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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

KingDeath wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

sure, except yet again how does Chaos get a pass for this while the IoM doesn't? chaos practices blood sacrifice, slavery and all sorts of other things. whereas honestly the IoM in most peoples lives is proably pretty distant.

KingDeath wrote:
Are these million rats sentient?

Are rat sentient? That is a question humans are asking themselves. And they do not all agree on it. Are humans sentient? That is a question Eldars are asking themselves. Certainly they do not all agree on it either.

In the grimdark darkgrimness of the 41st millenium (with extra skullz...), everybody's a dick, and everybody but the Orks and Tyranids are pretty openly malicious dicks. Orks are rambunctious, boisterous, and party a bit hard for anyone else's liking, but maintain, and, oddly enough, hold to a code of honor that isn't predicated entirely on species. They are destructive, yes, but one could hardly push that needle past neutral, given their inborn need to fight, they're like children. Tyranids, on the otther hand, are no more evil than any other ravening, voracious animal.

So, riddle me this, are toddlers and puppies evil? Because that's what these two are.

KingDeath wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

Except the Imperium doesn't give a flying feth about race or sexuality. They couldn't care less if you're gay or bisexual, and even less if you're black or asian. The only time the Imperium cares about "racial purity" is when people start growing fur, multiple eyes, multiple arms, and horns. Otherwise they tolerate numerous mutants just fine, including Ratlings, Ogryns, Pelagers, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

The lives of those who aren't your species are meaningless. I would happily kill a million sentient alines to save a handful of humans, just as I would happily kill quadrillions of sentient aliens to save the human race (or dine on near-sentient animals like pigs, which are extremely intelligent but suffer the misfortune of being delicious).

You only owe allegiance to your own species. Aliens or animals from your own ecosystem are simply expendable resources.

 Matthew wrote:
Are there any 'good guys' in 40K?

Yeah ... Forge World.

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

Nowhere close.

Humans are to Eldar what Cows are to Humans.

Does the Imperium treat the cows any better ? nope. it's even worse. At least the Eldar don't kill humans for anything else than survival (sport, taste,...)

The Imperium is horrible to many of its citizens, Eldar aren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

Rats are sentient yes. They're clearly a few steps back in terms of evolution, like humans are to Eldar.

KingDeath wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

Are these million rats sentient? Essentialy all major 40k races except the Tyranids and perhaps Daemons are human in that they seem to share our concept of sentience. They just wear different makeup and a nice hat for easy identification.

Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals. If you think I'm exaggerating, imagine what sort of uproar would happen if we cloned a proto-human and then performed invasive experiments on it.

Dronze wrote:
In the grimdark darkgrimness of the 41st millenium (with extra skullz...), everybody's a dick, and everybody but the Orks and Tyranids are pretty openly malicious dicks. Orks are rambunctious, boisterous, and party a bit hard for anyone else's liking, but maintain, and, oddly enough, hold to a code of honor that isn't predicated entirely on species. They are destructive, yes, but one could hardly push that needle past neutral, given their inborn need to fight, they're like children. Tyranids, on the otther hand, are no more evil than any other ravening, voracious animal.

So, riddle me this, are toddlers and puppies evil? Because that's what these two are.

The question isn't whether they're evil or worse than everyone else, the question is whether they're "good guys", which is a resounding no.

How would you define 'good guys'.... the way it is used in this discussion it doesn't really exist in the real world either...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals.

Ahahah, not even close. The problem is that it is pretty hard to convey this because the authors are all still humans, but the Eldar are supposed to be, or at least consider themselves, as much much more evolved than the mon-keigh. Just like we consider ourselves superior to monkeys. Even though monkeys have been able to understand the use of tools, and concepts like injustice.
Humans are to eldars what monkeys are to humans. Keep this in mind when considering whether the eldars are acting in a moral fashion or not.
[edit]And more importantly, keep this in mind when considering whether we humans are acting in a moral fashion too![/edit]

Short answer? No, not from an objective standpoint.

Orks.
Orks are mainly fighting for the fun and are least prone to speciism or anything that qualifies as genuine evil.

Tyranids as well. They just want to feed and evolve. Once you get past that whole mindset of "eating civilizations and stripping planets of all their biomass is evil"-restriction, they are no worse than any carnivore, they just have the better tools.

Are any of those the typical white knights in shining armor? No. But that would not fit in a true grimdark setting anyways, so chaotic neutral is the best you'll get.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly, they may be less-evolved, but humans and eldar are basically sentient equals.

Ahahah, not even close. The problem is that it is pretty hard to convey this because the authors are all still humans, but the Eldar are supposed to be, or at least consider themselves, as much much more evolved than the mon-keigh. Just like we consider ourselves superior to monkeys. Even though monkeys have been able to understand the use of tools, and concepts like injustice.
Humans are to eldars what monkeys are to humans. Keep this in mind when considering whether the eldars are acting in a moral fashion or not.
[edit]And more importantly, keep this in mind when considering whether we humans are acting in a moral fashion too![/edit]

Humans are a lot more like Monkeys than Eldar are like Humans.

Honestly, a much fairer comparison would be cows or rats.

Those animals aren't completely slowed, but they just don't think and act like humans do.

killerdou wrote:
How would you define 'good guys'.... the way it is used in this discussion it doesn't really exist in the real world either...

That's why you should look at it from a narrative standpoint to figure out who they are. Take Sin City for example - basically everyone's morally dubious, but it's pretty clear to see that Marv and Dwight are the "good guys". Obviously there aren't any "good" forces in 40k, but IMHO, the easiest to define as the "good guys" from a narrative standpoint are Eldar, the Imperium and Tau. They fighting for survival in the name of some greater purpose which isn't obviously awful (unlike, say, Chaos Daemons) or at least better than all the other alternatives, they're outnumbered, outgunned and usually on the defensive. Obviously they all do some pretty horrible things, but when you're positioned as the "heroes" of a story then you can get away with that to some degree (eg, Neo gunning down humans in The Matrix). As I have said before, they're also better fleshed out than Orks and Tyranids, who end up being an easy source of conflict for our heroes to overcome. That also goes some way to explaining why Orks and Nids are rarely portrayed fighting the "bad guy" races (eg, in the battles in the Nids codex, the only ones that go into great detail are versus the Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Orks, although the Orks are mostly done so because the Imperium lured them into the conflict).

Orks enslave other races. The only real "good" in my opinion are Soul Drinker type renegades who mostly just want to save humanity from the imperium and IG meat shields who just want to live.

Eldar are probably the closest to 'good' in the galaxy.
They are focused on their own survival, but what sentient being isn't? Not to mention that the Eldar psyche lives on after-death, which can lead to eternal suffering, which makes Eldar self-preservation pretty reasonable.
The Craftworld Eldar also dedicate themselves to important tasks, such as watching over the eye of terror or stopping Necron tomb worlds from waking up and destroying the galaxy, or destroying worlds so that the Tyranids can't expand as fast.
But they do help other races, such as the Ethereal's being placed by the Eldar theory, or letting whatshisface into the Black Library to learn about Chaos.
In the Grand scheme of things Eldar are the only force that are working to save the galaxy. I mean one Eldar sacrificing him/herself is a huge deal, considering it means eternal pain and torment...
So yeah...
Eldar.

 TWilkins wrote:
Eldar are probably the closest to 'good' in the galaxy.
They are focused on their own survival, but what sentient being isn't? Not to mention that the Eldar psyche lives on after-death, which can lead to eternal suffering, which makes Eldar self-preservation pretty reasonable.
The Craftworld Eldar also dedicate themselves to important tasks, such as watching over the eye of terror or stopping Necron tomb worlds from waking up and destroying the galaxy, or destroying worlds so that the Tyranids can't expand as fast.
But they do help other races, such as the Ethereal's being placed by the Eldar theory, or letting whatshisface into the Black Library to learn about Chaos.
In the Grand scheme of things Eldar are the only force that are working to save the galaxy. I mean one Eldar sacrificing him/herself is a huge deal, considering it means eternal pain and torment...
So yeah...
Eldar.

And when the going gets tough for the Craft World Eldar, Dark Eldar are right behind them ready to take their hand and pull them out of that mess!(Iyanden) or just take that hand and go home. Whatever.

Eldar are massive arrogant pricks who will gladly condemn millions to die if it suits themselves.

The Tau are expansionist donkey-caves that spreads their own brand of tyranny across the stara.

The Imperium are those two put together and yet somehow worse. So, my answer is orks. Orks are just doing what they love.

Orks are massive donkeycaves that will gladly condemn millions to die just for their own fun, and that spread their own brand of tyranny (known as slavery) across the stars.
Sure, they are doing what they love! What they love is terrible though.

Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

The first good guy that springs to mind is an individual, it is Commissar Gaunt, from Gaunt's Ghosts novels. He's pure as snow, that guy.


Yeah, you meant are there good factions, but that's dumb. First of all, thinking in terms of factions enables all the gratuitous violence involved in this game.

Secondly, I think of Sweden as one of the Good countries, in contrast to some that are less free, etc. However, there are many, many issues I can think of that make it to say that a country as a whole, Sweden, is something you can call good guys or bad guys.

pelicaniforce wrote:
The first good guy that springs to mind is an individual, it is Commissar Gaunt, from Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

Oh, and Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. He pretends to be cynical as hell, but really, he is a carebear .

Ehhh I dont get some of the Tau = genocidal evil stuff. They tend to be pretty nice about their conflicts. They swing by, "join or empire or else!" if you say yes, they take you in, give you work, give you food, clothing, purpose and a good standard of living, heck, they even care about you to some degree! If you say no, well they will decide to invade and kill you. Unlike pretty much any other faction they are the only one that gives you the option to surrender and live peacefully under their rule. Sure you lack choice, but its better to be safe and alive under their control then barely alive with a high chance of death under the tyranny of the IoM.

I'm pretty sure all that eugenics stuff came from the Dawn of War games and not any official fluff. Hell, they even tried to make friends with the Dark Eldar, who does that?

Tau are probably the least evil.

They will let you live in relative peace as long you follow their rules and don't cause trouble.

The others won't even give you that if you are not a member of their own race (and in some cases, not even than.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau are probably the least evil.

They will let you live in relative peace as long you follow their rules and don't cause trouble.

The others won't even give you that if you are not a member of their own race (and in some cases, not even than.)

Yay, Communism!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Orks are massive donkeycaves that will gladly condemn millions to die just for their own fun, and that spread their own brand of tyranny (known as slavery) across the stars.
Sure, they are doing what they love! What they love is terrible though.

That is true. Well, in that case I vote Imperium. Gotta represent mankind, yo.

That is the spirit! Humanity, feth yeah! Let us burn some xenos!

 Wyzilla wrote:


The lives of those who aren't your species are meaningless. I would happily kill a million sentient alines to save a handful of humans, just as I would happily kill quadrillions of sentient aliens to save the human race (or dine on near-sentient animals like pigs, which are extremely intelligent but suffer the misfortune of being delicious).

You only owe allegiance to your own species. Aliens or animals from your own ecosystem are simply expendable resources.

Exactly. My point was that no one is a "good guy" because it depends entirely on point of view.

 Ailaros wrote:
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say tau. Go ask any chinese person what they think of "co-prosperity" and you'll see why the only difference between tau and the imperium is what language they choose to use in their propaganda.

Anyways, as said above, the only good guys in the galgaxy is the faction that you're a part of. The Imperium may be awful, but if you're a human it's your best shake at life. If you're eldar, you may live a life of aescetic slavery, but at least your soul isn't eaten. If you're orks, you live in a super-violent dystopia, but at least you're guaranteed to die doing what you love, etc. etc.

While co-prosperity is despised as a Imperial Japanese propaganda, we the people of the Republic of China have absolutely no issue with the overly-saturated term "harmony"

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

YAR HAR A FIDDLE DEE DEE THE LIFE OF A PIRATE IS THE LIFE FOR ME, I DO WHAT I WANT CAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE.




Ontop of living forever, they also go out of their way to lend help hands here and there. When was the last time Orks helped somebody?