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prplehippo wrote:This whole thing just sounds weird to me.

I recall on this forum and others people saying that GW should create or move to a skirmish-level game to make it less expensive for new and current players.

Now that they seem to be doing so, people are still complaining.

While I don't play much anymore I understand people not wanting to buy yet another ruleset, but wasn't there mention that older rulesets would be, in some ways, compatible with the new one?

Other than a new ruleset coming out, I don't really understand the new round of complaints.

What the others said. If some people thought (quite rightly) that a set of Warhammer fantasy skirmish rules would be a cheaper and useful introduction to the bigger game, and give people something to do before they had the requisite heap of minis completed, I don't think they exactly imagined a shakeup 'discarding' the big game rules, the old minis, and even the old fluff, as belonging to an old edition. I'd guess gamers who didn't care about skirmish games would've imagined it even less.

Were there rumours about compatibility? I hadn't seen them myself, but that would lessen the blow.

I'm doing the wait and see thing as well. And once I do see and have the knowledge that's confirmed is when I'll make my decision.

There's enough histrionics to go around as it is.

@Lockark - I've literally only ever seen GW and Mantic Elves so can't comment further, but skinny ethereal elves do tick a few boxes for me...

Let's face it, we're spoilt as gamers and consumers right now. And it's Fecking brilliant.

 prplehippo wrote:
Other than a new ruleset coming out, I don't really understand the new round of complaints.

GUYS! DO YOU GET IT????

Can't understand the complaints?

This isn't designing a new game type. This is taking a game that people had spent years, and thousand of dollars on, because they loved it, and then completely turned it on it's head so that it is nothing resembling what it was in the past.

Now granted, this is far from confirmed... so it may not be that at all. But if you can't understand why this would upset people, then you should just walk away from the convo.

We don't know that the new game won't be another mass battle game. What we're hearing is that it'll be based around a lower-scale 'entry point'. But look at the 'old' fantasy - the battle reports in white dwarf could have been 1000 or 1500 points if games workshop had so desired, instead they were around 3000 points.

Having a 'skirmish' game won't mean as much if games workshop promotes it in large-scale. Mass battles may still very well be an option.

 djones520 wrote:
CBut if you can't understand why this would upset people, then you should just walk away from the convo.

Sure, only people that agree with you should post ITT.

I still don't see anything that says the old models won't be useable. You may have to make adjustments to your current force, but that won't mean all the money you've spent over the years is now useless and wasted.

 curran12 wrote:
So how much of this is confirmed again and how much is speculation? Please get me up to speed. I know we have the one photo from the digital White Dwarf of a round base (which, oddly, is cropped in the paper version) but what else is actually KNOWN?

Pretty much nothing seems confirmed. It's a bit premature to be out of News & Rumors, we've not even have any news yet.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So how much of this is confirmed again and how much is speculation? Please get me up to speed. I know we have the one photo from the digital White Dwarf of a round base (which, oddly, is cropped in the paper version) but what else is actually KNOWN?

Pretty much nothing seems confirmed. It's a bit premature to be out of News & Rumors, we've not even have any news yet.

Exactly.

Of course, for the boards, that is more than adequate grounds for fullscale panic. :p

 prplehippo wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
CBut if you can't understand why this would upset people, then you should just walk away from the convo.

Sure, only people that agree with you should post ITT.

I still don't see anything that says the old models won't be useable. You may have to make adjustments to your current force, but that won't mean all the money you've spent over the years is now useless and wasted.

No one said anything about agreeing. It's about understanding. If you're happy with the change awesome. Other people will not be though, and it's justifiable.

RE: God of Battles - although it is expensive it has been on sale a couple of times, I picked it up for half price + postage. It's fairly similar to KoW, possibly even more simple/abstract in terms of unit stats. It's got some interesting ideas on movement, units have control zones so if you're close to the enemy you can't just move around with impunity. Also uses a mixture of square bases for formed units and round bases for loose units. There's no real official range as Foundry changed ownership just after launch and new management weren't keen on the range so they didn't release the rest of it. I spoke to Jake and he said if you were desperate to use the official models (which TBH IMO aren't up to much) they would probably cast them on request.

Jake wrote another ruleset called Tribes of Legend which I think goes for about £16 on Amazon. It's based on Greek mythology, but of course there's no reason you should feel bound to the models/fluff. It's got 3 different games in the book ranging from a small number of models to a warbands level and a mass battle level. I haven't unfortunately picked this one up yet so no comment on the rules.

 Vermis wrote:

still you're hardly going anywhere with a unit of 10 girls in any proper "mass-battle" game.

In Mayhem, the recommended unit element size for 28mm is a 60mm square. Should fit nine human-sized, 20mm-based minis nicely. Ten minis will also fill out most of a four-stand (40x40mm stands) unit in Legions of Battle, especially with a little judicious spacing, and especially as Light Troops. Or they could make up two or three (40x40 or 50x50mm) Single Stand Units. Might be appropriate for Witch Elves as SSUs don't waver, they fight to the death.

(Hey, it's more than you get in HoTT, anyway)

My bad. Having played DBA, I feel utter shame I just overlooked this. Sorry.

In fact, from my experience, systems like (iirc) KoW or Mayhem are much more suited to "mass battles" than ones like WHFB where units are composed of individual soldiers and have to be removed as separate casualties. Not only because they're much more agile when it comes down to calculating and removing casualties (and the related effects), but also because the unit is a 100x80mm or a 80mmx40mm or a 100x50mm square, and inside that you can put the amount of minis you may want - and it's not that difficult to keep a reasonable number while being able to create interesting and dynamic unit poses.

Better than cracking your head over making 20 individual models rank up correctly in a 5x4 formation, that's for sure.

As for the rules... if you simply don't care about rules and will play whatever GW (or someone else) will throw at you, then I'd suggest sticking to collecting and painting. As I said in a thread in the 40k subforum, nobody should feel ashamed for playing a mediocre ruleset if the other factors involved (social enjoyment, fun, putting those minis you painted into use, etc.) make it worthwhile. But I consider that a better ruleset that doesn't force you to constantly go back and forth around a rulebook, two or three armybooks plus supplements, will actually help if you plan on having a fun and relaxed evening.

 Pete Melvin wrote:

 prplehippo wrote:
This whole thing just sounds weird to me.

I recall on this forum and others people saying that GW should create or move to a skirmish-level game to make it less expensive for new and current players.

Now that they seem to be doing so, people are still complaining.

While I don't play much anymore I understand people not wanting to buy yet another ruleset, but wasn't there mention that older rulesets would be, in some ways, compatible with the new one?

Other than a new ruleset coming out, I don't really understand the new round of complaints.

People have spent years, in some cases decades, building armies in their current ranked up big block standard base size format. The last thing these people want to do is rebase possibly hundreds of models, if indeed their army even exists in the new format. Complaints are understandable if the rumours reach fruition.

I think pretty much everyone wants a new game. I think almost no-one wants a new game at the expense of the current WHFB, even if you don't collect yourself you probably know someone who does and who would be badly affected by the change.

I find it almost unconscionable that GW would kill WHFB to get all of the customer base to re-base/buy into a new game with new miniatures, and invalidate the old. If they did, it would be the biggest kick to the nuts of their fanbase, and would make the Finecast debacle look like a positive, feel-good PR exercise by comparison.

I'm yet to move on from 2nd and 3rd edition... just cos a game stops, it doesnt equate you have to do the same.

Plus I have all the background I need...

Big P wrote:
-snip-

In my local gaming group we've got a very simple solution to the whole 8th/9th conundrum. If all the 9th rumours are true then we'll stick with 8th, if 9th turns out to actually be just a "improved" version of 8th we'll give it a go. Unless any of us have had our armies squatted, in which case we'll stick to 8th.

We're also actively looking at Kings of War since we can of course use the armies we've already got.

Besides I'm not sure how much Warhammer we'll actually be playing in the near future as nearly everyone seems to be getting into (or is already playing) Star Trek Attack Wing and Bolt Action atm.

 Flashman wrote:
I'm in total wait and see mode, but in the meantime X Wing keeps me amused for now, so I guess D

A sensible position to take. We know from past experience that GW will continue to sell 8th edition rulebooks/army books right up until the last second where they pull the plug and spring 9th on us, and probably invalidating most people's armies at the same time.

My advice to everybody would be to buy zero fantasy products until we know what's happening. Absolutely zero.

Actually, a good hint that something is coming will be adverts for the 8th edition rules and boxes in White Dwarf.

That was done, along with painting ideas and a battle report featuring the minis, the month before 40k 6th edition was released. What a fine bunch of fellas.

 Pacific wrote:
Actually, a good hint that something is coming will be adverts for the 8th edition rules and boxes in White Dwarf.

That was done, along with painting ideas and a battle report featuring the minis, the month before 40k 6th edition was released. What a fine bunch of fellas.

WD is not a reliable indicator, because according to that recent yearly financial report, WD is as popular as a return ticket on the Titanic

ET was a good thing to bump people interest on WFB but this wave of rumors killed the momentum big time. Imagine you got yourself a nice new 2015 project goal of doing, say Glotkin legion army... then you read all this base, ruleshift thang and enter into a long stasis ( confirmation should take what? 5... 6 months?).
I mean the wait and see is the sensible action to take but thats the last thing GW needs atm. How much all of this will cost GW? 8% out of the window? ET army projects frozen? The few hardcore fans start to be curious about other companies... look at all those all in 1 box PP armies... shiny.

What I'm trying to say is, the GW inaptitude to manage information on the internet may well be compromising all of their 9th edition release. Will be interesting to see if the giant will actually reacts to all this. Common sense, and their loss in sales would say they will, although experience says they will blame store managers, CH, freeloaders, fanbase, oil prices and global warming instead.
The internet fad may well be the main cause of WFB death.

I will personally continue to paint models ( but not their bases), lets hope we have confirmations sooner rather than later.

 NAVARRO wrote:
ET was a good thing to bump people interest on WFB but this wave of rumors killed the momentum big time. Imagine you got yourself a nice new 2015 project goal of doing, say Glotkin legion army... then you read all this base, ruleshift thang and enter into a long stasis ( confirmation should take what? 5... 6 months?).

The rumours don't help, but when GW started to release wave upon wave of fluff describing the evisceration of various races, it certainly gave me pause for thought even before the 9th edition rumours. I think most people were intelligent enough to begin thinking, "Hang on a sec, where is all this going? Maybe now is not the best time to be investing in this stuff..."

If anything, End Times has fuelled the "death of Warhammer Fantasy Battle" rumours and this is evident in the threads on the subject. The very idea of a scaled down Warhammer only makes sense because of End Times.

As I said in another thread...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If Lizards are getting Squatted and/or it's changing to a skirmish game then I'll probably gather up all my WHFB, throw petrol on them and say goodbye.

Pics or it doesn't happen.

 Flashman wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
ET was a good thing to bump people interest on WFB but this wave of rumors killed the momentum big time. Imagine you got yourself a nice new 2015 project goal of doing, say Glotkin legion army... then you read all this base, ruleshift thang and enter into a long stasis ( confirmation should take what? 5... 6 months?).

The rumours don't help, but when GW started to release wave upon wave of fluff describing the evisceration of various races, it certainly gave me pause for thought even before the 9th edition rumours. I think most people were intelligent enough to begin thinking, "Hang on a sec, where is all this going? Maybe now is not the best time to be investing in this stuff..."

If anything, End Times has fuelled the "death of Warhammer Fantasy Battle" rumours and this is evident in the threads on the subject. The very idea of a scaled down Warhammer only makes sense because of End Times.

Right.
I think GW needed a story to renew Fantasy.
In view of End Times the rumors make sense.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So how much of this is confirmed again and how much is speculation? Please get me up to speed. I know we have the one photo from the digital White Dwarf of a round base (which, oddly, is cropped in the paper version) but what else is actually KNOWN?

Pretty much nothing seems confirmed. It's a bit premature to be out of News & Rumors, we've not even have any news yet.

If both of you'd been following the news and rumors topic (mentioned and linked right in the first post of this topic) you'd see that RiTides wanted the non-rumour discussion moved elsewhere, and I had latched onto the 'what could we do/play instead?' part of it like a tick, and didn't want to let go. It's a subject I'm interested in, not just because of these 9th ed rumours, though it might become a lot more relevant for some people if the rumours bear out.

So, please, take this news and rumour discussion out of my Dakka Discussions topic.

curran12 wrote:Exactly.

Of course, for the boards, that is more than adequate grounds for fullscale panic. :p

Who's panicking? I'm not panicking. I might be panicking if I hadn't give up on WHFB years ago, but I doubt it. Who else is panicking? I see a nice wee discussion about life after Warhammer. (or at least life after 8th ed) What do you see?

Or is it just because you want to look like a GW-blingin' kewl-as-a-kewkumber 15th-level internet mastah above all these silly plebs who start to think that hey, maybe GW isn't run by benevolent gamer-loving geniuses, and you blow up any slight expression of negativity out of all proportion in order to achieve it?

Korinov wrote:
In fact, from my experience, systems like (iirc) KoW or Mayhem are much more suited to "mass battles" than ones like WHFB where units are composed of individual soldiers and have to be removed as separate casualties. Not only because they're much more agile when it comes down to calculating and removing casualties (and the related effects), but also because the unit is a 100x80mm or a 80mmx40mm or a 100x50mm square, and inside that you can put the amount of minis you may want - and it's not that difficult to keep a reasonable number while being able to create interesting and dynamic unit poses.

Better than cracking your head over making 20 individual models rank up correctly in a 5x4 formation, that's for sure.

Absolutely. Precisely the conclusions I came to for myself.

I'd thought of hunting down and posting some examples of these types of unit elements that impressed me, for some of these games. Probably will, but it'll have to wait 'til some time this migraine isn't trying to push my brain out through my eyes.

It seems like this announcement could possibly be related to this thread.

I'm not panicking however as I said before it's like losing an old friend. Now. I have most of what I want for my collection, save a HPA and a doomwheel and possibly some censer bearers. And possibly a vermin Lord

I do want a Mage Priest too so ill have to get those


But I'm lothe to give GW any money. They've abandoned every Army I've loved so it's a very hard and upsetting circumstance.

Now that I have been able to get over the death of the old world I am ready to move on. The answer for me is probably a combination of A,B and C.

A, My group is curious about the new version, and if the models look good and the rules seem decent we will probably try it out.

B, We all like 8th edition and have pretty big armies for it. So we will probably play it whenever someone feels like it.

C, I am very interested in trying out Kings of War, and WHFB armies seem very easy to port to KOW.

C, and maybe it'll motivate me to finish the ruleset I started making myself years ago.

 Bombshell Games wrote:
It seems like this announcement could possibly be related to this thread.

Now, for that quick showcase of 28mm fantasy element bases. (I could show a lot more if that included other scales or historicals, but since this is about possibilities for warhammer armies...) I really do have to start with HvM's Game of Thrones Mormont army, based up for Impetus. Put together with Perry plastics, WGF viking heads, and a little green stuff. Bear in mind they're based on interpretation of the books, rather than the TV visuals.



You can see many more pics at his (German) blog, at the LAF topic, or on FB.

Over at An Hour of Wolves and Shattered Shields, Neldoreth has a few impressively painted fantasy armies: GW high elves for HoTT; Mantic dwarfs and various undead for KoW; and bretonnians for both. My eye was first caught by his (Stirland?) empire army, also based up for both HoTT and KoW.



Here's a great wee GW orc/KoW basing project I noticed, back when I still visited Warseer.



Lastly, night goblins just look right, huddled up on a HoTT base.