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As people have been arguing about Machine Spirits, let me just clarify a few things.
First of all, this is a world where simply believing in something hard enough makes it real (see: The Eldar Pantheon). It is entirely plausible that when a Tech-Priest built that Land Raider, he was pouring his worship energies into it, and thus created the Machine-Spirit without even realizing it (though it is believed that the process of creating a machine is what gives it the Machine-Spirit, hence the Eldar-hate).
Second of all, Machine-Spirits could either be Warp Spirits, or simply very limited Synthetic Intelligences, this is never actually revealed to us.

Also, great job with the myths, I found almost nothing that I disagree with. You looked at it very logically (mostly) and I'm too tired to refute anything right now.

jareddm wrote:
I personally have a different, yet mostly similar theory. I would like to see Dantioch die and those Ultramarines who were close to take him take his helm as their livery as a way to honor his memory. Thus making the Silver Skulls Ultramarines by blood, but Iron Warriors in memory.

This is mainly because the last thing we need is more fuel for the, "Chapters with traitor geneseed" fire, but in a way that still maintains Dantioch's role in the chapter's history.

The thing that makes that theory a bit more unlikely is the unlikelihood of Dantioch dying. He's stuck in Ultramar and still alive even after the Shadow Crusade in Ultramar ended, and we already know for a fact that the Ultramarines never make it to Terra on time. In essence, he's pretty much in the safest place in the Galaxy right now and likely won't get out of there in time to get to the dangerous action (since the Ultramarines canonically didn't). I guess maybe he and his warband could die during the Scouring or something, but by then the 2nd Founding would have already taken place.

Of course, it's wholly possible he'll die anyways (The HH series hasn't ended) but it seems... unlikely given his current situation.

TiamatRoar wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I personally have a different, yet mostly similar theory. I would like to see Dantioch die and those Ultramarines who were close to take him take his helm as their livery as a way to honor his memory. Thus making the Silver Skulls Ultramarines by blood, but Iron Warriors in memory.

This is mainly because the last thing we need is more fuel for the, "Chapters with traitor geneseed" fire, but in a way that still maintains Dantioch's role in the chapter's history.

The thing that makes that theory a bit more unlikely is the unlikelihood of Dantioch dying. He's stuck in Ultramar and still alive even after the Shadow Crusade in Ultramar ended, and we already know for a fact that the Ultramarines never make it to Terra on time. In essence, he's pretty much in the safest place in the Galaxy right now and likely won't get out of there in time to get to the dangerous action (since the Ultramarines canonically didn't). I guess maybe he and his warband could die during the Scouring or something, but by then the 2nd Founding would have already taken place.

Of course, it's wholly possible he'll die anyways (The HH series hasn't ended) but it seems... unlikely given his current situation.

He could travel to Terra with the Blood Angels and Polux and his Fists.

 dusara217 wrote:
As people have been arguing about Machine Spirits, let me just clarify a few things.
First of all, this is a world where simply believing in something hard enough makes it real (see: The Eldar Pantheon). It is entirely plausible that when a Tech-Priest built that Land Raider, he was pouring his worship energies into it, and thus created the Machine-Spirit without even realizing it (though it is believed that the process of creating a machine is what gives it the Machine-Spirit, hence the Eldar-hate).
Second of all, Machine-Spirits could either be Warp Spirits, or simply very limited Synthetic Intelligences, this is never actually revealed to us.

Also, great job with the myths, I found almost nothing that I disagree with. You looked at it very logically (mostly) and I'm too tired to refute anything right now.

Actually a great deal of the "Machine Spirit" is just a joke about the ritualisation of what we do today. Despite knowing machines are not living we give them names, talk to them, treat them as living beings. How many people talk about their PC having a bad day, or give their car a name? People talk of steam engines being alive or other machines having emotions. We call ships "her" rather than "It". Yes, people will try and rationalize why we do this, but this is what they are getting at. The Machine Sprint covers everything from a gun that jams and someone shouts at it "Why won't you fething work" to the most complex computer systems on interstellar ships and the workings of hive worlds.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I guess maybe he and his warband could die during the Scouring or something, but by then the 2nd Founding would have already taken place.

I understand your dislike for my theory, but this part is simply incorrect. The 2nd founding (021.M31) didn't occur until after The Scouring was complete (014-021.M31).

as for ultramar being safe, I'm not sure I agree with that Gulliman's been kept pretty busy in the HH books thus far, I can't belive he's not gonna have his own crisis' to deal with. also the Ultramarines arrival broke the seige, but I imagine there was some fighting when the UMs arrived. heck the Ultramarines where proably at the forefront of harrying the retreating traitor legions, which is a pretty risky place to be. That said IF I was a BL writer and wanted to kill the character? I'd have him die at Perturbo's hands leading the UM forces reliving the imperial fists at the iron cage

TiamatRoar wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I personally have a different, yet mostly similar theory. I would like to see Dantioch die and those Ultramarines who were close to take him take his helm as their livery as a way to honor his memory. Thus making the Silver Skulls Ultramarines by blood, but Iron Warriors in memory.

This is mainly because the last thing we need is more fuel for the, "Chapters with traitor geneseed" fire, but in a way that still maintains Dantioch's role in the chapter's history.

The thing that makes that theory a bit more unlikely is the unlikelihood of Dantioch dying. He's stuck in Ultramar and still alive even after the Shadow Crusade in Ultramar ended, and we already know for a fact that the Ultramarines never make it to Terra on time. In essence, he's pretty much in the safest place in the Galaxy right now and likely won't get out of there in time to get to the dangerous action (since the Ultramarines canonically didn't). I guess maybe he and his warband could die during the Scouring or something, but by then the 2nd Founding would have already taken place.

Of course, it's wholly possible he'll die anyways (The HH series hasn't ended) but it seems... unlikely given his current situation.

Dantioch could go with the Blood Angels to Terra and die during the Siege, he could die when the Ultramarines arrive and start pushing the Traitors back, or he could die during the Scouring.

Regarding Second Founding: The Second Founding did not occur until after the Traitors were dealt with and the Scouring was complete, or at least close to completion.

Steve steveson wrote:Actually a great deal of the "Machine Spirit" is just a joke about the ritualisation of what we do today. Despite knowing machines are not living we give them names, talk to them, treat them as living beings. How many people talk about their PC having a bad day, or give their car a name? People talk of steam engines being alive or other machines having emotions. We call ships "her" rather than "It". Yes, people will try and rationalize why we do this, but this is what they are getting at. The Machine Sprint covers everything from a gun that jams and someone shouts at it "Why won't you fething work" to the most complex computer systems on interstellar ships and the workings of hive worlds.

You call it a joke and 'ritualisation', I call it an animistic belief in the soul of all things that is inherent to the human condition.

 dusara217 wrote:


Regarding Second Founding: The Second Founding did not occur until after the Traitors were dealt with and the Scouring was complete, or at least close to completion.

Hmm, I see. I suppose we'll have to see if it gets addressed before the HH series ends (I dunno if the HH series will include the scouring or not. Although even if it doesn't, BL could always do a short story or novel on it someday anyways because they do short stories or novels on whatever they want in any time period).

Please refrain from killing Dantioch, Dude doesn't deserve it.
Also considering at least one of Kyr Vhalen's Legionaries survived blowing himself and his castellum up on himself and was interviewed later I'd like to think his Warsmith also survived.

Wow, a lot of stuff to respond to. Okay then.

2 Psienesis

... there is no such thing as a map of the Milky Way galaxy. Our current designs of it, such as that linked in the OP, are artist's concepts. We have never, ever had an external perspective to the Milky Way, and (given current technology) would need between 1 and 2 million years to obtain one.
The idea of the Milky Way existing as a spiral-arm galaxy is a theory based on current scientific discoveries, based both on terrestrial observatories and the probes we have cast into space. It is not verified fact.
This "myth" remains true to the setting, as that is the conceit of the game.

Year, I will rephrase this one, it is admittedly not that well put at the moment.

2 dusara217

This looks pretty good, but most of it's just common sense. I've only been to 40k for like 3 years, and I already knew almost all of what was mentioned. But I still learned some, so totally worth the half hour I spent reading it.

Well it was written mostly for newbies so there are not that many revelations for most readers, obviously.

2 JTFirefly:

I'll try to find the time to re-read and give you the details of any light errors (or at least stuff that could be contested ... ok, most of it could be, but you know what I mean).

That would be much appreciated

It only needs more definite articles

Hmm, not sure what you mean I'm afraid.

2 Finlandiaperkele:

Power of lasgun practically varies per (author) pattern, so it's not easy to say exactly how powerful it is.

Well, as is the case with many things in 40k, 'lasgun' is not a weapon, but rather a class of weapons, so a lot of variation makes sense. And power setting is another advantage, year.

Myth #12: Warp Travel IS a Hyperdrive. Both displace the vessel in an alternate dimension (ie. "Hyperspace"). WH40k just happens to have an extremely violent Hyperspace...

Yes, the difference is not in the way the process works, but in the end result. Probably should rephrase this one.

2 jareddm:

Talon of Horus has a section about this topic. Objects do indeed have a presence in the warp, but that presence is shaped and defined by what the item represents and symbolizes to those around it. To use the scalpel example, a scalpel that is used by a battlefield medic to excise shrapnel would have a very different warp signature to the same scalpel being used by an upper hive nobleman who passes his time dabbling in new ways to introduce pain to a victim. The former is seen as a symbol of hope to its patients whereas the latter, a symbol of horror and fear, yet both may be the exact same blade manufactured by the exact same factory, but their use defines their existence within the warp.

Exactly

2 Byte:

I would like this more if it wasn't for the click bait factor.

You got me Well, I don't think the way I posted the stuff is too ill-mannered.

2 Pendix:

1 - Aside from a couple of images captures of text (themselves unsourced) you provide absolutely nothing to back-up your 'Refutations'. No citations, no sources, no references.

That's true. I might add some of those, but that is admittedly not a priority at the moment.

2 - 40k 'cannon' is one of the most malleable and fluid in fiction. Lynata has several times posted a quote from the Studio that basically makes a point that different versions and interpertations of the 'cannon' are all acceptable, 'there are as many versions of 40K as there are people who play it' or something to that effect. While you mention this fact in passing (and bring it up again in #22), it really should be more central to your discussion. Possibly swapping #22 & #1 might be in order.

Hmm. I'll think about this one.

3 - Some of these 'Myths' are much more a matter of opinion (particularly considering point 2) than you are giving them credit for, and are not things that can be so simply answered. Indeed, some of the phrasing suggests (a little too obviously) that you've argued with others about these points in the past, and are now just laying down your opinion as fact (an impression not helped by point 1).

Well, I tried to be unbiased, but it seems I did not entirely succeed. Can you be a bit more specific? I'd like to correct what I can.

2 Keep:

worst of all that no detailed source information is given therefore everyone goes
"oh yeah yeah ok i agree, but #xyz is not true, its the opposite, because thats how it is"
Therefore the "myth-busting" side is no better then the wiki's we have.

Again, I'll be adding to my post so some sources will appear. But, admittedly, the post won't turn into a list of them any time soon.

And why is there a link behind every #number when it all does link to the top of the main site?

Well, at some other forum I initially made a post with only one link at the beginning and nobody noticed it.

2 everybody:
Thanks a lot for the feedback, I'll be trying to improve the stuff I've written when I have time to spare.
And the third part is coming eventually. You can also suggest myths for busting if you have some in mind.

UPD So the third part is finished, check it out:

PART 3


Myth #48: Orks are a race - refutation
Myth #49: Orkoids are intellectually and/or technologically inferior to other races - refutation
Myth #50: All ork tech and weapons are constructed in mekboys' workshops - refutation
Myth #51: Ork tech only works because orks believe it should - refutation
Myth #52: All orks prefer red colour to any other - refutation
Myth #53: Orks don't use navigation when making Warp-jumps - refutation
Myth #54: Orks are immune to the influence of Chaos and genestealer cults - refutation
Myth #55: Only tactic Tyranids use is zerg rush - refutation
Myth #56: Kroot race is fully integrated into Tau Empire - refutation
Myth #57: Tau is one of the major races - refutation
Myth #58: Philosophy of Greater Good is analogous to communism - refutation
Myth #59: All Tau are pheromone-controlled by Ethereals - refutation
Myth #60: Many Aspects and other eldar war formations only consist of members of a single sex - refutation
Myth #61: The only reason Imperium can't have peace with tau and eldar it it's own unjustified xenophobia - refutation
Myth #62: Dark eldar are a twisted version of Craftworlders - refutation
Myth #63: Commoragh is a single city in a specific location in the Webway - refutation
Myth #64: All Dark Gods' efforts are devoted to corrupting and destroying mortals - refutation
Myth #65: Chaos equals evil - refutation
Myth #66: Slaanesh is just a god of lust - refutation
Myth #67: Nurgle is just a god of diseases - refutation
Myth #68: All Khorne worshipers prefer close combat - refutation
Myth #69: All Tzeentch worshipers are sorcerers - refutation
Myth #70: First instance of Zombie Plague happened in Time of Ending due to Typhus efforts - refutation
Myth #71: All Chaos Space Marines are ten thousand years old - refutation
Myth #72: Chaos Astartes Legions still exist unchanged in M41 - refutation
Myth #73: Chaos Astartes dominate the Eye of Terror - refutation
Myth #74: All Chaos forces are based in Warp-anomalies - refutation
Myth #75: Possessed, Daemon Princes and Obliterators are all former Chaos Space Marines - refutation

Fully agree on #49. It's always seemed to me that orks aren't less intelligent, they just prefer a more direct approach, especially when lots of explosions are involved.

I agree with #58, but for more reasons that what is stated. The greater good is most closely related with a utilitarian approach.

Myth #71: All Chaos Space Marines are ten thousand years old
Lore: Ten millenia that passed since the Horus Heresy haven't had the same effect on the renegades that they've had on loyalists. Distortions caused by the prolonged existence in Warp-anomalies shortened the time passage for most of them. Warbands that weren't heavily exposed to this effect have suffered inevitable losses over the years - losses that had to be replenished by the new Astartes from traitor chapters and other, more sinister sources until most of the original legionnaires were replaced by newcomers. As a result, most of the Chaos Space Marines in M41 are not any older than their loyalist counterparts.

The Warp is not predictable. Its effects on time obeys no rules or studies, and it certainly does not have a generally time-shortening effect. In fact, one notable Ork even left the Warp before he entered it.

For each CSM who has been spending 200 years in the Warp where realspace saw 10,000, the opposite may be true for another.

There are a lot of mentions of time passing more quickly in the warp, but instances of the opposite are relatively rare so I don't think it's just the way you describe it.
Although you are right, the Warp is anything but predictable.

 Rolz wrote:
There are a lot of mentions of time passing more quickly in the warp, but instances of the opposite are relatively rare so I don't think it's just the way you describe it.
Although you are right, the Warp is anything but predictable.

It may be literary bias that forms that implication, though, as not as many anecdotal accounts exist in cannon fluff that talk about time passing faster in the warp than in realspace than the opposite. I think it is entirely likely that time passes slower for some individuals in warpspace than in realspace and for that to be entire as common as time passing faster in the warp.

Thanks for this! I always enjoy detailed discussion of the 40k universe!

Glad you like it.

Edit:nevermind