter.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Your post defines the heavy bolter as not a machinegun, even though the heavy bolter's role is that of a machinegun. You're using definitions that are contradictory to the way that 40k works.
What the what? What i wrote doesnt define the Heavy Bolter as anything, because it is a power comparison and nothing else. More importantly it is a QUOTE from Imperial Munitorum Manual, not something i invented. And last but not least it actually supports that Heavy Bolters are favored over Heavy Stubbers in the same field! Do you now desperately try to find a counterargument or how do i have to interpretate that?
The Heavy Bolter, I should remind you, uses explosives in its shell, and also has a higher caliber than some autocannons (having a 1.0 caliber, compared to some autocannons having roughly the same caliber as a boltgun's .75cal-- or even less)
Sources for autocannons having smaller caliber then a Heavy Bolter? So you want to argue that the autocannon on a Predator has a caliber of less then 25mm? This is getting ridiculous
the Heavy Bolter's role is more along the lines of automatic grenade launcher
Kinda. Its a mix between a reallife autocannon (caliber) and automatic grenade launcher (shorter range), and with flat trajectory because of self propelled projectiles.
Grenadelaunchers have larger projectiles/more explosive (mostly 40-50mm). You're not going to do an awefull lot with 25.4mm projectiles if you don't hit targets directly or at least very close to it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/11 02:28:48
Heavy Bolters were designed more to make people 'splode from inside-out than to kill more than one person. Basically an ordinary Bolter with higher fire rate. I kinda consider the Bolter as much of a Psychological weapon as it is a killing one.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
That's debatable... every weapon is designed to kill. But the second nature of fast firing weapons is indeed psychological. Heavy Machine Guns are not used for pin-point accurate fire. They fire into an area and more often then not for suppression. It's what they are best at. The enemy has to keep it's head down and can't act. That's the nature of post-napoleonic warfare, soldiers use cover instead of letting themself get ripped apart like idiots.
But if the enemy is dumb enough to expose himself (WW1 charging across open fields...) it's going to get ugly. And even with cover, some lucky shots can also occur in the stream of fire unless the cover is superior (3m deep trench).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/11 13:28:16
Says that machineguns don't have explosive charges, which the heavy bolter has.
Keep wrote: Sources for autocannons having smaller caliber then a Heavy Bolter?
Gaunts Ghosts and some other Imperial Guard books have 20mm autocannons in them. Many lore depictions are intended to invoke something like WWII autocannons.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/12 00:18:50
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I was going to say this. G3, FAL, maybe even a PSL. Heavy caliber battle rifles.
And who said an AK is outclassed by more modern guns? I happen to do very well with my AK, thank you very much. (the red dot sight helps)
Yes, the AK family is a great series of rifles. There's a reason why the AK-47 is still used today, though not by the Russian army. Iirc, they use the AK-74
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Really wouldn't the caliber depend on where it was made? Its already been determined that lasguns can have different sized power magazines depending on where they were manufactured, such as the Ghosts found out right before a combat drop when some idiot munitorium clerk ordered the wrong size.
I would think any modern day assault rifle would fit the bill, just as someone else said. Planet A uses this weapon, this caliber, this magazine, and planet B uses something else. And Chaos uses something based off the AK 47, because lets face it, that's the bad guys gun of choice.
Raven911 wrote: Really wouldn't the caliber depend on where it was made? Its already been determined that lasguns can have different sized power magazines depending on where they were manufactured, such as the Ghosts found out right before a combat drop when some idiot munitorium clerk ordered the wrong size.
I would think any modern day assault rifle would fit the bill, just as someone else said. Planet A uses this weapon, this caliber, this magazine, and planet B uses something else. And Chaos uses something based off the AK 47, because lets face it, that's the bad guys gun of choice.
LOL.
Also, the Heavy Bolter's shells detonate inside of the target, but, if it were not to be going by game terms and it were to detonate outside of the target, it would have an effect similar to a very small grenade.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Raven911 wrote: Really wouldn't the caliber depend on where it was made? Its already been determined that lasguns can have different sized power magazines depending on where they were manufactured, such as the Ghosts found out right before a combat drop when some idiot munitorium clerk ordered the wrong size.
I would think any modern day assault rifle would fit the bill, just as someone else said. Planet A uses this weapon, this caliber, this magazine, and planet B uses something else. And Chaos uses something based off the AK 47, because lets face it, that's the bad guys gun of choice.
LOL.
Also, the Heavy Bolter's shells detonate inside of the target, but, if it were not to be going by game terms and it were to detonate outside of the target, it would have an effect similar to a very small grenade.
.50s can also fire explosive ammo, though that doesn't mean they are any more grenade launchers or any less HMG's. That heavy bolter is a rapid cycling direct fire weapon meant to support the squad and lay down high volumes of suppression fire. Means it fits a similar role to a squad automatic weapon, or a machine gun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/12 03:06:40
I was going to say this. G3, FAL, maybe even a PSL. Heavy caliber battle rifles.
And who said an AK is outclassed by more modern guns? I happen to do very well with my AK, thank you very much. (the red dot sight helps)
Yes, the AK family is a great series of rifles. There's a reason why the AK-47 is still used today, though not by the Russian army. Iirc, they use the AK-74
The AK-47 ceased production decades ago, and instead the AKM took its place with a reinforced upper receiver.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
I was going to say this. G3, FAL, maybe even a PSL. Heavy caliber battle rifles.
And who said an AK is outclassed by more modern guns? I happen to do very well with my AK, thank you very much. (the red dot sight helps)
Yes, the AK family is a great series of rifles. There's a reason why the AK-47 is still used today, though not by the Russian army. Iirc, they use the AK-74
The AK-47 ceased production decades ago, and instead the AKM took its place with a reinforced upper receiver.
Actually, the AK-47 is still in production in 3rd world countries.
But RL equivalent of Autogun is a Battle Rifle (in universe Battle Rifles would be classified as Autoguns)
I was going to say this. G3, FAL, maybe even a PSL. Heavy caliber battle rifles.
And who said an AK is outclassed by more modern guns? I happen to do very well with my AK, thank you very much. (the red dot sight helps)
Yes, the AK family is a great series of rifles. There's a reason why the AK-47 is still used today, though not by the Russian army. Iirc, they use the AK-74
The AK-47 ceased production decades ago, and instead the AKM took its place with a reinforced upper receiver.
Actually, the AK-47 is still in production in 3rd world countries.
But RL equivalent of Autogun is a Battle Rifle (in universe Battle Rifles would be classified as Autoguns)
No, production ceased in 1959 and then the AKM was introduced. The hand-made guns produced in the Middle East are just that, hand made and each rifle is unique and subject to the material the smith has on had.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Regardless, the AKM is definitely a superior weapon to the AK-47 in terms of reliability, accuracy, and weight.
Which goes with its name, really-- which translates to "Kalashnikov modernized automatic rifle".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/12 19:31:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Keep wrote: Sources for autocannons having smaller caliber then a Heavy Bolter?
Gaunts Ghosts and some other Imperial Guard books have 20mm autocannons in them. Many lore depictions are intended to invoke something like WWII autocannons.
You realize that autocannon is a classification? And not a single weapon. WW2 autocannons existed in more then one caliber... Just because Gaunts Ghosts has 20mm autocannons, doenst mean that no larger ones exist.
Just like there are 0.6cal Bolters (FW books!). Predator autocannon, Hydra autocannons... need i say more? They clearly can't be 20mm cannons because 20mm cannons are tiny. This is what hydra autocannons are, based on their size (which matches almost exactly in length...)
And it doesnt matter if Heavy Bolters count as heavy machine guns or not, they are used like them (often in favor of the Heavy Stubber). And no i don't think Heavy Bolters are Heavy Machineguns, because they work differently/ have different attributes in the 40k universe. For one, they are heavier (Imperial Munitorum Manual). They are what they are - Heavy Bolters.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 11:30:35
Bolt rounds in general are described mass reactive, so they could explode in a close miss. Makes them.actually a bit pants at penetrating cover, but quite good at chewing cover up.
Regardless, the rules are an abstraction so the fact that certain types of ammo have a blast marker compared to more to hit dice is down to the person writing the rules.
Also here is a thing I posted a while back on explosive 8mm ammo from ww2. Truly horrendous stuff... and bolt rounds have even bigger payload capacity.
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