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Listen, at the end of the day we can argue morality all day - this is bad, this is good, blah blah. But at the end of the day it still will happen. People do not want to spend that much money on a good that they feel does not cost it - therefore will look to other vendors to sell it. In this case, yes it does infringe on IP laws, but you cannot shut down an entire business like this. I forgot who said it, but if there is a need for something, someone will supply.

If you want associate it with the drug trade. I remember in the 90's it was al about stop the drug trafficking, stop drug usage, so on and so forth. Now a days it is still being done, albeit probably more secretly, but done nonetheless. I will not sit on a high horse and say "you should never order from these sites" because I have done that as well. I wanted a titan, did not have the money at the time to buy a titan, so I got one off aliexpress. Do I still buy from forgeworld - absolutely, just like I buy every now and then from my LGS instead of of online. But your argument is very flawed, and sadly it can be also be translated into "you should never buy online, you should buy direct from GW to support them."

But again, white-knighting around will solve nothing. If people want, people will get - done, over with, it is that simple.

Bookwrack wrote:Price is A is irrelvant, because B, by its nature, is always going to be cheaper. You will never buy A.

Wrong.

B will only be around as long as it's profitable to recast A, sell it for half (or less) the price and ship it from China to the other end of the world.

If A were cheap enough, nobody would buy B, and thus demand for it wouldn't exist.

You will never, ever see recasts of GW's cheapest kits. Those boxes of 10 plastic infantry models for 21€.

Peregrine wrote:So now we get the "GW deserves it" argument? How about, if GW is so horrible that they deserve to be the victim of IP theft and recasting, you just stop buying GW products entirely? Stop buying recasts, stop playing GW games, and support a better company instead.

GW deserves it for multiple reasons, in fact after what they did in the whole Chapterhouse incident (and what they had planned to do if they had got away with that one) they deserve everything they may get.

But still, as me and others have explained countless times (while some of you blatantly refuse to listen) recasters can have their business rolling because GW actually allows them to do. They exist because GW's pricing policies have been so stupid they've created room in the market for profitable recasters. This is a global economy now, and you simply can't afford these kind of mistakes, specially when you operate in such a niche market.

fidel wrote:People do not want to spend that much money on a good that they feel does not cost it - therefore will look to other vendors to sell it. In this case, yes it does infringe on IP laws, but you cannot shut down an entire business like this. I forgot who said it, but if there is a need for something, someone will supply.

(...)

But your argument is very flawed, and sadly it can be also be translated into "you should never buy online, you should buy direct from GW to support them."

But again, white-knighting around will solve nothing. If people want, people will get - done, over with, it is that simple.

QFT. Knights gonna knight anyway.

fidel wrote:
But again, white-knighting around will solve nothing. If people want, people will get - done, over with, it is that simple.

At the end of the day I don't really care about GW, I simply would rather foster a community attitude that supports gaming by supporting the person who created the art by either agreeing to the terms they set or if you can't deal with that finding another artist that has more agreeable terms.

Buying from recasters does not support the hobby. Don't like what GW are charging and don't like their policies? Fine, buy from one of the plethora of other gaming companies. I have no problem with groups that genuinely produce their own models but rip off other peoples' ideas as that's genuine competition. A company that produces a "not Ragnar Blackmane" that is better than GW's is good for the hobby. But just pure copying isn't competition and isn't good for the hobby, it's leeching.

Of course I don't get my knickers in a twist if someone is going to buy recasts, it's a personal decision someone has to make, I'd just much rather the community as a whole had a mindset of supporting the hobby instead of the self entitled attitude of just getting what they want when they want at the price they want even if it's not from a good source. I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason Dakka has a rule against promoting or encouraging recasts, I'm sure partly because they don't want to get themselves in to legally ambiguous territory but also because they want to foster a community that supports the hobby.

I know it's a cultural thing, but personally I like the fact we live in a culture where an artist can make a living off their work without having to find a wealthy patron to support them, I'd rather it stayed that way.

fidel wrote:
. In this case, yes it does infringe on IP laws, but you cannot shut down an entire business like this. I forgot who said it, but if there is a need for something, someone will supply.

I will say that the above is completely correct. The Chinese culture does not put any value on IP. They simply don't believe that you can own an idea. My company has business in China and other Asian countries and we have to be VERY careful about what we share with whom. It sounds like paranoia to some, but when you can walk into a competitor's plant and see something newly installed that is a complete copy of something that you introduced into YOUR plant just a few months before after 3 years of development work and testing, you'll understand.

I will not go into the right or wrong. That's for you to decide.

 kronk wrote:

fidel wrote:
. In this case, yes it does infringe on IP laws, but you cannot shut down an entire business like this. I forgot who said it, but if there is a need for something, someone will supply.

I will say that the above is completely correct.

I wouldn't say it's completely correct. You can create laws and then enforce those laws with penalties that dissuade people from doing it. It's simply China does not enforce the laws (even though they do have them). Sure, you might still get some black marketers, but you can kill off a lot of the volume by having laws and penalties that are enforced.

I will not go into the right or wrong. That's for you to decide.

At the end of the day it's a cultural thing... personally I do not find the Chinese knock-off culture an appealing prospect, not just when it comes to miniatures but in general.

China will never enforce those laws.

Never.

Not unless there's some cultural changes, which can happen, I wouldn't be holding my breath though.

The question is, if something is regarded as morally bad in one nation, but perfectly acceptable in another, does that not indicate that it's not a completely clear cut black and white issue?

I'm of the opinion that IP laws are a good thing generally. But I am also of the opinion that they are far too extensive (Mickey Mouse anyone?). But I do not equate laws being a good idea/necessary with being morally right.

As with most such things, there's a certain amount of give and take, and the majority of people will do whatever they want so long as they can sleep at night.

 Ketara wrote:
The question is, if something is regarded as morally bad in one nation, but perfectly acceptable in another, does that not indicate that it's not a completely clear cut black and white issue?

No, it means we have yet to establish a system of laws and regulations that the entire globe has recognized as fair and balanced. A system whereby disagreements over property, resources, and the best style of Bar-B-Que are settled in giant arenas with men and women piloting 20 meter mechanical beasts. A golden age where this is no war. There is no hunger. There is no strife.

There is only...

 kronk wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The question is, if something is regarded as morally bad in one nation, but perfectly acceptable in another, does that not indicate that it's not a completely clear cut black and white issue?

No, it means we have yet to establish a system of laws and regulations that the entire globe has recognized as fair and balanced. A system whereby disagreements over property, resources, and the best style of Bar-B-Que are settled in giant arenas with men and women piloting 20 meter mechanical beasts. A golden age where this is no war. There is no hunger. There is no strife.

There is only...

HAHAHAHA - that made me laugh greatly thank you.

You are talking about a system that encompasses everyones cultures, institutions, and ideologies equally in a fair and balanced way - good luck. One reason feminism has such a hard time is globalization - a feminist from India has a much different idea on the rights of women than a woman from the United States - is it possible to have laws and regulations that encompass both - possibly (and most likely) never. The same is true about business; essentially, there is no system of laws that will incorporate everything in a fair and balanced way, and there never will be. Human beings live way to different lives for that ever to happen, but the problem also lies in our greed or desire. It has always been the way for humans that if there is a will there is a way.

If I have the desire for models at a cheaper price, someone will capatilize on that desire and produce them. The BEST historical example that comes to mind is prohibition. It was illegal to sell/have alchohol in an establishment - but did that stop anyone, not really.....


What people want, someone will provide, and you will get. This has been our universal law (now that being said there are always exterior forces stopping us - aka a person of color attempting to want equal pay/equal rights and someone passing a law saying it is illegal, but eventually people find a way to circumvent it to get what they want - in this case the civil rights movement )

EDIT: sorry if I came off pessimistic :(

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

At the end of the day it's a cultural thing... personally I do not find the Chinese knock-off culture an appealing prospect, not just when it comes to miniatures but in general.

I wonder if a line could be drawn between knock-offs and reproductions in this instance?

My background is in mobile (cell) phones mainly, and over the course of the dozen or so years I sold them, I saw more than a couple of handsets that people had purchased (off EBay mainly) which one could class as a knock off (ie, they were clearly going out of their way to ape the design of a popular handset of the time, Apple or Samsung typically.) These, when compared to the original, were undoubtedly inferior but still often represented good value in terms of what they were and the price paid.

Recasts are, it seems, a different case. People often cite the fact that the quality is equal to or better than original models, and this is for less cash.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Not unless there's some cultural changes, which can happen, I wouldn't be holding my breath though.

I once had it explained to me by someone who had lived in Asia for most of their life (although had been born in the states). To cut a longer explanation short, the way he described it was that all shapes, patterns, ideas exist in nature. At it's simplest, an artist looks at a wave breaking and makes a representation of it. This representation does not belong to the artist, but is something that nature has imprinted onto the perception and thoughts of the artist. While the artist can then represent things in different ways, their 'humours' and what lead them to do something in such a way are themselves are a result of other things happening around them. This then of course could be extrapolated to other forms of art and creativity, music, sculpture etc.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the people carrying out IP infringement go through this kind of thought process to justify it for themselves, but it's something that I think is engrained in culture and social norms; to put it finely, you don't just have a higher percentage of people breaking the law in China because they are morally repugnant, they genuinely believe there is no issue with it. And this is often what causes such conflict in the business and financial worlds where the two cultures have to try and interact with each other.

 Pacific wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Not unless there's some cultural changes, which can happen, I wouldn't be holding my breath though.

I once had it explained to me by someone who had lived in Asia for most of their life (although had been born in the states). To cut a longer explanation short, the way he described it was that all shapes, patterns, ideas exist in nature. At it's simplest, an artist looks at a wave breaking and makes a representation of it. This representation does not belong to the artist, but is something that nature has imprinted onto the perception and thoughts of the artist. While the artist can then represent things in different ways, their 'humours' and what lead them to do something in such a way are themselves are a result of other things happening around them. This then of course could be extrapolated to other forms of art and creativity, music, sculpture etc.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the people carrying out IP infringement go through this kind of thought process to justify it for themselves, but it's something that I think is engrained in culture and social norms; to put it finely, you don't just have a higher percentage of people breaking the law in China because they are morally repugnant, they genuinely believe there is no issue with it. And this is often what causes such conflict in the business and financial worlds where the two cultures have to try and interact with each other.

Ok - not going to lie that metaphor and/or explanation of their culture is an awesome explanation. Interesting imagery as well.

Anyone else notice this seller constantly takes stuff on and off

....

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Just a word of warning, China doesn't have as many safety regulations like most other countries; Your major concern should be, what is the materials to make these?; It could be something very toxic and make lead of years past look like nothing. Add on top of a guy working out of his garage using what he has on hand; Might end up in the hospital and loose a few fingers from a cheap miniature.

Or, by applying Occam's Razor, it could simply be resin. Resin is not expensive, there is little room for using some cheap, more toxic, alternative, plus it is poor business practice to kill your customers.

Frankly the whole "Chinese recasts will poison you" thing, and I'm not specifically attacking you, it is something that gets brought up every time this subject gets broached, more or less, smacks of a scare story trotted out by the uninformed and those with a vested interest.

Killing customers hasn't been a problem for some Chinese manufacturers of pet and baby foods, so I am not sure I can take your assurances at face value.

Having never cast with resin myself I am not educated on the process, including the materials used to mix resin, but is it so easy to dismiss concerns of material safety when discussing counterfeit goods produced in countries known to have a questionable safety record regarding materials introduced to consumer products?

Can resin be "cut" with other materials to extend the use of the batch or enhance it in other ways to make it more cost efficient? If so, I'd be skeptical that whatever a Chinese or Russian counterfeiter might use to make their illegal business more profitable was also safe for the consumer to bring into their home.

Azreal, you speak with certainty that fear of poisonous resins from China/Russia is a non-issue. Care to share your knowledge on why you think the safety of those materials are beyond questioning? I'd even open this question up to anyone else in the thread that is qualified to answer it. Concerns over toxic materials has kept me from purchasing non-counterfeit resin models Russia and China in the past so this is an area I'd like to learn more about.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Equal quality of forgeworld, no issues

Why does one Chinese seller, the expensive one, say the others use dodgy "cheap quality and toxic" resin that's inferior to Forgeworld, then?

Surely none of them would tell a lie, they're all honest people, unlike those from Nottingham!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Azreal, you speak with certainty that fear of poisonous resins from China/Russia is a non-issue. Care to share your knowledge on why you think the safety of those materials are beyond questioning? I'd even open this question up to anyone else in the thread that is qualified to answer it. Concerns over toxic materials has kept me from purchasing non-counterfeit resin models Russia and China in the past so this is an area I'd like to learn more about.

As we have a little daughter, we had our stock of FW stuff checked. Resin (or rather: in general, production quality) used had a lower quality than comparable GW models and toxicity levels were slightly higher, but still far from being actually toxic. Stuff checked were a Giant Squigg, Squigg Gobbla, Fire Elemental, Tomb Stalker, 6 Sentry Pylons and 2 Pylons. Bought from 2 different retailers.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
They are almost certainly knock offs, please don't link to things you believe are knock offs, we don't advocate piracy on dakka. You probably weren't advocating it either, just curious about it, but still. motyak

Most likely knock offs, but they look so legit and cheap. Take the chance?

Where's the link?

lliu wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
They are almost certainly knock offs, please don't link to things you believe are knock offs, we don't advocate piracy on dakka. You probably weren't advocating it either, just curious about it, but still. motyak

Most likely knock offs, but they look so legit and cheap. Take the chance?

Where's the link?

A mod edited the post and the link is no longer there.

Do the math

I have to wonder how much more toxic any resin can be used for miniatures. It's not as if any is healthy to breathe so safety precautions for one should cover the others. The general toxicity of resin seems overstated, there's often a thread started where people are concerned about a cancer risk. Wash your hands and don't breathe the dust, as you would with many chemicals.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
Equal quality of forgeworld, no issues

Why does one Chinese seller, the expensive one, say the others use dodgy "cheap quality and toxic" resin that's inferior to Forgeworld, then?

Surely none of them would tell a lie, they're all honest people, unlike those from Nottingham!

Pretty sure the guy you're thinking of is an ex-pat, so I'm gonna say good old murrikan marketing. His stuff is gorgeous, tho.

As always, offerings differ. I've seen resin that is on the level of Ramshacle Games (ie. ultra cheap, heavy, brittle) and resin that is undeniably better than FW (for modelling; I'm not making any claims about heath)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Anyone else notice this seller constantly takes stuff on and off

That's likely to avoid GW getting e-bay to shut him down.

Possible. Pretty smart.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


Azreal, you speak with certainty that fear of poisonous resins from China/Russia is a non-issue. Care to share your knowledge on why you think the safety of those materials are beyond questioning? I'd even open this question up to anyone else in the thread that is qualified to answer it. Concerns over toxic materials has kept me from purchasing non-counterfeit resin models Russia and China in the past so this is an area I'd like to learn more about.

As we have a little daughter, we had our stock of FW stuff checked. Resin (or rather: in general, production quality) used had a lower quality than comparable GW models and toxicity levels were slightly lower, but still far from being actually toxic. Stuff checked were a Giant Squigg, Squigg Gobbla, Fire Elemental, Tomb Stalker, 6 Sentry Pylons and 2 Pylons. Bought from 2 different retailers.

Excellent, thanks for the response.

So, the non-FW models sourced elsewhere had a lower toxicity level than comparable GW models? That is interesting and unexpected indeed!

Woops, no, that was typo on my part

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Just a word of warning, China doesn't have as many safety regulations like most other countries; Your major concern should be, what is the materials to make these?; It could be something very toxic and make lead of years past look like nothing. Add on top of a guy working out of his garage using what he has on hand; Might end up in the hospital and loose a few fingers from a cheap miniature.

Or, by applying Occam's Razor, it could simply be resin. Resin is not expensive, there is little room for using some cheap, more toxic, alternative, plus it is poor business practice to kill your customers.

Frankly the whole "Chinese recasts will poison you" thing, and I'm not specifically attacking you, it is something that gets brought up every time this subject gets broached, more or less, smacks of a scare story trotted out by the uninformed and those with a vested interest.

Killing customers hasn't been a problem for some Chinese manufacturers of pet and baby foods, so I am not sure I can take your assurances at face value.

I'm pretty sure nobody is eating their recasts.

Having never cast with resin myself I am not educated on the process, including the materials used to mix resin, but is it so easy to dismiss concerns of material safety when discussing counterfeit goods produced in countries known to have a questionable safety record regarding materials introduced to consumer products?

Can resin be "cut" with other materials to extend the use of the batch or enhance it in other ways to make it more cost efficient? If so, I'd be skeptical that whatever a Chinese or Russian counterfeiter might use to make their illegal business more profitable was also safe for the consumer to bring into their home.

Azreal, you speak with certainty that fear of poisonous resins from China/Russia is a non-issue. Care to share your knowledge on why you think the safety of those materials are beyond questioning? I'd even open this question up to anyone else in the thread that is qualified to answer it. Concerns over toxic materials has kept me from purchasing non-counterfeit resin models Russia and China in the past so this is an area I'd like to learn more about.

Let me turn it around, what, exactly, do you think would be significantly cheaper than resin, an already cheap material, to make it worth substituting that wouldn't compromise the properties of the material when it comes to casting?

This would also need to be a material that was sufficiently toxic, once trapped in cured resin, to be of danger simply by handling it and perhaps inhaling a small amount of dust (something which is inadvisable with resin whose provenance isn't in question.)

Like I said, Occam's Razor, the most likely explanation is that they're just using resin, because there's no obvious benefit to doing anything else. Oh, and all resin is toxic before it is cured, it is that chemical process that renders it inert, so there's no real point in worrying that they perhaps use different compounds.

At the end of the day, the best material to make resin models out of is resin.

I have worked in plastic packaging manufacturing business for the last 20+ years so I know a few things about plastics; I personally don't know to many of you and have no way of stopping someone from hurting themselves. But how many of us really wear safety glasses, dust masks, rubber gloves, etc every single time we work with our miniatures? I am not saying every single knock off miniature will hurt you, but extended exposure to some chemicals can cause liver and/or kidney damage. And I am surprised to hear someone tested the materials, because when we send anything out to private labs it usually costs a few hundred dollars, enough to buy a ton forge world stuff. So is getting cheap miniatures worth it?? That's not my call.. Its all about want and need. But if someone is already breaking the law by counterfeiting; do you think they are insuring the resin is cured properly or safe materials are used?

What we currently define as piracy is problematic.

As scanning and printing technology becomes cheaper (and 3D Printing has fallen in price MUCH faster than 3D scanning technology, which remains surprisingly expensive for decent resolution scanning) it will become essentially impossible to enforce copyright.

This doesn't mean that it will be any more right to do so than it was/is to record a song off the radio, or to take a photo of a work of art (there are already low quality 3D scanners that allow the assembly of a 3D mesh from a selection of photos) and then print a poster of it to hang on your wall.

We have this problem rapidly approaching us, and not just in the realm of crafts and hobbies.

Car manufacturers are going to begin having trouble selling new cars when people can have parts and new body styles simply printed out and attached to their cars by robotic workers.

And robots are replacing not just low-skilled labor, but degreed professionals (the first people being displaced by IBM's Watson are Lawyers and Doctors).

This leaves us with the problem of not just how artists are going to support themselves....

But how ANYONE who does not hold capital will support themselves.

People see this issue in a broad variety of lights, but regardless of ideology, it represents an eventual collapse of our current system.

Because if Capital Holders have no customers, then the economy will cease to exist.

That is the bottom line of what we are facing, or which Miniature Piracy is simply a symptom.

MB

A machine will never replace a doctor truly. First machines can't design experiments. And can't anticipate everything.
But at least my job is safe, I doubt Cps worker will be replaced by robots........hopefully.