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Keep wrote:
Ive read something with "cogitation power of 30.000 co/second".

30k cogitations per second... not sure as what brain that would qualify... but that level of speed is 1960's-1970's computer tech at best.
Regarding brain doing stupid things (like wanting to reproduce ) - servitors also have a brain. Except it's kinda lobotomised in an "advanced" way - meaning certain parts of the brain are disabled through surgery, so that only the functions necessary for the task are left intact.

@Veteran Sergeant
Do you have the other half of the poster by chance? I've looked for the poster in higher resolution then 600px since ages, unsuccessfull.

http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/full/%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA-%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BE-%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%B2-%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B5-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82-296545.jpeg

There you go. Also, that is a brain in a case, as there's feeding cables connected to it. Computers don't need nutrients, soooo

I think we need more examples of good traitor legion loyalists that act like complete badasses or get lost in the warp and appear in the modern day 40k universe.

Man I didn't know About Dantioch and his other iron warrior pal. I wonder what happened to them.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think we need more examples of good traitor legion loyalists that act like complete badasses or get lost in the warp and appear in the modern day 40k universe.

Man I didn't know About Dantioch and his other iron warrior pal. I wonder what happened to them.

Kyr Vhalen, Dantioch and Ehrlen are probably the most heroic Space Marines I've ever read about, They need more art and maybe models.

Keep wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it was originally just a really advanced computer. It was referred to as a Machine Spirit because it was a semi-autonomous computer system that could communicate in a limited manner with its operators.

You sure that it's was completely intended like that? Because Machine Spirit does not have to be the same all across the board. Basically everyone knows machine spirit of the landraider exists and has actual impact. But that doesnt exclude that most machine spirits are just superstition. I think it has to be differentiated. Some machines (mostly high value/rare ones) have actual "machine spirits" as in semi autonomous computers (never full autonomous because that would be tech heresy...). Yet everything is explained by everyone as machine spirits, because they have no better explanation why something fails or does certain things and so on. The understanding of the technology is simply not there.

There is lots of things that contribute towards 'machine spirit'. Obviously some things have organic material that operates as the machine spirit. In some cases though the spirit is more literal; When a being creates or uses an item for a specific purpose, say a surgeon's scalpel to make clean incisions, that item becomes imbued with that intention and as such the item develops a warp presence. The more that is done to reinforce this link between the item and the intention/emotion the stronger this presence becomes, i.e. a spirit develops in the machine.

Perfect, Wyzilla, thanks.

The organic part - i guess thats is just the way they do part of their compu... i mean "cogitators" ...And in this case the machine spirit has a physical container/body. Other vehicles (Leman Russes, Chimeras, etc) dont have that.

@nareik
A scalpel is not a machine. It's an object - it has no mechanisms that can work differently. If everything develops a warp presence everywhere, it would be extremely easy for demons to enter the 40k real world. I find the warp explanation a bit far fetched. Are there any sources for that?

Couple of notions:
Myth #15: Lasgun is actually pretty powerful. It's basically as powerful as a .50 cal with extra juice, as it can shoot limbs off with a single shot (medium setting).
It also has power setting, giving you practically infinite amount of low powered non-lethal shots (great for crowd control),
and from a single to few shots of high-powered shots (this however is usually forbidden, as it can ruin the barrel or/and power pack), capable of even penetrating the soft armour of the Astartes Power Armour.

Power of lasgun practically varies per (author) pattern, so it's not easy to say exactly how powerful it is.

Myth #12: Warp Travel IS a Hyperdrive. Both displace the vessel in an alternate dimension (ie. "Hyperspace"). WH40k just happens to have an extremely violent Hyperspace...


Other than that, looks good. Waiting for third part!

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Couple of notions:
Myth #15: Lasgun is actually pretty powerful. It's basically as powerful as a .50 cal with extra juice, as it can shoot limbs off with a single shot (medium setting).
It also has power setting, giving you practically infinite amount of low powered non-lethal shots (great for crowd control),

Sources? The standard Heavy Stubber is equivalent to a .50cal (it even looks like it), confirmed by various fluff texts in codices, FFG books and so on. Standard Lasweapons are weaker !

Keep wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Couple of notions:
Myth #15: Lasgun is actually pretty powerful. It's basically as powerful as a .50 cal with extra juice, as it can shoot limbs off with a single shot (medium setting).
It also has power setting, giving you practically infinite amount of low powered non-lethal shots (great for crowd control),

Sources? The standard Heavy Stubber is equivalent to a .50cal (it even looks like it), confirmed by various fluff texts in codices, FFG books and so on. Standard Lasweapons are weaker !

I should have been more exact. Lasgun doesn't have the raw stopping power of the .50cal, but it does have equal/more penetration.

And yes, HS is comparable with .50cal (Although I'd say it's propably more in line with 14.5/20mm in terms of power, depending on the variant).

Where does it say that Lasguns have more/equal penetration power then either .50cal or Heavy stubbers?

I have not seen any sources that indicate this. Nor do the tabletop or the various FFG RPG rules confirm it

Keep wrote:
@nareik
A scalpel is not a machine. It's an object - it has no mechanisms that can work differently. If everything develops a warp presence everywhere, it would be extremely easy for demons to enter the 40k real world. I find the warp explanation a bit far fetched. Are there any sources for that?

The scalpel was an example of even the simplest objects develop a minor warp presence. I don't agree that it would make it extremely easy for demons to enter realspace; living things have warp presences (presumably stronger than a mere tool or machine) and generally there needs to be a cult following, rogue psyker or similar to destabilise real space enough for daemonic incursion.

The fluff comes from the least read fluff item in 40k; the unit entry for the chaos Mutilator. It talks about how they commune with and consume the warp presences of weapons in order to be able to manifest them in combat.

nareik wrote:

Keep wrote:
@nareik
A scalpel is not a machine. It's an object - it has no mechanisms that can work differently. If everything develops a warp presence everywhere, it would be extremely easy for demons to enter the 40k real world. I find the warp explanation a bit far fetched. Are there any sources for that?

The scalpel was an example of even the simplest objects develop a minor warp presence. I don't agree that it would make it extremely easy for demons to enter realspace; living things have warp presences (presumably stronger than a mere tool or machine) and generally there needs to be a cult following, rogue psyker or similar to destabilise real space enough for daemonic incursion.

The fluff comes from the least read fluff item in 40k; the unit entry for the chaos Mutilator. It talks about how they commune with and consume the warp presences of weapons in order to be able to manifest them in combat.

Talon of Horus has a section about this topic. Objects do indeed have a presence in the warp, but that presence is shaped and defined by what the item represents and symbolizes to those around it. To use the scalpel example, a scalpel that is used by a battlefield medic to excise shrapnel would have a very different warp signature to the same scalpel being used by an upper hive nobleman who passes his time dabbling in new ways to introduce pain to a victim. The former is seen as a symbol of hope to its patients whereas the latter, a symbol of horror and fear, yet both may be the exact same blade manufactured by the exact same factory, but their use defines their existence within the warp.

Keep wrote:
Where does it say that Lasguns have more/equal penetration power then either .50cal or Heavy stubbers?

I have not seen any sources that indicate this. Nor do the tabletop or the various FFG RPG rules confirm it

Don't ever compare tabletop to fluff. Never ever.

And it's from various BL books.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

Keep wrote:
Where does it say that Lasguns have more/equal penetration power then either .50cal or Heavy stubbers?

I have not seen any sources that indicate this. Nor do the tabletop or the various FFG RPG rules confirm it

Don't ever compare tabletop to fluff. Never ever.

And it's from various BL books.

And there is the major problem when discussing anything 40k universe related...people will cite books/ tabletop fluff/rules whenever it supports their claim..
And deny it when it does not..

Wyzilla wrote:
There you go. Also, that is a brain in a case, as there's feeding cables connected to it. Computers don't need nutrients, soooo

You do realize it says "feed" not "feeding", and that a "feed" is a mechanism for data transfer in computing and telecommunications, right?

There are two different types of "feed coils" on that diagram, one of them being labeled aetheric, which means having to do with space. So unless it's feeding the brain "space", I'm guessing "feed coil" doesn't mean what you think it means, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keep wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Do you think that they intended for the Codex Astartes, the book written by the greatest military mind ever to live and the war bible of "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" was supposed to be depicted as an "If A, Then B" instruction manual for on Warfighting For Dummies that would specifically prohibit the use of improvised explosives and insist that reconnaissance forces engage the enemy wherever and whenever possible?

There's no reason why codex astartes would not include improvised explosives... (

I'm going to assume that English isn't your first language because this is the second time you've "argued" with me by repeating my argument back to me.

I would like this more if it wasn't for the click bait factor.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:It's not a computer. It's a human brain ripped from its body and shoved into a box and used as a processor, and a damn good one at that.

Need a more powerful machine spirit? Then get a hundred brains and wire them all up together.

Again, this is just one version of the machine spirit,and part of the "any author can write whatever they want because there's no quality control"*. The idea of it being a human brain in a box is not present in the older fluff about the machine spirit.


*I mean, Nick Kyme still gets to write stories for TBL and Graham McNeill hasn't been proscribed from penning Space Marine fiction. How could there be any quality control?

I don't know anything about Nick Kyme, but don't talk down on Graham McNiell!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:It's not a computer. It's a human brain ripped from its body and shoved into a box and used as a processor, and a damn good one at that.

Need a more powerful machine spirit? Then get a hundred brains and wire them all up together.

Again, this is just one version of the machine spirit,and part of the "any author can write whatever they want because there's no quality control"*. The idea of it being a human brain in a box is not present in the older fluff about the machine spirit.


*I mean, Nick Kyme still gets to write stories for TBL and Graham McNeill hasn't been proscribed from penning Space Marine fiction. How could there be any quality control?

Well, I'm not sure if you count the 3rd edition rulebook as older, but I remembered reading something about this, so I looked it up. In the collection of fluff at the end there is a list of New Imperium Technological Advancements (i.e. recently unearthed artifacts). One of them is the "'Parcae' Inorganic Cogitator" and listed its capacity as "50 kilo-brains." It then goes on to describe some technobabble for how to attach it into current cogitator equipment and allow improved processing performance.

It is never specifically stated, but the existence of an "organic cogitator" that is a brain in a box is fairly heavily implied. Of course, it could just be an imperium version of the old "mechanical brain" that the computer used to be called back when they were first being developed.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:It's not a computer. It's a human brain ripped from its body and shoved into a box and used as a processor, and a damn good one at that.

Need a more powerful machine spirit? Then get a hundred brains and wire them all up together.

Again, this is just one version of the machine spirit,and part of the "any author can write whatever they want because there's no quality control"*. The idea of it being a human brain in a box is not present in the older fluff about the machine spirit.


*I mean, Nick Kyme still gets to write stories for TBL and Graham McNeill hasn't been proscribed from penning Space Marine fiction. How could there be any quality control?

Well, I'm not sure if you count the 3rd edition rulebook as older, but I remembered reading something about this, so I looked it up. In the collection of fluff at the end there is a list of New Imperium Technological Advancements (i.e. recently unearthed artifacts). One of them is the "'Parcae' Inorganic Cogitator" and listed its capacity as "50 kilo-brains." It then goes on to describe some technobabble for how to attach it into current cogitator equipment and allow improved processing performance.

It is never specifically stated, but the existence of an "organic cogitator" that is a brain in a box is fairly heavily implied. Of course, it could just be an imperium version of the old "mechanical brain" that the computer used to be called back when they were first being developed.

It's worth noting that the word 'organic' in some contexts just means 'possessing carbon atoms' - an "organic computer" could simply be a computer with diamond semiconductors instead of silicon.

 Powerfisting wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:It's not a computer. It's a human brain ripped from its body and shoved into a box and used as a processor, and a damn good one at that.

Need a more powerful machine spirit? Then get a hundred brains and wire them all up together.

Again, this is just one version of the machine spirit,and part of the "any author can write whatever they want because there's no quality control"*. The idea of it being a human brain in a box is not present in the older fluff about the machine spirit.


*I mean, Nick Kyme still gets to write stories for TBL and Graham McNeill hasn't been proscribed from penning Space Marine fiction. How could there be any quality control?

I don't know anything about Nick Kyme, but don't talk down on Graham McNiell!

yeah Mcneil's not that bad, and he's still written what is considered by many people to be the best 40k story out there (Storm of Iron)

BrianDavion wrote:yeah Mcneil's not that bad, and he's still written what is considered by many people to be the best 40k story out there (Storm of Iron)

And Abnett wrote Eisenhorn, yet people will still bitch and moan about Legion and Prospero Burns. No, McNeil's recent material in the last two to three years has been abysmal and he deserves the criticism he's getting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It's worth noting that the word 'organic' in some contexts just means 'possessing carbon atoms' - an "organic computer" could simply be a computer with diamond semiconductors instead of silicon.

A context that has literally never been used in the entirety of 40k lore.

Organic computers are not necessarily just brains in a jar either. It could be something like lines of genetically engineered micro-organisms, tasked with relaying messages, or remembering lines of binary, something like that.

jareddm wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:yeah Mcneil's not that bad, and he's still written what is considered by many people to be the best 40k story out there (Storm of Iron)

And Abnett wrote Eisenhorn, yet people will still bitch and moan about Legion and Prospero Burns. No, McNeil's recent material in the last two to three years has been abysmal and he deserves the criticism he's getting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It's worth noting that the word 'organic' in some contexts just means 'possessing carbon atoms' - an "organic computer" could simply be a computer with diamond semiconductors instead of silicon.

A context that has literally never been used in the entirety of 40k lore.

That's quite a claim to make - you don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus has a textbook somewhere from like 10th Grade with "ORGANIC CHEMISTRY" written on the cover?

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

Keep wrote:
Where does it say that Lasguns have more/equal penetration power then either .50cal or Heavy stubbers?

I have not seen any sources that indicate this. Nor do the tabletop or the various FFG RPG rules confirm it

Don't ever compare tabletop to fluff. Never ever.

And it's from various BL books.

And there is the major problem when discussing anything 40k universe related...people will cite books/ tabletop fluff/rules whenever it supports their claim..
And deny it when it does not..

Yep.

Although, from what I have seen, the lasgun does seem to be more powerful then our current basic arms, I wouldn't go .50cal though. It is actually a great weapon, it's just that all other armies basic arms are so powerful it pales in comparison. But considering that what PDF and IG will mostly be fighting is other humans with autoguns and lasgun, it works just fine.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jareddm wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:yeah Mcneil's not that bad, and he's still written what is considered by many people to be the best 40k story out there (Storm of Iron)

And Abnett wrote Eisenhorn, yet people will still bitch and moan about Legion and Prospero Burns. No, McNeil's recent material in the last two to three years has been abysmal and he deserves the criticism he's getting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It's worth noting that the word 'organic' in some contexts just means 'possessing carbon atoms' - an "organic computer" could simply be a computer with diamond semiconductors instead of silicon.

A context that has literally never been used in the entirety of 40k lore.

That's quite a claim to make - you don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus has a textbook somewhere from like 10th Grade with "ORGANIC CHEMISTRY" written on the cover?

A claim I'll rescind if you can show one rulebook, supplement, campaign, novel, novella, audio, or short story that uses the term organic to mean "possessing carbon atoms" and not "of a biological nature".

I just want to know why "brain" is apparently the basic measurement for computation in 40k. That's all...

Also, just to make this clear, I don't really favor either side in this argument from anything other than a "brains in vats used as computers would be awesome" angle (so they exist in my head cannon. I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm making that up and they aren't actually a thing.)

 Rolz wrote:
Hello, gentlemen. We all know that 40k lore is a complex subject and a lot of people seem to have a lot of opinions that don't have a lot to do with actual background but are spread nonetheless.
So I've decided to list some of those in my blog along with some actual fluff to clear thing up.
I've finished two parts out of the three so far, but let me know what you think - maybe I'm wrong somewhere, or something need to be added.
And year, my English may suck occasionally so that's that. Anyway, here's the stuff:

Ok, I've had a look, and I've some feedback for you. While there are some individual entries I've got problems, with, there are also some I heartily agree with, but (for the moment) I'll focus on the overall impression.

If what you are going for is a primer for people new to the fluff, or at least new to a deeper examination of it, (with the framework of 'Mythbusin') what you have is pretty good. If what you are going for is a definitive document that properly dispels common myths in the fanbase, then, I hate to say it, but what you've prepared is woefully inadequate. Some points:

1 - Aside from a couple of images captures of text (themselves unsourced) you provide absolutely nothing to back-up your 'Refutations'. No citations, no sources, no references.

2 - 40k 'cannon' is one of the most malleable and fluid in fiction. Lynata has several times posted a quote from the Studio that basically makes a point that different versions and interpertations of the 'cannon' are all acceptable, 'there are as many versions of 40K as there are people who play it' or something to that effect. While you mention this fact in passing (and bring it up again in #22), it really should be more central to your discussion. Possibly swapping #22 & #1 might be in order.

3 - Some of these 'Myths' are much more a matter of opinion (particularly considering point 2) than you are giving them credit for, and are not things that can be so simply answered. Indeed, some of the phrasing suggests (a little too obviously) that you've argued with others about these points in the past, and are now just laying down your opinion as fact (an impression not helped by point 1).

I will say I enjoyed reading it though, and I look forward to part 3.

worst of all that no detailed source information is given therefore everyone goes
"oh yeah yeah ok i agree, but #xyz is not true, its the opposite, because thats how it is"
Therefore the "myth-busting" side is no better then the wiki's we have.

And why is there a link behind every #number when it all does link to the top of the main site?

Talon of Horus has a section about this topic. Objects do indeed have a presence in the warp, but that presence is shaped and defined by what the item represents and symbolizes to those around it. To use the scalpel example, a scalpel that is used by a battlefield medic to excise shrapnel would have a very different warp signature to the same scalpel being used by an upper hive nobleman who passes his time dabbling in new ways to introduce pain to a victim. The former is seen as a symbol of hope to its patients whereas the latter, a symbol of horror and fear, yet both may be the exact same blade manufactured by the exact same factory, but their use defines their existence within the warp.

Ok fair enough. But i guess it doesnt have a very big impact on the normal use otherwise we propably would see this mentioned more often. I guess it becomes a thing when someone wants to alter it in some way, or the barrier between warp and realworld is thin so weird things can happen easier (my interpretation, there are no sources).

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Keep wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Do you think that they intended for the Codex Astartes, the book written by the greatest military mind ever to live and the war bible of "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" was supposed to be depicted as an "If A, Then B" instruction manual for on Warfighting For Dummies that would specifically prohibit the use of improvised explosives and insist that reconnaissance forces engage the enemy wherever and whenever possible?

There's no reason why codex astartes would not include improvised explosives... (

I'm going to assume that English isn't your first language because this is the second time you've "argued" with me by repeating my argument back to me.

Maybe you should read the rest i wrote after that too, and not just the first sentance. That's a custom everyone is taught in my native language... If I was trained in improvised explosives in the army (not THAT army), why would Astartes not be, it wouldnt make sense.

As its been discussed by others I figured I'd dig out my chaos marines codex so we could differentiate what is 'canon', what is my conjecture and what I've simply recalled wrong.

"As the warrior's physicality changes, his spirit fuses with the war-spirits within his weaponry. Even the smallest scalpel has a psychic reflection in the Warp - a splinter of potential that becomes stronger the more harm the weapon causes. The eldest of weapons, having claimed the hot blood of countless victims, have strong but simple war-spirits that thirst for battle. A true relic may even have a limited sentience or be possessed of a battle lust that surpasses that of its wielder."

It goes on to talk about how mutilators commune and absorb the spirits of such weapons into their bodies so they can manifest corrupt versions at will.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think we need more examples of good traitor legion loyalists that act like complete badasses or get lost in the warp and appear in the modern day 40k universe.

Man I didn't know About Dantioch and his other iron warrior pal. I wonder what happened to them.

So far in terms of other specific examples from Black Library, there's a loyalist Night Lords Librarian that seems like he's being recruited into the Knights Errant (the Grey Knights Precursors) who also include a few other loyalists you probably already know about (some loyalist Sons of Horus, a World Eater, and Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard).. And there's a group of Thousand Sons with a Raven motif that were sent away from Prospero and weren't there for the burning of it, and they remained loyalist and are still active in the Horus Heresy book series. General implications are that they'll probably become the Blood Ravens, though of course this isn't confirmed (yet.).

It's specifically stated that Kyr's fate is unknown to Imperial Scholars (the Forge World Horus Heresy books are written from the point of view of Imperial historiams). He was last seen extremely wounded and being dragged away by his men from the battle while shouting curses at Alpharius, IIRC (IE, he probably survived the battle but from there it's up to the player to decide what happens).

As for Dantioch, he and his warband ended up stuck in the Ulttramarines' territory thanks to Warp travel shenanigans (he was trying to get to Terra to help defend it) and joined up with them. Given that the Ultramarines never made it to Terra before the Siege of Terra ended, odds are somewhat decent Dantioch will survive the heresy. He and his warband were last depicted becoming VERY good friends with the Ultramarines, to the point where they considered him and his Iron Warrior followers to be one of them. General fan speculation is that they eventually become the Silver Skulls, who are a 2nd Founding Chapter that has specifically always CLAIMED to be successors to the Ultramarines but were never able to confirm it. The reason is because, aside from the Chekov's gun that they only CLAIM to be descendants of the Ultramarines, they also have that Silver Skull motif, which matches Dantioch's mask (their livery skull icon looks like Dantioch's iron mask, too. Compare their livery to that artwork of Dantioch. Why else would a skull have vents like that? http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Skulls http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=Dantioch&fulltext=Search). Odds are pretty good that when the Heresy ended, Dantioch, whom had become so buddy buddy with the Ultramarines that when the Heresy ended, Guilliman or someone covered up that they were Iron Warriors and declared them to be Ultramarines, and they became the Silver Skulls. Bear in mind that this is unconfirmed and just fan speculation. (as an aside, the chiekhov's gun that they only claimed to be descendants of the Ultramarines has apparently been the case since 2nd Edition IIRC. I wouldn't be too surprised if they weren't originally planned to be Iron Warriors but GW/BL/whoever decided to make that the case later. Then again, who knows?)

I personally have a different, yet mostly similar theory. I would like to see Dantioch die and those Ultramarines who were close to take him take his helm as their livery as a way to honor his memory. Thus making the Silver Skulls Ultramarines by blood, but Iron Warriors in memory.

This is mainly because the last thing we need is more fuel for the, "Chapters with traitor geneseed" fire, but in a way that still maintains Dantioch's role in the chapter's history.