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Gosh darn it, the only reason I put my miniatures in individual bases is for versatility: I can, within reason, use same bases for different games or to adjust the unit size. I can also use them for roleplaying games.

But dammit, I also want to make mini-dioramas I can use on the table!

For the first time last night i actually checked out the KOW ruleset for potential use with Warhammer miniatures, as im one of those people who assumed i would hate the rules because other then some of the human and undead range i dislike the Mantic models.

Looks interesting, im assuming fan rules for the warhammer armies exist somewhere online too.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So how much of this is confirmed again and how much is speculation? Please get me up to speed. I know we have the one photo from the digital White Dwarf of a round base (which, oddly, is cropped in the paper version) but what else is actually KNOWN?

Pretty much nothing seems confirmed. It's a bit premature to be out of News & Rumors, we've not even have any news yet.

Exactly my thoughts.

Looking at this thread, I see none of the usual WHFB Forum crowd and loads of people I don't recognise discussing hearsay and theory. It's a news and rumours thread. I'm not sure what it's doing down here.

I'm willing to discuss "what-ifs" from a theoretical point of view, but a thread filled with doomsaying, rumour-mongering, negativity and and mass preaching of game-switching doesn't belong in this forum.

 Hubris wrote:
For the first time last night i actually checked out the KOW ruleset for potential use with Warhammer miniatures, as im one of those people who assumed i would hate the rules because other then some of the human and undead range i dislike the Mantic models.

Looks interesting, im assuming fan rules for the warhammer armies exist somewhere online too.

Sort of. There are fan-made ones on the Mantic forum at the moment. As part of the KoW 2nd Ed launch there will be an official set of proxy lists.

 Baragash wrote:

 Hubris wrote:
For the first time last night i actually checked out the KOW ruleset for potential use with Warhammer miniatures, as im one of those people who assumed i would hate the rules because other then some of the human and undead range i dislike the Mantic models.

Looks interesting, im assuming fan rules for the warhammer armies exist somewhere online too.

Sort of. There are fan-made ones on the Mantic forum at the moment. As part of the KoW 2nd Ed launch there will be an official set of proxy lists.

That sounds interesting, when is the release of 2nd edition KOW, as nice to have an alternative or back up if the worst case scenario does play out with Warhammer Fantasy.

Shadow, same response as to Curran. Read the topic, rather than make up stuff that you think is in the topic, or telling the mods their job. (the very ones who moved this discussion, twice, to end up here)
This topic is about what players might do with their game and their invested armies if the rumours of skirmish rules, discarded models and nixed background turn out to be true. Maybe they won't, but best discuss the matter and get things straightened than stick your fingers in your ears and pretend everything's fine until it isn't, eh? There are a few people who unfortunately won't be able to carry on in the eventuality, but overall I think there are a few positive options that folk are catching onto, even though they might not be completely without compromise. The most negativity originating here is from people like you.

I mean, granted, like I said I'm biased towards option C in the OP. I think there are better mass battle 'engines' than Warhammer and I'm jumping on a soapbox in the face of these rumours. But why else do you think I'm ferreting out these lists of alternate rules and stacks of multibase photos - just to rub them in WHFB players' faces, or to show how much I'm rending my clothes and preaching fire and brimstone?!?

If you want to offer your opinion and choice on what you'll do should 9th ed bear out as suspected, whether welcoming it with open arms or shunning it like poison, you're free and encouraged to do so. If you can't handle the facts that Warhammer isn't the only game in town, that it might be floundering, and that GW doesn't wuv you enough not to can it in it's recognisable form, then kindly don't take it out on anyone else here.

Heartserenade: I know how you feel. I'd like a little versatility in my own minis, but I also like the idea of mini-dioramas. I've got a wee modelling project in mind that might let me have my cake and eat it too, or it might be an ambition too far. But I'll see when I test it.

Hubris: they're a little different to Warhammer mechanics, true; though like I say, their kind of mechanics are how most mass battle games work, whose simplicity and streamlining often turn out a pleasant surprise. Don't forget Mayhem, in Bombshell's link there, also has a few army lists ready.

Also:

 Hubris wrote:
...nice to have an alternative or back up if the worst case scenario does play out with Warhammer Fantasy.

Precisely!

 Hubris wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Hubris wrote:
For the first time last night i actually checked out the KOW ruleset for potential use with Warhammer miniatures, as im one of those people who assumed i would hate the rules because other then some of the human and undead range i dislike the Mantic models.

Looks interesting, im assuming fan rules for the warhammer armies exist somewhere online too.

Sort of. There are fan-made ones on the Mantic forum at the moment. As part of the KoW 2nd Ed launch there will be an official set of proxy lists.

That sounds interesting, when is the release of 2nd edition KOW, as nice to have an alternative or back up if the worst case scenario does play out with Warhammer Fantasy.

July is the listed date for the Kickstarter delivery, I am assuming Mantic are ordering enough to go to retail as soon as it's shipped to backers though. As I understand it the proxy lists will just be internet freebies on the Mantic site.

Almost all armies are represented in KoW anyway. Units, I'm not so sure. It seems like the rise of weird huge-ass contraptions and/or unnecessarily big monsters in Warhammer will not translate well with KoW.

Then again if you're creative enough, you can proxy. Orcs or Kinhdoms of Men can very well represent Beastmen, for example.

I think it is absolutely absurd that people are getting so up in arms about a ruleset they haven't even seen yet. All we have is rumours, and the rumours aren't even consistent in what will be changed! How can people say they hate something they haven't even seen, or won't play something they've never even tried?

It's crazy.

I can only speak for myself and one other local player, we are keen to try out KOW with our miniatures not because we suddenly hate fantasy but because it makes us feel better to be pro-active incase the worst case scenario is true.

Added bonus is we might find a ruleset we prefer to play the warhammer fluff/models in too.

Quick further question to anyone, is there a link that has all the most current fan made rules for warhammer armies in KOW?

As we prefer that idea for now rather then proxy as the armies already in the game.

What specific armies are you looking for? Most armies could be represented by official KoW rules.

Ogres and Beastmen is the two armies we will most likely use to try out the rules.

I don't get all the wuss. If GW decides to scrap WHFB and replace it with WHFSkirmish, then...just stick to 8th. Or play another edition. Noone's forcing ya to play 9th. I'll give KoW a try.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So how much of this is confirmed again and how much is speculation? Please get me up to speed. I know we have the one photo from the digital White Dwarf of a round base (which, oddly, is cropped in the paper version) but what else is actually KNOWN?

Pretty much nothing seems confirmed. It's a bit premature to be out of News & Rumors, we've not even have any news yet.

monders wrote:@Lockark - I've literally only ever seen GW and Mantic Elves so can't comment further, but skinny ethereal elves do tick a few boxes for me...

Let's face it, we're spoilt as gamers and consumers right now. And it's Fecking brilliant.

djones520 wrote:Can't understand the complaints?

This isn't designing a new game type. This is taking a game that people had spent years, and thousand of dollars on, because they loved it, and then completely turned it on it's head so that it is nothing resembling what it was in the past.

Now granted, this is far from confirmed... so it may not be that at all. But if you can't understand why this would upset people, then you should just walk away from the convo.

prplehippo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
CBut if you can't understand why this would upset people, then you should just walk away from the convo.

Sure, only people that agree with you should post ITT.

I still don't see anything that says the old models won't be useable. You may have to make adjustments to your current force, but that won't mean all the money you've spent over the years is now useless and wasted.

Baragash wrote:RE: God of Battles - although it is expensive it has been on sale a couple of times, I picked it up for half price + postage. It's fairly similar to KoW, possibly even more simple/abstract in terms of unit stats. It's got some interesting ideas on movement, units have control zones so if you're close to the enemy you can't just move around with impunity. Also uses a mixture of square bases for formed units and round bases for loose units. There's no real official range as Foundry changed ownership just after launch and new management weren't keen on the range so they didn't release the rest of it. I spoke to Jake and he said if you were desperate to use the official models (which TBH IMO aren't up to much) they would probably cast them on request.

Jake wrote another ruleset called Tribes of Legend which I think goes for about £16 on Amazon. It's based on Greek mythology, but of course there's no reason you should feel bound to the models/fluff. It's got 3 different games in the book ranging from a small number of models to a warbands level and a mass battle level. I haven't unfortunately picked this one up yet so no comment on the rules.

Vermis wrote:Shadow, same response as to Curran.

Just quoted some posts above, which are all speculation, discussion on different model ranges, what each individual person will do etc.

I'm not interested in that, and, whilst this thread will simply continue without my participation, that's not the kind of thread I think that belongs here.

The kind of thread that is useful is what it means for the game and how the community will/won't fix the game should 9th occur as rumoured. Of course, such a thread shouldn't really exist until the rumours are far more solid.

I'm not trying to drag the thread down with negativity, I just think, at this stage, such a thread still belongs in news and rumours, rather than clogging up an otherwise very informative section of the forum. My opinion, that's all

 Hubris wrote:
Ogres and Beastmen is the two armies we will most likely use to try out the rules.

Ogres can be played with, well, an Ogres army list. Beastmen, you can use Orcs as proxy I guess?

Ok thanks, i will still check out any fan rules if i can find them, if they make the armies a bit more like in fantasy.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't get all the wuss. If GW decides to scrap WHFB and replace it with WHFSkirmish, then...just stick to 8th. Or play another edition. Noone's forcing ya to play 9th. I'll give KoW a try.

Very easy to do with a set crew (like mine, thank god).

Very hard to do when most of, if not all, of your games are pick up games. Old games and old editions usually die hard.

Now before anyone jumps in with their anecdotal edition or game that they and their crew lovingly preserve week after week, Yes, yes, i know there's exceptions, but that's just it, exceptions. Usually old games and editions die out quickly. Just because Lenny and his friends play 2nd edition D&D because they thought THAC0 was swell, doesn't mean it's an oft occuring thing.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'm not interested in that, and, whilst this thread will simply continue without my participation, that's not the kind of thread I think that belongs here.

The kind of thread that is useful is what it means for the game and how the community will/won't fix the game should 9th occur as rumoured. Of course, such a thread shouldn't really exist until the rumours are far more solid.

I'm not trying to drag the thread down with negativity, I just think, at this stage, such a thread still belongs in news and rumours, rather than clogging up an otherwise very informative section of the forum. My opinion, that's all

You still don't get it. You think this topic shouldn't be here, then take it up with RiTides who wanted this discussion moved out of N&R, and with whichever mod then moved it from Dakka Discussions to Warhammer General Discussion.

And who are you to say this topic isn't useful or informative? I say the opposite. Why do you think the 'community' has to express some kind of blinkered hivemind loyalty to GW and the Warhammer rules, when it's far from reciprocated? If lots want to carry on with 9th, fine. That's one of the many options up for discussion. If some don't want to carry on with 9th, especially if it drops the mass-battle aspect, that's fine too. People drop WHFB all the time. (more since 7th and 8th, from the looks of things, which is how we end up with this particular situation) It's not a crime, it's not a horrid betrayal of Glorious Leader GW and 'da komyounatee', it's not necessarily exile into the howling wastes of non-gaming, and it's not even panic. It's gamers exploring their options when GW is no longer a comfortable fit, and, dare I say, taking a little more control of their gaming.

*

KoW fanlists: I remember Matt Gilbert put up a few on Warseer way back when, and I think he posted them up on the Mantic forum too, though I haven't looked recently. No doubt he's probably beavering away, tweaking them for KoWII, if he's still around.

I'm still a fan of rules that let you create your own units, though. At least four of them in the list I posted! Like Heartserenade said, some of the bigger, wackier models of Warhammer might be difficult to accurately translate. I put together a quick Skaven list for Mayhem, with the screaming bell/plague furnace as particularly tough, dangerous, but slow chariots. All the mad effects of both, in Warhammer, were boiled down to the generic 'blast' spell and the blunderbuss weapon; so yeah, not really a precise representation, but then those pages in the Skaven army books gave me headaches anyway.

If GW, with the 9th edition also stops producing existing WHFB models (which I doubt), I will just continue on playing with my VC army and will continue building my Empire army with Perry models. It is easy to get some nice (and cheaper) alternative models for common infantry (Mantic for VC, Perry for Empire), but the problem will be getting those big monsters, characters and special units.
I will probably keep on playing 8th edition with my existing armies and pick up Warmachine as a new game instead.

 Vermis wrote:
KoW fanlists: I remember Matt Gilbert put up a few on Warseer way back when, and I think he posted them up on the Mantic forum too, though I haven't looked recently. No doubt he's probably beavering away, tweaking them for KoWII, if he's still around.

Matt is on the KoW and Warpath Rules Committees (and technically the Dungeon Saga one too as all the Committee peeps are on that), is writing the choose-your-own-adventure books for Dungeon Saga and was heavily involved in developing Mars Attacks, he's still around

His Skaven and Lizardmen lists seem to be well-liked, as guys at his club use them they've received more play-testing and revision than probably any of the official lists.

The consensus among the players here is that 9th is not worth it because A. they will slash the model range and half of the stuff in our armies will be useless and we wasted hundreds of dollars and B. That 9th will be around for a year or two at max and 10th will undo the BS of 9th(despite the rumors of 9th being, you know, rumors) The players here say they will stick with 9, even though they said they had said they would stick with 7th when 8th came out. Normally I would find this mode of thinking stubborn and I would not bother to play with these people using an outdated edition, I play WoC so this ends up in my favor.

Baragash wrote:
Matt is on the KoW and Warpath Rules Committees (and technically the Dungeon Saga one too as all the Committee peeps are on that), is writing the choose-your-own-adventure books for Dungeon Saga and was heavily involved in developing Mars Attacks, he's still around

Blimey! Well, there you go, then.

His Skaven and Lizardmen lists seem to be well-liked, as guys at his club use them they've received more play-testing and revision than probably any of the official lists.

That's what got me buying skaven again, after giving up WFB. Or at least gave me a better excuse to buy Seb Perbett's skaven. I've moved on a little bit, but like I said earlier, I'm thinking of a way to switch between scenic bases (as opposed to movement trays etc.), including 100x80mm.

pepsuber wrote:The consensus among the players here is that 9th is not worth it... The players here say they will stick with 9, even though they said they had said they would stick with 7th when 8th came out. Normally I would find this mode of thinking stubborn and I would not bother to play with these people using an outdated edition, I play WoC so this ends up in my favor.

Sounds like you might not have many problems getting games of the updated edition. What about you? Are you one of 'the players here' or - from the sounds of things - are you looking forward to 9th?

kenofyork wrote: I think Fantasy Rules! by a company called Chipco is the best all around generic fantasy rules that will allow you to use all your minis. You can stack abilities on to them to give them the same play style as the WFB equivalent. Fantasy Rules! has no fluff so you can set the battles in your world of preference.

This is what I ended up going with as well. I'm a fan of the faster playing Tournament and Campaign Edition (TCE) and love how you select traits to build your army list and then use the list to build your army. The full version has a lot more traits and takes longer to play, but still less time than Warhammer with the same number of maneuver units. The TCE is like a DBA/Hordes of the Thing approach for Fantasy Rules!

The other thing I do with my fantasy miniatures is mount them on round bases and use them in skirmish games. If GW goes this route, given what their studio has been producing for the last half decade, I'm sure there rulebook will be expensive and have mediocre rules compared to options that are already out there. I just don't trust GW's ability to design game content and am certainly not willing to pay them money for it.

Every time GW switches things up they do have a chance to get me back as a customer. It just hasn't happened yet. And at this point, i really don't think they know what they're doing and don't expect them to come up with a product that returns WFB to growth. My suspicion is that WFB is going to go even more direct only and have slower releases and GW will become even more of a 40k only company than it is now. WFB will probably relaunch with the same sort of approach that the studio has been taking for 40k and WFB for the last few years, it won't really spark and become super popular and then WFB will just fade away even further.

If 9th is 100% skirmish focused and consequently falls flat on its face, GW will come out with a fantasy version of "War of the ring" in like a split second, so no worries here.

I'm trying to stay positive about 9th despite feeling anxious at the same time. Here are some things I am hoping for:

I hope units still form together as regiments. (And if we have round bases, I hope they release some regiment movement trays similar to the war of the ring ones.)

I hope my books from 8th can still be used.

I hope Empire don't lose any plastic kits.

 Bottle wrote:
I hope my books from 8th can still be used.

This is what is hamstringing GW's game development process. The need to maintain backwards compatibility in order to keep existing customers happy limits what they can do with a new edition.

The only way they'll make fundamental changes to the game is if the existing player base becomes too small to justify maintaining the status quo and sales having fallen so far that they need to do something drastic.

Are we there yet?

People with empire armies could always give pike and shotte a go, heck you could easily use most armies and just port the rules

xxvaderxx wrote:If 9th is 100% skirmish focused and consequently falls flat on its face, GW will come out with a fantasy version of "War of the ring" in like a split second, so no worries here.

Took me a few seconds to realise you meant Warhammer fantasy. I was like, "does this guy think WotR was a historical thing, or...?"

I wonder if they will, though? After all, the whole thing of 9th rumours was set off by WHFB's apparent decline. If they've failed at mass battles and subsequently fail at skirmish, will they jump right back into mass battles?

cammy wrote:People with empire armies could always give pike and shotte a go, heck you could easily use most armies and just port the rules

True enough. I also think the list of unit type examples in the back of the Hail Caesar could be a good jumping off point. Trouble is, as Warlord had the misfortune to find out, peeples like their points values! Pretty pointy points. All nicely squared off, even, and equal, like armies should be.

Ach, I'm being too grumpy with that. I know points systems are useful things. It's partly why I'm disappointed the Fantasy Hail Caesar thing never went anywhere: a decent set of pointed army lists, approved by no less than Rick Priestly, might've encouraged more WHFB players to jump ship - or at least give them another choice of lifeboat. Though I wonder how easy it'd be to mash up Warmaster stats and points with HC.

This is what is hamstringing GW's game development process. The need to maintain backwards compatibility in order to keep existing customers happy limits what they can do with a new edition.

Do you remember the famous black book of army lists for 40k second edition? If they want to do it, nothing stops them from doing something similar. They have enough goodwill remaining (just) to do playtesting for multiple factions as well int he community to generate results from new army lists. Everyone gets included and then you wait for your army book update.

The only way they'll make fundamental changes to the game is if the existing player base becomes too small to justify maintaining the status quo and sales having fallen so far that they need to do something drastic.

Are we there yet?

Well, their sales figures from independants say they are.

A positive is while I can't imagine the price will come down significantly, even if it goes to a lower model count, the upside for accessability would be less models to paint. Currently rules aside compare something like KoW dwarves to the possibly soon almost extinct GW dwarves. Cheaper and paint up far faster using something like army painter (just less detail or more favourable to simpler approaches). While they won't compete on price at least the army completion time would reduce.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Do you remember the famous black book of army lists for 40k second edition? If they want to do it, nothing stops them from doing something similar. They have enough goodwill remaining (just) to do playtesting for multiple factions as well int he community to generate results from new army lists. Everyone gets included and then you wait for your army book update.

They did the same thing in the back of 3rd edition 40k and for 6th ed fantasy they released a separate little booklet that served the same purpose. I could see them doing it again. Only if there's sufficiently few customers to string along under their current "always compatible" model of rules non-development.

This idea of GW doing an open playtest though is very unlikely to materialize. GW doesn't ask you want you want or what you think, it tells you what to buy. They seem to believe this even to the point that their Chairman & CEO said that market research was unnecessary in their niche (which he had described previously in past reports as obsessive teenage boys). I just don't see a company with that sort of view at the top suddenly doing an about face and doing an open beta of their rules. Ask the sheep what they think about being fleeced? Surely not.

A positive is while I can't imagine the price will come down significantly, even if it goes to a lower model count, the upside for accessability would be less models to paint. Currently rules aside compare something like KoW dwarves to the possibly soon almost extinct GW dwarves. Cheaper and paint up far faster using something like army painter (just less detail or more favourable to simpler approaches). While they won't compete on price at least the army completion time would reduce.

If I were to do a dwarf force, I'd get the mantic dwarves and then replace their shields with Imperial Roman shields.