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 Ashiraya wrote:
How, exactly, does zealotry increase accuracy?

Training and calm does, and a SoB is not superior to other BS4 troops in that. (Except possibly IG veterans)

Willpower, not zealotry.

SOB focus themselves through their faith to perform acts through Willpower. See my Batman post above.

I still don't see why that should be unique to SoB in any way.

Your gun doesn't care if you have faith or not, only that you hold it steady, something a Chaos renegade can do just as well if not better (thanks to more strength.)

Unless they use their space magic powers, of course.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I still don't see why that should be unique to SoB in any way.

It isn't unique to them. There are plenty of other models that can add rending to their attacks through precision or other means. Same with Ignore Cover, Furious Charge, etc.


It is, however, common to them (meaning they can do it en-masse) because their training/faith allows them to regularly reach the levels of willpower necessary to do it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Determination and adrenaline won't grant your guns greatly increased punch (to the point where they bring down the heaviest of tanks with HMG fire) or make your Melta beams bend around corners.

Think of it as the retributor being so talented she can just shoot her heavy bolter with the precision of a sniper rifle, hence rending .
And melta vaporize everything in the way, so it should be ignore cover all the time anyway.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I still don't see why that should be unique to SoB in any way.

I do not see why ATSKNF should be unique to loyalists in any way either, but it is.

In regard to the SoB religious practice, they aren't crazy zealots screaming hatred all the time. In fact, it's the exact opposite. They are zealot in the sense that took their religious practice to an extreme.

They are the most devout worshiper of a God of war (the Emperor). Yet they are describe has serene, calm and composed on the battlefield and extremely disciplined unlike mobs of cultists (both Imperium or Ruinous Power aligned).

That's one of the reason that, if you read Faith and Fire, they despise flagelants and hate speech for they lack the calm and clarity necessary to fight and worship. They also have only contempt for things like pride, glory, fame and riches. Their highest ranking commander is elected in virtue who wants the job the least. Commanding is a penance to them not a privilege.

The foundation of their combat doctrine is based on martial and spiritual purity. Which means that SoB are fonctionnaly Shaolin nuns in space. Expert martial artist who view the practice of war and controlled agression has a way to reach spiritual enlightenment, purity and connection with the divine (in the case of the SoB, the Emperor). Instead of staffs, swords and spear their sacred weapons are bolters, flamers and melta weapons (back on San Leor, they were famed for being incredible warriors who fought with spear and swords). Their expertise with them must be something almost supernatural even to trained soldiers. This may be the root for imagining a heavy bolter weilding retributor has accurate has a sniper.

 pretre wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Except, you know, Rending means their weapons suddenly tear apart vehicles their weapons could not possibly damage in any way before.

You don't become more accurate because you get adrenaline.

It's easy enough to tear apart a tank if you can precisely strike the weak spot or view port or fuel tank. That's what is happening, imo. That's just increased accuracy. Accuracy can be increased with willpower.

How the hell is that hitting a critical spot? Hitting a critical spot on a tank is scoring a penetrating hit that causes an explosion....you know like how tanks actually explode when you blow up their ammunition or ignite the fuel. Rending isn't a "critical hit", it's a type of attack or an attribute of a certain type of ammunition. Hence why some Tyranid have rending, because they are ripping the tank apart, not socring precise critical hits that cause the ammo to go up in smoke lol- that would kill them.

Again, SOBs are space clerics. FFG and the Black Library is completely solid on this with them pulling off stunts that are blatantly magical. It's not an adrnealine rush, they already are pumped with adrenaline because they're in bloody combat and their adrenal gland is flooding their bloodstream from the start of combat. On top of any drugs contained in the power armor being directly injected into the wearer's bloodsteam.

Actually, read the main rule book. It is a critical hit.

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is that hitting a critical spot?

That is the reason snipers have rending. They hit critical spot in the armor. Or they snipe the crew of the vehicle. Or stuff.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
How the hell is that hitting a critical spot?

That is the reason snipers have rending. They hit critical spot in the armor. Or they snipe the crew of the vehicle. Or stuff.

No, that's likely just because the ammunition they're using is traveling at higher velocities then normal ammunition or packing more energy... y'know like the ammunition snipers use for their rifles in real life. Hitting a critical spot is penning tank armor and rolling for an explosion on the table.

Again, read your rulebook. Rending is specifically calls out as being a critical strike type thing.

It's still irrelevant as your weapon does not magically critically strike because you're faithful.

Unless it is actual magic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I do not see why ATSKNF should be unique to loyalists in any way either, but it is.

Tu quoque.

The "the emperor is a warp entity created by belief" thing does not actually fit 40K pseudotheology.

Warp entities are not created by belief. They are created by emotions. Belief in something is not an emotion; not does emotion felt about about a particular entity fuel that entity should it ecist. If a trillion trillion people believe in Santa Claus, Santa will not start to exist. On the other hand, their incredible feeling of Christmas Spirit will fuel entities in the warp who likely bear no resemblance to Santa.

So, the residents of the Imperium all believing in the Emperor's godhood will in no way make him into a warp entity. It will have no effect on the warp at all, actually. Now, all the emotions (hope, fear, etc.) that they have attached to the Emperor _will_ have an effect on the warp, but they will not create a warp Emperor -- they will rather fuel whatever entities feed on/crystallize around such emotiions.

So.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact it is one of the main grimdark elements of the setting that all the hope and love that people feel in relation to the Emperor are in fact feeding Chaos.

@Ashiraya

Since you are of the opinion that Acts of Faith and some of the SoB abilities are of supernatural nature.

Would you tell me how you think this affect the fluff of the Sisters (both in good and bad) and affect your vision of this faction?

Also, how far should those supernatural abilities goes? Could a Sister pulverise a Space Marine with a simple kick and slow down bullets or should it be something less flashy?

epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

Since you are of the opinion that Acts of Faith and some of the SoB abilities are of supernatural nature.

Would you tell me how you think this affect the fluff of the Sisters (both in good and bad) and affect your vision of this faction?

Also, how far should those supernatural abilities goes? Could a Sister pulverise a Space Marine with a simple kick and slow down bullets or should it be something less flashy?

I don't. In my headcanon, the SoB are simply excellently trained soldiers, who use that training together with faith, reputation and propaganda to appear to do miracles.

These miracles are not as consistent, however - it's not like 'we nuke Monoliths with heavy bolters once per battle' but rather 'we arrive just at the right time!' and similar. The one exception are the Living Saints, who are very holy Imperial psykers. Or something. You can't really explain what the hell Celestine is doing with anything other than space magic, really.

The SoB that we see on the tabletop have powers that I can't explain in any way other than magic. It's especially their consistency and predictability that does it - there is nothing consistent and predictable about realistic 'miracles.'

Alcibiades wrote:
The "the emperor is a warp entity created by belief" thing does not actually fit 40K pseudotheology.

Warp entities are not created by belief. They are created by emotions. Belief in something is not an emotion; not does emotion felt about about a particular entity fuel that entity should it ecist. If a trillion trillion people believe in Santa Claus, Santa will not start to exist. On the other hand, their incredible feeling of Christmas Spirit will fuel entities in the warp who likely bear no resemblance to Santa.

So, the residents of the Imperium all believing in the Emperor's godhood will in no way make him into a warp entity. It will have no effect on the warp at all, actually. Now, all the emotions (hope, fear, etc.) that they have attached to the Emperor _will_ have an effect on the warp, but they will not create a warp Emperor -- they will rather fuel whatever entities feed on/crystallize around such emotiions.

So.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact it is one of the main grimdark elements of the setting that all the hope and love that people feel in relation to the Emperor are in fact feeding Chaos.

"The Emperor is a warp entity" (sans belief) does exactly resemble the creation of independent daemon princes described in RoC LatD. Referring to belief is wrong, but the apotheosis itself has been very certain since the possibility appeared.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's still irrelevant as your weapon does not magically critically strike because you're faithful.

Unless it is actually magic.

Or, you know, willpower and skill.

We aren't going to agree on this. I believe that will and focus allow you to do rxceptional things; you believe space magic.

No, I believe that the will and focus of the SoB is nowhere near unique enough to grant them miracle-like benefits no one else gets.

There is absolutely nothing SoB could get due to willpower that Marines couldn't.

@Ashiraya

The practice of martial zen (or martial purity) fighting and training method is unique to SoB in the Imperium. Only Aspect Warriors also possess such training methods and they do gain incredible abilities out of them.

Space Marine training and fighting doctrine seems to rely heavily on the roman doctrine of et honor, et humanitas (honor and virility) to forge their mind into combat. This produce two very different combattants. They use «willpower», for lack of better word, in a very different manner with different result.

If Acts of Faith are non supernatural, almost all human could have access to them (including Space Marines), but only Sisters do, because only they practice martial purity from infancy to adulthood with rigor, intensity and faith. Just like almost everybody on Earth could learn how to treat an open wound, but only trained medical personnel can. The Space Marines inability to have Act of Faith has nothing to do with capacity, but to training.

Black Templars.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There is absolutely nothing SoB could get due to willpower that Marines couldn't.

Apparently, the marine are too busy using their willpower to ATSKNF, and they have therefore no more willpower left to act of faith.

You'll never convince Ashi, she's basically the CSM version of your Sisters of Bitter.

@Ashiraya

Black Templar are very faithfull, but are very, very far from practicing martial purity. In fact their religious practice is by far the most agressive amongst the forces of the Imperium which makes them incapable of reaching the state of clarity provided by the practice of martial purity. In fact, the Black Templar zealotry send them in a state of mind similar to the Norse sacred warriors: the famous berserkers (the Bear Skinned). They where known to be fearless, incredibly strong, bloodthirsty and immune to pain. I think this is very well represented by their Chapter tactics, stats and Space Marines abilities. They are, to me at least, the epidome of Space Marine philosophical combat doctrine.

eprovonost should be commending for mentioning martial purity four times on one page without once typo-ing 'marital purity'.

 pretre wrote:
Again, read your rulebook. Rending is specifically calls out as being a critical strike type thing.

Really adverse to Quotes in order to explain?

Rending
Some weapons can inflict critical strikes against which no armour can protect.

Rending, as many have said previously, is aiming your Heavy Bolter at the crew compartment and getting a head-shot on the Driver, rather than spraying the whole tank.

Sure, a Space Marine *could* and *should* be able to aim just as well, but i'm happy to call it the Lady's touch, rather than the Black Templars adequately described by epronovost =)
As Pretre has said, but with my own version:

Finesse = / = Zealotry.

epronovost wrote:
I find it interesting that most SoB outspoken players and fans consider Acts of Faith has a non-supernatural ability mostly based on their incredible training, willpower and perhaps even technologie. On the other end of the spectrum, those who think those powers are supernatural aren't SoB players and perhaps don't even like the faction.

I would like to hear what do you think your position on Acts of Faith bring in good or bad to the faction fluff.

When I started this thread, I wanted to have the opinion of people on the subject for a new pet project (I still got to finish my Losts and Damned Codex and two papers on the Sassanid Empire). While I never played SoB (and only own the Witch Hunter codex and not the new one), I would like to build my own army of Sisters and always liked their fluff and style. In that spirit, I would make my own Sister Codex (yet another one I know), but before that wanted to see what people think Acts of Faith should be.

I would recommend reading their Codex, fluff and would really recommend the Literature they have.
You can then make up your own mind as to how the acts of Faith are depicted there.

I mean the Codex description should already help:

The Adepta Sororitas can draw upon the wellspring of their faith and call upon the Emperor to guide their actions. So does absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allow the Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible upon the battlefield.
Yet miracles are not to be relied upon as a matter of course. At the heart of the Imperial Creed is the belief that the divine Emperor relies on his followers to create their own salvation, but also that if the situation is sufficiently bleak, he will intervene to deliver his true servants.

take what you want from that, but it sounds like "skill" and not "magic"