What would you change for terminators?

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**SRSFACE**

DarthDiggler wrote:

It would take 93 bolter shots to drop 5 terminators,

As compared to how many shots to take out 14 Power Armor marines, which is points equivalent (with some room left over)? And each terminator that goes down hurts the overall effectiveness of the squad exponentially more than losing a handful of power armor guys, as well.

And this is just against bolters. Against Orks, a squad of Boys will overrun them with ease, eating through half the squad before the unwieldy weapons would get to strike (and Assault guys with Lightning Claws only do marginally better). Eldar chew through them with ease with their shuriken catapults. Necron and Dark Eldar field so many shots for price equivalency they almost always win out against Terminators.

Hell, the things you should charge with your terminators against a Tau list (their Riptides) often win combat against power fist terminators. It's ridiculous.

**pelicaniforce**

SRSFACE wrote:
There's been a handful of good ideas in this thread but man. Despite my strong feelings on GW's non-ability to balance, I am glad it's in their hands compared to some of the things bandied about in here.

Time to respond to the ideas I think are good:

Assault 3 Storm Bolters: I think this isn't a bad idea, even just flat out across the board for all storm bolters for space marines. Might have to up the cost of taking them on Sternguard and Captains and the like, but generally speaking they feel like they don't put out enough shots for the fluff behind them. Perhaps down the range to 18" to represent how they simply aren't as accurate as regular bolters. Or, a way to keep them great in the hands of Terminators and vehicles while less great in the hands of power armor guys is to make them Salvo 2/3. Then that relentless on every model would actually matter!

Upping WS/BS to 5, I think has some merit. It'd slightly up their shootiness (accuracy matters) especially with an assault cannon in the squad. As is they are most effective against other marines, so getting to hit on 3's in close combat would do wonders. Probably not enough of a boost in power to make them competitive for their current price point but I'd welcome the change. Maybe do this and also lift the sweeping advance restriction.

For we/bs, you should think of a ship captain. He fights in hand to hand very little, he trains very little for it, and he doesn't have any natural talent at it. However, he's grizzled, he's wily, and he bears a lot of responsibilities. If you storm the bridge of his ship, he is a tough opponent, even with his modest "weapon skill." This is the kind of quality - "attacks" - I think marine veteran companies recruit for. Every fourteenth guy in the chapter should be +1 bs, I don't think they get promoted for it though. If you want to make a case for all marines to have ws/bs 5, or that they should be scattered randomly around the normal marines, I can listen to that.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Personally, storm bolters being salvo 2/4 would allow you to not change the cost for anyone. With the added benefit of allowing terminators to be more mobile while using them than regular marines.

**Jefffar**

I'd go with something akin to the Wolf Guard terminators. Start them with a power weapon and storm bolter for around 33 - 35 points and make them very customizable. Maybe shave 5 points or so off the upgrade option pricing too. Net result small points drop and more options.

I'd probably add to the list of special weapons they can take as well. Since DA can get Plasma Cannons on their termies, it makes sense that Imperial Fists could get Heavy Bolters, Salamanders could get Multi-Meltas and Iron Fists could get Lascannons.

**Swagathore**

T5 against ranged. That solves your small arms issue.

**azgrim**

Here is some pretty simple fixes that should make terminators good

shooty- 30pts base,FNP, salvo 2/4 bolters with options for combi or special/heavy weapons for everyone
Assault - 35pts base,FNP,WS5 ,+1 Attack, HoW,, 4++

**thegreatchimp**

pelicaniforce wrote:

For we/bs, you should think of a ship captain. He fights in hand to hand very little, he trains very little for it, and he doesn't have any natural talent at it. However, he's grizzled, he's wily, and he bears a lot of responsibilities. If you storm the bridge of his ship, he is a tough opponent, even with his modest "weapon skill." This is the kind of quality - "attacks" - I think marine veteran companies recruit for. Every fourteenth guy in the chapter should be +1 bs, I don't think they get promoted for it though. If you want to make a case for all marines to have ws/bs 5, or that they should be scattered randomly around the normal marines, I can listen to that.

I don't know if you're aware but vets (including termies) did indeed used to be WS5 BS5. I harp on about 2nd edition way too much but here it is fyi:

Basic Marines were 4/4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8
Scouts were 4/4/3/4/3/1/4/1/7 (Sergeant was a basic marine)
Veteran Sergeants/Terminators were 4/5/5/4/4/1/5/1/9
Heroes were 4/6/6/5/5/2/6/2/10
Major Heroes were 4/7/7/5/5/3/7/3/10

**pelicaniforce**

See how the strength goes up, too.

The way close combat worked in second edition, weapon skill was less specific than it is now. I think the concept of baseline - champion - hero - major hero is still important, but with the modifiers available at the time the actual profiles are less directly informative.