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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

Amen! Though we're more of the Basement-gamer variety.
My club meets mostly at members homes (we do the FLGS every few months). None of this drama, hurt feelings, etc. Things headed toward nastyness once a couple years ago and I (as the organizer) stepped in set the parties strait. There's been nothing but good times since!

There's alot to be said for being able to be choosy in your choice of opponents.

There is nothing about a game store that says you don't have to be choosy about your opponents. There is nothing saying you have to be social with everyone. But it does mean you have to maintain a level of common courtesy.

Nor does having a private or group space mean there can't be drama.

Just because you have a nice group that plays at home, doesn't mean you need to find excuses to poo poo game stores.

My local game store is a great place to hang out, meet new gamers, and so on. If someone comes in and is a pain, no one games with them, just like with any group.

In fact, the biggest drama in store in my area has actually been from a group that tended to play locally getting really self-righteous and storming off all huffypuffy.

There's good and bad stores, and there's good an bad groups. But first and foremost, there's good and bad individual players.

And a lot of times I see messages like this, I'm doubtful of the content because, to be frank, from posts all through my gaming life there's a 50/50 chance that the person posting is the problem just as much as the people being complained about are.

 Vertrucio wrote:

Just because you have a nice group that plays at home, doesn't mean you need to find excuses to poo poo game stores.

Woah tiger.
I didn't dis FLGS, I just expressed how pleased I was to have a home-based group where I can exercise a greater degree of influence over the the participants and their behavior.
You can be choosy anywhere, but I maintain it's a bit easier to be sure of the quality of person you'll be facing in an established private group than an open arena like a FLGS.

I've had some good games at my FLGS, but the last 4 years of being the organizer for a game club have been the best-quality and least-drama gaming of my life. YMMV, but I wouldn't trade this stable group of mature and like-minded gamers for the FLGS scene unless I had no choice.

Three other contributing factors to my point of view:
-Our club only plays painted figures. When we do our game night at the club (about once every couple of months) the painted miniature situation is less than inspiring.
-Our club focuses on the kind of indie miniatures and games that I'm really interested in.
-Many of our club members have become close personal friends of mine. You can of course make great friends at the FLGS too, but the home environment is ideal for this.

Nah, I was talking about others getting more extreme in this thread. I actually play a mix of home and at store, and even once a month at another home for an intense boardgame night. I don't find the two any different save for where you are and what you imbibe.

That said, you don't have to trade anything, it never was a trade, nor is it a separate thing. It's just gaming, wherever you choose to play.

I am more welcoming of new people than most though, it's very difficult to annoy me at anything save for cheating, that and exclusivity mindsets. I was around during the dark times of miniature gaming after the collapse of a bunch of games and communities, so rebuilding communities after they went to other stuff was difficult.

I find that there are some groups (probably not yours) that are pointlessly exclusive, and eventually that turns to a weird elitism that I see show up in forums, and in daily interactions, which goes against the idea of building more and better gaming communities, regardless of where you play. I see the hobby as, "Yeah! we're playing tabletop games together!" I don't need to see the hobby as, "Yeah, I'm away from those filhty plebeians!" to enjoy myself.

The store owner has no obligation to welcome Bob.
Bob should take his queue leave and go elsewhere, however discerning gamers should go with him, it's clearly the better half of the community.

 Bullockist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

The proof is in the attitude of the WAAChole WMH players, which you are doing a pretty good job of displaying. It's OK, and I'm glad you've found a game that appreciates "your kind".

Immediately jumping to calling people WAACholes, aka namecalling, doesn't really bring people to your side of the argument.

There are those guys all over the place, in or out of stores and game groups. I've seen more of those types in Yu Gi Oh and Magic, Flames of War, and the Warhammer games while out and about the gaming scene.

So that type is not restricted to Warmachine, and no more common than any other game. Warmachine is probably the second most popular miniature game out there, that popularity means more players, more events, and thus more chances to encounter those types.

I don't play Warmachine often, but when I do I don't see many of those types, or I just naturally avoid those rarities. As others have said in this thread, just because those types exist doesn't mean you, or anyone, has to play with them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

The proof is in the attitude of the WAAChole WMH players, which you are doing a pretty good job of displaying. It's OK, and I'm glad you've found a game that appreciates "your kind".

What 'attitude' is he displaying though?

'Your kind'? 'Waachole WMH players'? You talk about attitude, and yet, Youre being just as Dismissive and Elitist, no?

You've also quoted mark 1's page 5. Which was extremely over the top. Amusing, but ott. It Also mentioned driving over your grandmas house.Nothing like it any more. In fact, current says page 5 is never an excuse to be a jerk.

For the record, the five tenets of page 5.

Thou shalt not whine.
Come heavy or don't come at all.
Give as good as you get.
Win graciously and lose valiantly.
Page five is not an excuse.

And some quotes for you from page 5 with regard to its last point. ' It's not permission to be a jackass.' 'It not a shield to hide behind.' 'Page 5 is never, ever EVER a licence to diminish another player so you can inflate your own vertically challenged self esteem'. Pretty much the opposite of what you claim it to be.

You're right. Page 5 should define the WMH player. It should define every player, full stop. Those five points above? Thry should be everyone's mantra. 'We all come here to battle out of a common love. Respect page 5. Respect each other'. But page 5 does not define, encourage or embrace WAAC culture by any stretch of the imagination. Saying it does - I'm sorry,but that's innacurate, it's a disservice to all the decent players of the game to just be labeled as you've done.

I'm still trying to figure out what attitude I am displaying. I just said to be a good sport. If that's waac then sign me up. You garage banished sound like a right barrel of laughs. I do find it interesting that modern trolls hang in garages not under bridges.

If you're not seeing the attitude behind the words, no amount of pointing will help. Same with PP trying to softpedal the words with a wink and a nudge in later editions. They can't take back who they are, nor the sort of players they want to attract.

Suffice to say, there is a lot more going on than merely being a "good sport".

Regardless, if a game / group / ethos / whatever "fits", then that's great. Rock on.

Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

It seems you're being less of a good sport in this topic. That's a giant load of cognitive dissonance there.

Grasping onto a single thread and reading way too much into it is just another kind of, that guy-ism.

I'd take the guy you're arguing with over some guy overreacting on a forum, unwilling to let go of some slight from what is it now, 10 years ago?

Ugh. The second page 5 came up i knew this thread would go off the rails.


I used to be an infernal for them, and i can tell you that the message has always been mostly the same, but the delivery mechanism and extremity of delivery behind page 5 has changed. It started out as that late ninetimes, early 00's "adrenaline infused Triple Xtreme !!!!" kind of marketing message that was popular in the era. There certainly were the elements of the "play hard, play fair, play nice, be a good sport, don't be a jerk" thing its evolved into, but Prime MK 1's Page 5 (if any of you still have a copy) was over the damn top.

It later got a lot of heat for a lot of reasons, and they very cleverly evolved it into a toned down version of the " IN YOUR FACE XTREME!" marketing style, into what it was by the time i left the Infernals (Which was just before the book with the Hordes Gargantuans in them... its been a while i forget its name). THAT SAID... the message always has (with various levels of machismo) been "Play hard, Play Fair, Play Nice, Don't be a dick."


THat said, if we want to talk about Page 5, can we start another thread, because this one's getting hi jacked by that, and it's not what this thread is about. Because you can't mention anything about Page 5 without any thread getting way, way off topic, and ultimately this thread is about social interactions between groups and people at stores ; it is anecdotal to the point of the thread that some of the people are Pressgangers, and thereby tangentially involves Privateer at all.


Seriously. No one is going to convince Page 5 is good that doesn't like it, and no one is going to convince its bad to those that do like it.


(FWIW because i know tensions run high and there's clearly Pro and Anti Warmachine players in this thread, though i don't play it anymore, I happen to think it's one of the better games on the market, and that the way (most of the time) PP goes to market is brilliant. If my signature is back working from last evening, then on the flip side of the coin i have tens of thousands of WHFB armies, so i'm trying to be unbiased here).

Please take the Page 5 talk elsewhere. It has nothing to do with the situation here. I don't think Bob came in all "Page 5, fethers! No sissies here!" But probably made it clear he wanted to run official events since he's a PG and that made him sound like a jerk for "forcing" that playstyle on the rest since they basically could give a rats behind about official anything. He also came in during an unofficial slow grow league so I'm pretty sure that the whole "I can run official events" is what rubbed people the wrong way. For a little while on days he didn't get down to the shop others would joke around about "wait this isn't an official game Bob isn't here!"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

Some do. Sure. Just like some moms make sure their kids learn proper spelling and grammar and some don't.

However, I've had excellent experiences with FLGS that don't guilt you into anything, host nightly events for various game systems, are pleasant to talk to, leave you alone when you want to browse, and allow you to play most any game and meet new players. Painting all game stores and owner with the label of "Guilt tripping, greed mongers" is neither fair nor accurate.

I've met good friends through casual game nights at game stores. It's still an excellent way to meet new people, make a gaming group, and learn which people to avoid.

 kronk wrote:
Some do. Sure. Just like some moms make sure their kids learn proper spelling and grammar and some don't.

However, I've had excellent experiences with FLGS that don't guilt you into anything, host nightly events for various game systems, are pleasant to talk to, leave you alone when you want to browse, and allow you to play most any game and meet new players. Painting all game stores and owner with the label of "Guilt tripping, greed mongers" is neither fair nor accurate.

I've met good friends through casual game nights at game stores. It's still an excellent way to meet new people, make a gaming group, and learn which people to avoid.

Not to derail my own thread (especially since I posted a similar thread on this exact topic a few weeks ago) IMHO a store needs to offer more than just table space in this day and age. When you're competing with 30% discount, usually no sales tax so the discount is really 30% not less, and receiving an item in a few days by ordering online, not to mention often a much wider selection of stock, "I have tables for you to play at" just doesn't cut it anymore. Only a fool would spend more money and wait longer for a less selection of choice. Of course I say that because my store doesn't have a lot of stock and it's often "zero in stock" on the distributor when I try to order anything coupled with barely any discount. If you have a store that gives say a 20+% discount and has a huge section of product, it's a lot easier to just buy it there even if you pay a bit more than ordering online when you factor in sales tax.

Anyways back to the topic at hand: I'm honestly not sure what I plan to do. The issue is the other two game stores are about an hour's drive while this one is around 20 minutes, and both the other stores tend to have game days during the week which makes it harder to schedule time to go down there. I told Bob he should contact Privateer but his response was basically "Why bother, what are they going to do about it" but to be honest, it's not my problem or my business. Bob's an adult and can take care of himself, I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store as well as painting him as the bad guy for taking back terrain that wasn't appreciated.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store

When it comes down to it that's the store owners prerogative. If he wants to run a hostile storefront he has every right to do so as ultimately he's the owner and it's his call. However it's also up to the patrons to decide if they will support the store or not by granting or withdrawing their support. Customers vote with their dollar, outside of that there's very little chance that anything will change how the store is run. Privateer isn't mommy or the third grade teacher who'll set things right with a phone call. There's a lot of a-hole people out there you can't change them, but at the same time you don't need to deal with them. If you're unhappy with the store try someplace else and create you own group or community.

Like with any business the tone and culture is set by the person in charge: the store owner.
They pay for the space but they pay it with what money you choose to spend at the store so you do have some power as a customer.

BUT the store owner decides what is acceptable and what is not.

If what they allow is not agreeable to you there are only a couple of options:
- try to insulate yourself from what you don't like by only interacting with those who behave "properly".
- take your time and money elsewhere, the only effective means of bringing change to a business is hitting them in the wallet.

I do not have much trouble with rude people when gaming because I have had to stick-up for my recreation time rather strongly to get it (kids-hockey-karate-stuff, busy wife, busy work).
We all should be there to have fun, if at the expense of others... NO, shutting down, right now, go find a "victim" somewhere else, my fun time is limited and important to me.
I have found some absolutely fun outstanding people to play and in multiple kinds of games so abandoning a FLGS is not to be taken lightly due to the opportunity.

Any comments on "competitive" gamers I maintain: sure, they want a challenge, fluff-fight OR bring-it-on is fun either way as long as you know what you are getting into.

I tend to like to avoid group "politicians" that feel they own a group or it is their scene: it shows an unhealthy form of entitlement and some insanity of thinking they can get people to tow the line, it will work up to a point.

Yeah, it always fun to delve into the drama of gaming, as if just wrestling with a rule-set is not challenge enough.

 stanman wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store

When it comes down to it that's the store owners prerogative. If he wants to run a hostile storefront he has every right to do so as ultimately he's the owner and it's his call. However it's also up to the patrons to decide if they will support the store or not by granting or withdrawing their support. Customers vote with their dollar, outside of that there's very little chance that anything will change how the store is run. Privateer isn't mommy or the third grade teacher who'll set things right with a phone call. There's a lot of a-hole people out there you can't change them, but at the same time you don't need to deal with them. If you're unhappy with the store try someplace else and create you own group or community.

I have actually seen a FLGS go out of business because when it opened up, the other established FLGS used that opportunity to purge all the non-customers and anti-social people. He knew if he threw them out, they would take their group to the other store.

They got rid of the horrible people and dead weight *AND* saddled the new store with a group of people who were full of bad attitudes and didn't spend money. It actually freed up his store to have better customers and people were happy they were gone.

Sometimes throwing the bad people out is 'good' for business.

1. Joe and the Store Owner are in cahoots. Joe "owns" the events and game time. Joes does little to promote the game or run events.
2. Bob shows up. Bob makes nice terrain for others to use. Bob tries to run events. Bob has passion for the game.
3. Joe and Owner make life miserable for Bob so he walks away with better things to do than deal with a couple of children.

Answer: Find out what store Bob is doing things at and start going their. He has his stuff together. Let others know Bob has his stuff together. Let Joe and Owner have their little Empire...it will soon die on the vine.

 Haight wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A


He's perfect for South Park's anger management: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386586/anger-management-class

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?


What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

Sounds to me like he needs to spend less time examining his friend's junk.

KellyJ wrote:
1. Joe and the Store Owner are in cahoots. Joe "owns" the events and game time. Joes does little to promote the game or run events.
2. Bob shows up. Bob makes nice terrain for others to use. Bob tries to run events. Bob has passion for the game.
3. Joe and Owner make life miserable for Bob so he walks away with better things to do than deal with a couple of children.

Answer: Find out what store Bob is doing things at and start going their. He has his stuff together. Let others know Bob has his stuff together. Let Joe and Owner have their little Empire...it will soon die on the vine.

Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

WayneTheGame wrote:


Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

You and Bob need to go to meetup.com and either find a local existing meetup for tabletop gaming and ask to make an event via their meetup, or make a new meetup.

Meetup.com is pretty awesome in my area because it gets the word out and really can support FLGS, Home gaming and clubs and such in neutral locations. It has become my go-to for finding gaming.

If you guys can find a good location, Bob has the drive to organize play and terrain. And 2 of you make a 'game'. I know many restaurants which have either back-rooms or surplus of tables and would gladly let you guys monopolize it for a few hours during low times. 1-4PM on sundays and often sunday night is super slow at many places. I game at both a Diner and a Pizza Parlor in my area via meetups. I know tabletop gaming takes larger tables and terrains, but if you willing to do the work you can get your gaming and cut the ties of the FLGS.

nkelsch wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:


Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

You and Bob need to go to meetup.com and either find a local existing meetup for tabletop gaming and ask to make an event via their meetup, or make a new meetup.

Meetup.com is pretty awesome in my area because it gets the word out and really can support FLGS, Home gaming and clubs and such in neutral locations. It has become my go-to for finding gaming.

If you guys can find a good location, Bob has the drive to organize play and terrain. And 2 of you make a 'game'. I know many restaurants which have either back-rooms or surplus of tables and would gladly let you guys monopolize it for a few hours during low times. 1-4PM on sundays and often sunday night is super slow at many places. I game at both a Diner and a Pizza Parlor in my area via meetups. I know tabletop gaming takes larger tables and terrains, but if you willing to do the work you can get your gaming and cut the ties of the FLGS.

We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

Yes.

I have a lot of GW toys, and I'm pretty happy about that. That's where the overwhelming majority of my gaming dollars and time have gone. What a casual glance at my signature misses is that those purchases have been over a 15+year period, primarily in the first several years. It also inaccurately (and ignorantly) conflates ownership of product with the notion of being an active promoter of current product and/or business practices. Unlike Bob & Joe, I've never been a Press Ganger / Outrider / whatever. It just means that I had a big wallet that I opened to buy a lot of toys that I liked. Go ahead and guess how much I've spent on current GW product over the past 15-odd months.

Unlike you, I understand business exists to make money, and that the best approach is to continue capturing spend from existing customers. I will *never* fault GW for "milking" their players wallets dry - that's the point of the company. If players don't find value and don't want to buy something, they shouldn't. When you go to a restaurant, to you bitch at the waitstaff and sommellier for trying to upsell you on apps, drinks and wine, or dessert & coffee? Do you bitch at the car salesman for trying to upsell you on packages or options? That's their job.

Balance-wise, it's kind of laughable that you're making a stink about that. Is GW "balance" a new thing to complain about? Was it perfectly balanced, and only now a problem? Has GW ever said that perfect balance was core design and development objective? What a weak strawman to complain about.

Unlike PP, GW has always placed The Most Important Rule up front, and they very clearly define a particular gaming ethos that has no room for WAAC play:

The Most Important Rule

Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game, with many different armies, weapons and possibilities. In a game of this size and complexity there are bound to be occasions where a particular situation lies outside these rules, often when unusual models interact. At other times you may know the rule is covered but you just can't seem to find the right page. Then again you may know the rule, but the reality of exactly where your models are on the table may make it a really close call - measuring assault moves and deciding if a key model is in cover are classic examples.

All of these instances can lead to arguments, so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure that both players - not just the victor - have a good time. If a dispute does crop up then work out the answer in a gentlemanly manner. Many players simply like to roll off and let the dice decide who is right, allowing them to get straight back to blasting each other to pieces. After the game you can happily continue your discussion ofthe finer points of the rules, or agree how you will both interpret them should the same situation happen again. You could even decide to change the rules to suit you better (this is known as 'house rules').

The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.

[Jervis Johnson, Warhammer 40,000 - 5th Ed. p.2]

WayneTheGame wrote:


We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

35 miles is damn far IMHO. But that could also be through the lens of my Metro area. I used to make the 38 mile drive to the GW HQ for gaming when we had the battle bunker in Glen Burnie, and even then it was hard to justify that drive,

But I guess it all depends on where the gamers are.

38 miles is super far, especially on the East Coast, where population is very dense.

38 miles might be a trip to the store in Montana / North Dakota.

38 miles is very far even out West here in California.

I'm coming into this conversation late, but I had a similar experience.

A few years back, A new store opened in my area. Initially there was no wargaming community to speak of (40k, warmachine, etc). I worked pretty hard to help grow the community for one game: scratch building tables, making terrain, running events, etc etc.

A little over a year ago, an individual moved to the area and started frequenting the store..and proceeded to start trolling me in various social media venues related to this LGS. In an effort to try to expand the number of games played at this LGS, I started trying to demo other games that were not currently being played there. Well, the previously-mentioned individual (who was not an employee at the time), started harassing me and accusing me of devaluing the merchandise currently stocked by the LGS. I tried to explain that very few people only play one game, and that the more people play, the more money they are likely to spend overall. Well, long story short, the individual in question not only continued his harrassment, but expanded it to include my wife and friends.

When I complained to the store owner, I was told that he couldn't do anything because the individual was not an employee of the store. About a week later, he hired the guy. When the abuse continued, I complained again and was told that "I can't do anything if he's not claiming to speak on behalf of the store."

I've pretty much stopped having anything to do with that location; which is a shame, because it's pretty much the only store in town.

nkelsch wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:


We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

35 miles is damn far IMHO. But that could also be through the lens of my Metro area. I used to make the 38 mile drive to the GW HQ for gaming when we had the battle bunker in Glen Burnie, and even then it was hard to justify that drive,

But I guess it all depends on where the gamers are.

That's pretty much it, my area already doesn't have a lot of stores and it's always been a drive, so to finally have one close by... you can see the dilemma. Actually I just checked, the other two are around 28-30 miles so I was off by a few, but still. It's about an hour's drive one way without traffic.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

Yes.

I have a lot of GW toys, and I'm pretty happy about that. That's where the overwhelming majority of my gaming dollars and time have gone. What a casual glance at my signature misses is that those purchases have been over a 15+year period, primarily in the first several years. It also inaccurately (and ignorantly) conflates ownership of product with the notion of being an active promoter of current product and/or business practices. Unlike Bob & Joe, I've never been a Press Ganger / Outrider / whatever. It just means that I had a big wallet that I opened to buy a lot of toys that I liked. Go ahead and guess how much I've spent on current GW product over the past 15-odd months.

Unlike you, I understand business exists to make money, and that the best approach is to continue capturing spend from existing customers. I will *never* fault GW for "milking" their players wallets dry - that's the point of the company. If players don't find value and don't want to buy something, they shouldn't. When you go to a restaurant, to you bitch at the waitstaff and sommellier for trying to upsell you on apps, drinks and wine, or dessert & coffee? Do you bitch at the car salesman for trying to upsell you on packages or options? That's their job.

Balance-wise, it's kind of laughable that you're making a stink about that. Is GW "balance" a new thing to complain about? Was it perfectly balanced, and only now a problem? Has GW ever said that perfect balance was core design and development objective? What a weak strawman to complain about.

Unlike PP, GW has always placed The Most Important Rule up front, and they very clearly define a particular gaming ethos that has no room for WAAC play:

The Most Important Rule

Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game, with many different armies, weapons and possibilities. In a game of this size and complexity there are bound to be occasions where a particular situation lies outside these rules, often when unusual models interact. At other times you may know the rule is covered but you just can't seem to find the right page. Then again you may know the rule, but the reality of exactly where your models are on the table may make it a really close call - measuring assault moves and deciding if a key model is in cover are classic examples.

All of these instances can lead to arguments, so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure that both players - not just the victor - have a good time. If a dispute does crop up then work out the answer in a gentlemanly manner. Many players simply like to roll off and let the dice decide who is right, allowing them to get straight back to blasting each other to pieces. After the game you can happily continue your discussion ofthe finer points of the rules, or agree how you will both interpret them should the same situation happen again. You could even decide to change the rules to suit you better (this is known as 'house rules').

The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.

[Jervis Johnson, Warhammer 40,000 - 5th Ed. p.2]

You really have a axe to grind with Warmachine/Hoards don't you? Because I don't see how this has ANYTHING to do with the OP.

You also seem to take Warmachine' s growing popularity very personally. It's like War machine stole your girlfriend or something.

Warmachine didn't steal his girlfriend, it just stole a lot of 40k players that wouldn't blindly accept with GW's BS like he does. Well, most likely it was other competitors like X-Wing.

It's become clear that he's a GW apologist, and hell, I like 40k a great deal. Doesn't mean I can't see through it. All that BS GW spouts about sportsmanship and gentlemanlyness is just a cover for them being about to get away with doing half the work.

GW games have every bit the room for WAAC play, especially now with unbound armies, no comp tournaments, and more. They allow WAAC players because they step aside, handwave, and Jedi mind trick all the types like you that blindly accept.

No one is buying your argument John. And the only reason why we're even talking is because you're constantly jumping into threads just to rage at 40k's dwindling playerbase, when no one cares.

Which, going back to the original discussion, is the kind of mindset that can lead to these kind of disputes and drama in game stores or in local play groups. I had a group split up because one half saw the hobby world blindly pro-GW and anti-everything else as you do, without knowing it and letting their opinions be swayed by that bias. I heard these same people have the nerve to call Battletech not a miniatures game. Calling one of the original big miniature games, "not a miniatures game," because it wasn't a GW game, is a new kind of low in terms of cognitive dissonance.

Well, nowadays those guys might still play GW, but they're also playing a lot of other games they wouldn't consider miniature games. Many play Warmachine, and you know what I hear them comment? They do encounter WAAC players, but no more than before, and just like in the 40k community, or in any community, you just don't bother playing with or engaging with those WAAC players at all.