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For range termies. Sterngard ammo and 4+ base ino save keep cost the same.
For assault termies give them +1 attack base and 4+ base invo. Also allow for dual thunder hammers.

T5 and grav weapons would basically make them centurions.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
T5 and grav weapons would basically make them centurions.

Good. Then we can get rid of the dumb Centurion models.

2 wounds would give them more survivability in combat (making them more likely to actually be able to use their powerfists). Deathwing Knights would become BEASTS!!!

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
T5 and grav weapons would basically make them centurions.

Than don't ask questions if your gonna critique the responses. So bikes are like centurions? Com'n man.

 Byte wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
T5 and grav weapons would basically make them centurions.

Than don't ask questions if your gonna critique the responses. So bikes are like centurions? Com'n man.

Sorry if it sounded harsh ( not my intention).

Your right T5 plus grav would be a HUGE improvement over what we got right now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For range termies. Sterngard ammo and 4+ base ino save keep cost the same.
For assault termies give them +1 attack base and 4+ base invo. Also allow for dual thunder hammers.

I like that idea, but then how do you manage stuff like DA, that soesn't make a distinction?
I'd give them all +1T (and increase the cost of MoN on the CSM termis), +1 BS and sternguard ammo because they're supposed to be the best of the best veterans.

This could make them more resilient, and the I'd give them the following options:
2 special weapons per 5 men.
Have -1BS, +1 WS and get a TH/SS loadout for +5pts.
Replace both for lightning claws for -5 pts.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
For range termies. Sterngard ammo and 4+ base ino save keep cost the same.
For assault termies give them +1 attack base and 4+ base invo. Also allow for dual thunder hammers.

I like that idea, but then how do you manage stuff like DA, that soesn't make a distinction?
I'd give them all +1T (and increase the cost of MoN on the CSM termis), +1 BS and sternguard ammo because they're supposed to be the best of the best veterans.

This could make them more resilient, and the I'd give them the following options:
2 special weapons per 5 men.
Have -1BS, +1 WS and get a TH/SS loadout for +5pts.
Replace both for lightning claws for -5 pts.

Why should handing a terminator a TH/SS suddenly make his stats change? And losing ballistic skill on a model that doesn't shoot doesn't justify upping his WS.

As for those dual TH, while it would look pretty cool, there really is nothing to justify taking two of them. It seems kind of silly.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
For range termies. Sterngard ammo and 4+ base ino save keep cost the same.
For assault termies give them +1 attack base and 4+ base invo. Also allow for dual thunder hammers.

I like that idea, but then how do you manage stuff like DA, that soesn't make a distinction?
I'd give them all +1T (and increase the cost of MoN on the CSM termis), +1 BS and sternguard ammo because they're supposed to be the best of the best veterans.

This could make them more resilient, and the I'd give them the following options:
2 special weapons per 5 men.
Have -1BS, +1 WS and get a TH/SS loadout for +5pts.
Replace both for lightning claws for -5 pts.

Why should handing a terminator a TH/SS suddenly make his stats change? And losing ballistic skill on a model that doesn't shoot doesn't justify upping his WS.

As for those dual TH, while it would look pretty cool, there really is nothing to justify taking two of them. It seems kind of silly.

The idea of the stat change is to represent the ones that specialise in melee or ranged combat. I'm not 100% sure that there's a distinction in the fluff though, apart from each warrior's personal preference.

The dual TH would be cool on HQs, but that's it. Why not as a modelling gimmick?

 kingbobbito wrote:

Why should handing a terminator a TH/SS suddenly make his stats change?

I agree. armour and weapons shouldn't effect baseline stats except where appropriate. There's already enough of that going around with riptides, etc.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Why should handing a terminator a TH/SS suddenly make his stats change?

I agree. armour and weapons shouldn't effect baseline stats except where appropriate. There's already enough of that going around with riptides, etc.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

Okay then. Just give all termis WS and BS 5 (say, from their veteran skills combined with enhancements from their armor, who'se increased size and power can supply better augments than that of power armor).

Yes, good call, I've long held to it that all sm veterans including termies should be WS5 and/or BS5. Other players will argue that mathematically it wouldn't actually increase their power much, but there's far more to the game than efficiency for points -units should be properly represented with approproate stats. Your idea with the special ammo isn't bad idea either, though personally I'd just like to see the storm bolter have a better rate of fire -it's currently no faster fiiring than a standard bolter at close range, in spite of having TWICE the number of barrels!

There's been a handful of good ideas in this thread but man. Despite my strong feelings on GW's non-ability to balance, I am glad it's in their hands compared to some of the things bandied about in here.

Time to respond to the ideas I think are good:

Assault 3 Storm Bolters: I think this isn't a bad idea, even just flat out across the board for all storm bolters for space marines. Might have to up the cost of taking them on Sternguard and Captains and the like, but generally speaking they feel like they don't put out enough shots for the fluff behind them. Perhaps down the range to 18" to represent how they simply aren't as accurate as regular bolters. Or, a way to keep them great in the hands of Terminators and vehicles while less great in the hands of power armor guys is to make them Salvo 2/3. Then that relentless on every model would actually matter!

Upping WS/BS to 5, I think has some merit. It'd slightly up their shootiness (accuracy matters) especially with an assault cannon in the squad. As is they are most effective against other marines, so getting to hit on 3's in close combat would do wonders. Probably not enough of a boost in power to make them competitive for their current price point but I'd welcome the change. Maybe do this and also lift the sweeping advance restriction.

It's not the problem of the terminator as much as the other problems in the game that make the terminator worse.

Reduce the number of ap 1-2 weapons across the game and the terminator becomes better.

Imagine a game with only loyalists plasmaguns and everyone's meltaguns (and equivilents) being ap 1-2. Everything else, like Grav guns etc.. Is no better then ap 3.

That would fix a lot with the terminator as it stands in the game.

Deathwing are pretty much OK for firepower
Plasma Cannons, (while at risk of killing the user) are awesome on Termies

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

Okay then. Just give all termis WS and BS 5 (say, from their veteran skills combined with enhancements from their armor, who'se increased size and power can supply better augments than that of power armor).

Yes, good call, I've long held to it that all sm veterans including termies should be WS5 and/or BS5. Other players will argue that mathematically it wouldn't actually increase their power much, but there's far more to the game than efficiency for points -units should be properly represented with approproate stats. Your idea with the special ammo isn't bad idea either, though personally I'd just like to see the storm bolter have a better rate of fire -it's currently no faster fiiring than a standard bolter at close range, in spite of having TWICE the number of barrels!

Hmmm, would this mean upping the WS of Deathwing Knights to 6, as they're already better than standard termies? I don't know if they should be able to match HQs like that, but at the same time I want them to maintain their superiority to regular ones, as one of their specialties is dealing with other terminators.

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's not the problem of the terminator as much as the other problems in the game that make the terminator worse.

Reduce the number of ap 1-2 weapons across the game and the terminator becomes better.

Imagine a game with only loyalists plasmaguns and everyone's meltaguns (and equivilents) being ap 1-2. Everything else, like Grav guns etc.. Is no better then ap 3.

That would fix a lot with the terminator as it stands in the game.

Reducing AP2 won't help, because terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point.

None of these proposed fixes will help much; they are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. If you give them all the ability to have assault cannons, then they become war walker equivalents and then they will be significant on the battlefield, because they can take out AP 2 sources before they get erased by them. The game is about offense now, unless you are a tough MC or have a 2++ rerollable.

Martel732 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's not the problem of the terminator as much as the other problems in the game that make the terminator worse.

Reduce the number of ap 1-2 weapons across the game and the terminator becomes better.

Imagine a game with only loyalists plasmaguns and everyone's meltaguns (and equivilents) being ap 1-2. Everything else, like Grav guns etc.. Is no better then ap 3.

That would fix a lot with the terminator as it stands in the game.

Reducing AP2 won't help, because terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point.

None of these proposed fixes will help much; they are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. If you give them all the ability to have assault cannons, then they become war walker equivalents and then they will be significant on the battlefield, because they can take out AP 2 sources before they get erased by them. The game is about offense now, unless you are a tough MC or have a 2++ rerollable.

Terminators aren't good at soaking small arms fire. Right. This kind of statement shows just how much of a genius you are at 40k.

It would take 93 bolter shots to drop 5 terminators, but like you said "terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point."

I like your idea better. Let's make terminators, who aren't even good at soaking small arms fire, 65pt models by giving them an assault cannon. This way they can still die to one shot from a Riptide's ap2 large blast gun (because we didn't make that gun ap3).

Drop in the terminators and let them kill a lone wave serpent?. Wait 5 Terminators with assault cannons average 1 penetrating hit on a jinking wave serpent. How is that making them better again?

DarthDiggler wrote:
Terminators aren't good at soaking small arms fire. Right. This kind of statement shows just how much of a genius you are at 40k.

They aren't. They are exactly twice as durable against small arms fire as Tactical Marines, but they cost almost 3 times as much.

I would give termies 2 wounds, but I would also do this:
Give them all chainfists as default (a single model would be worth 45 points instead of 40 points in 5th edition)
Remove the 'For every five models, one may take a heavy weapon' rule so all of them can have heavy weapons if they so choose.
Have the sergeant have a storm bolter and power fist to distinguish him from the rest.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's not the problem of the terminator as much as the other problems in the game that make the terminator worse.

Reduce the number of ap 1-2 weapons across the game and the terminator becomes better.

Imagine a game with only loyalists plasmaguns and everyone's meltaguns (and equivilents) being ap 1-2. Everything else, like Grav guns etc.. Is no better then ap 3.

That would fix a lot with the terminator as it stands in the game.

Reducing AP2 won't help, because terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point.

None of these proposed fixes will help much; they are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. If you give them all the ability to have assault cannons, then they become war walker equivalents and then they will be significant on the battlefield, because they can take out AP 2 sources before they get erased by them. The game is about offense now, unless you are a tough MC or have a 2++ rerollable.

Terminators aren't good at soaking small arms fire. Right. This kind of statement shows just how much of a genius you are at 40k.

It would take 93 bolter shots to drop 5 terminators, but like you said "terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point."

I like your idea better. Let's make terminators, who aren't even good at soaking small arms fire, 65pt models by giving them an assault cannon. This way they can still die to one shot from a Riptide's ap2 large blast gun (because we didn't make that gun ap3).

Drop in the terminators and let them kill a lone wave serpent?. Wait 5 Terminators with assault cannons average 1 penetrating hit on a jinking wave serpent. How is that making them better again?

I once saw this on a forum about Grots.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
you can't, but one grot model has 2x blasters, and another has stikk bombs, but neither actually benefits from them. There's no way to change grot's wargear of a single grot blasta and no armor. Only the runtherd has options.

As for utility of grots - 35 point objective holders. That's about it. Hold them in reserve and send them after objectives on your side of the board.

Grots are, without doubt or contest, the WORST combat unit in the game. Their only utility beyond cheap objective grabbers is to provide a screen for units for cover and to prevent charging.

For example, if you have grots in front of a group of nobz, the nobz get 5+ cover (mostly) from the grots, and enemies have to charge the grots before they get to the nobz.

My grot's (10-man squad) finest hour was once walking in from my board edge and somehow killing 2x terminators with shooting.

Big grot squads are better at screening, but remember they receive no benefit from MR, so it's easy to make them turn and run. Squig hounds help, a little, but not much. And if they are ever charged by anything, expect them to try to run and get sweeping advanced.

But that must have just been luck.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's not the problem of the terminator as much as the other problems in the game that make the terminator worse.

Reduce the number of ap 1-2 weapons across the game and the terminator becomes better.

Imagine a game with only loyalists plasmaguns and everyone's meltaguns (and equivilents) being ap 1-2. Everything else, like Grav guns etc.. Is no better then ap 3.

That would fix a lot with the terminator as it stands in the game.

Reducing AP2 won't help, because terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point.

None of these proposed fixes will help much; they are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. If you give them all the ability to have assault cannons, then they become war walker equivalents and then they will be significant on the battlefield, because they can take out AP 2 sources before they get erased by them. The game is about offense now, unless you are a tough MC or have a 2++ rerollable.

Terminators aren't good at soaking small arms fire. Right. This kind of statement shows just how much of a genius you are at 40k.

It would take 93 bolter shots to drop 5 terminators, but like you said "terminators aren't even good at soaking small arms fire at their price point."

I like your idea better. Let's make terminators, who aren't even good at soaking small arms fire, 65pt models by giving them an assault cannon. This way they can still die to one shot from a Riptide's ap2 large blast gun (because we didn't make that gun ap3).

Drop in the terminators and let them kill a lone wave serpent?. Wait 5 Terminators with assault cannons average 1 penetrating hit on a jinking wave serpent. How is that making them better again?

I wouldn't charge 65 pts/model for an assault cannon terminator, either. And I believe the above poster illustrated my point about terminators quite clearly. Basic marines are better small arms soakers than terminators. So terminators will never have the durability role in a list. What is left but firepower?

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't charge 65 pts/model for an assault cannon terminator, either. And I believe the above poster illustrated my point about terminators quite clearly. Basic marines are better small arms soakers than terminators. So terminators will never have the durability role in a list. What is left but firepower?

If you math it the reason Terminators are as expensive as they are is the powerfists. Drop back to power swords base and you can justify dropping the price to the point where they're not strictly worse than Tac Marines anywhere but melee.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't charge 65 pts/model for an assault cannon terminator, either. And I believe the above poster illustrated my point about terminators quite clearly. Basic marines are better small arms soakers than terminators. So terminators will never have the durability role in a list. What is left but firepower?

If you math it the reason Terminators are as expensive as they are is the powerfists. Drop back to power swords base and you can justify dropping the price to the point where they're not strictly worse than Tac Marines anywhere but melee.

I was going to say for my assault cannon terminators that we should remove the powerfists as well. 65 pts/model is not what I would charge anyway because both the terminator and assault cannon are overpriced currently. This unit would actually be pretty good against the new Wraiths because of volume of fire. It's all about volume of fire now. Go big or go home. Quality of fire means little now.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't charge 65 pts/model for an assault cannon terminator, either. And I believe the above poster illustrated my point about terminators quite clearly. Basic marines are better small arms soakers than terminators. So terminators will never have the durability role in a list. What is left but firepower?

If you math it the reason Terminators are as expensive as they are is the powerfists. Drop back to power swords base and you can justify dropping the price to the point where they're not strictly worse than Tac Marines anywhere but melee.

I was going to say for my assault cannon terminators that we should remove the powerfists as well. 65 pts/model is not what I would charge anyway because both the terminator and assault cannon are overpriced currently. This unit would actually be pretty good against the new Wraiths because of volume of fire. It's all about volume of fire now. Go big or go home. Quality of fire means little now.

Then why don't you make Storm Bolters four or five shots? You wouldn't be paying as much as you would for assault cannons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't charge 65 pts/model for an assault cannon terminator, either. And I believe the above poster illustrated my point about terminators quite clearly. Basic marines are better small arms soakers than terminators. So terminators will never have the durability role in a list. What is left but firepower?

If you math it the reason Terminators are as expensive as they are is the powerfists. Drop back to power swords base and you can justify dropping the price to the point where they're not strictly worse than Tac Marines anywhere but melee.

I was going to say for my assault cannon terminators that we should remove the powerfists as well. 65 pts/model is not what I would charge anyway because both the terminator and assault cannon are overpriced currently. This unit would actually be pretty good against the new Wraiths because of volume of fire. It's all about volume of fire now. Go big or go home. Quality of fire means little now.

Then why don't you make Storm Bolters four or five shots? You wouldn't be paying as much as you would for assault cannons.

Because S4 shooting sucks like nothing has sucked before. (Beavis and Butthead reference, not to be taken literally) Even S3 shooting is better, because it is usually that much cheaper. Get ST 6 or go home. Ask the Eldar about this. And assault cannons are super overcosted. They should be cheaper than scatter lasers, because 12" range extra >>>>>> rending.

Martel732 wrote:
Because S4 shooting sucks like nothing has sucked before. (Beavis and Butthead reference, not to be taken literally) Even S3 shooting is better, because it is usually that much cheaper. Get ST 6 or go home. Ask the Eldar about this. And assault cannons are super overcosted. They should be cheaper than scatter lasers, because 12" range extra >>>>>> rending.

...So...shooting quality doesn't matter...except when it does?

 kingbobbito wrote:

Hmmm, would this mean upping the WS of Deathwing Knights to 6, as they're already better than standard termies? I don't know if they should be able to match HQs like that, but at the same time I want them to maintain their superiority to regular ones, as one of their specialties is dealing with other terminators.

Hadn't considered that...hard to say. Maybe give them hatred...for everything?! (It seems appropriate for them)

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Hmmm, would this mean upping the WS of Deathwing Knights to 6, as they're already better than standard termies? I don't know if they should be able to match HQs like that, but at the same time I want them to maintain their superiority to regular ones, as one of their specialties is dealing with other terminators.

Hadn't considered that...hard to say. Maybe give them hatred...for everything?! (It seems appropriate for them)

Either that or turn their preferred enemy (chaos marines) to just preferred enemy (everyone).

 kingbobbito wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Hmmm, would this mean upping the WS of Deathwing Knights to 6, as they're already better than standard termies? I don't know if they should be able to match HQs like that, but at the same time I want them to maintain their superiority to regular ones, as one of their specialties is dealing with other terminators.

Hadn't considered that...hard to say. Maybe give them hatred...for everything?! (It seems appropriate for them)

Either that or turn their preferred enemy (chaos marines) to just preferred enemy (everyone).

Hmmmm...... That's actually a really good idea.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because S4 shooting sucks like nothing has sucked before. (Beavis and Butthead reference, not to be taken literally) Even S3 shooting is better, because it is usually that much cheaper. Get ST 6 or go home. Ask the Eldar about this. And assault cannons are super overcosted. They should be cheaper than scatter lasers, because 12" range extra >>>>>> rending.

...So...shooting quality doesn't matter...except when it does?

They are both S6. That's what matters for quality. Rending is a weak rule, unless it is army-wide like the Eldar. Who also have the scatter laser; which is far superior to the assault cannon, I might add.

There are cases where you want AP 2, but high ROF weapons are never going to those kinds of weapons.