Switch Theme:

If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Lion El'Jonson
II
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Jaghatai Khan
Leman Russ
Rogal Dorn
Konrad Kurze
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus
XI
Angron
Roboute Gilliman
Mortarian
Magnus the Red
Horus Lupercal
Lorgar Aurelian
Vulkan
Corvus Corax
Alpharius and Omegon
Even if the results would save quintillions of human lives, abortion is always wrong

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Massachusetts

 Pilau Rice wrote:
 Krellnus wrote:

But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?


Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.

Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.


But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




 Kerrathyr wrote:
Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.


More important than that - without Lorgar, there would have been no 'church of the emperor' on Colchis - which means that at the point the Emperor arrived, it would have been ruled by Kor Phaeron and the Old Faith, i.e. open worship of the Chaos Gods.

I'd imagine that would have been a pretty terminal experience for the entire planet.

Of course, the counter-argument is that if there wasn't a primarch there, the Emperor wouldn't have come in person, so you might just have had an 'ordinary' expeditionary fleet, who wouldn't know what chaos was....allowing Kor Phaeron et al to still infiltrate the imperium....but with much more difficulty getting into the legions.

If you accept the heresy is going to happen, getting rid of Magnus the Red is probably a tactically superior move for three reasons;
a) Without Magnus' message the Golden Throne isn't damaged, so it can be deactivated and the Emperor - and the Custodes - are not locked in the basement for the duration of the campaign.
b) Without Magnus, the Thousand Sons Legion is destroyed in the early crusade - so Nikea never happens. therefore:
b1) There is no need to prosecute Prospero and hence the Space Wolves are available earlier in the Heresy
b2) The Legion Librarius remain intact, which makes some legions likely to come out of Horus' opening gambits in a better state.


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

ImAGeek wrote:
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?


Depends on whether you subscribe to the whole 'the wolves are the executioners' thing (I'm of the opinion that if they were, that's just how they saw themselves/it was self appointed) but I could see it being as simple as the Wolves will do absolutely anything the Emperor ordered, and wouldn't hesitate to destroy another legion If they were ordered to.

I also happen to be of that opinion myself, although I don't get their undying loyalty thing, they're space wolves, not space hounds.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.

Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.

If I had to guess, maybe the emperor saw the wolves as an opportunity that presented itself to keep all the other legions/primarchs in check. By having the (at least seemingly) super duper loyal wolves destroy another legion/or legions, he sends a message to all the others that he won't feth around and will get right down to business, whilst simultaneously ensuring that the wolves disgusted every other legion enough that if they turned out to be not so loyal, the other legions would be more than eager to step up to the plate, regardless of any favour it curried with the emperor.

DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.

 
   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

 Orblivion wrote:


But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.


HOW DARE YOU AGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE!

Of course, Krellnus is right, i'm right, it's all hypothetical so we're all right. I was just putting forward a reason why cutting Russ out of the picture might not have been a good idea. Another Primarch might have taken up the mantle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 13:37:11


No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Illinois

 Pilau Rice wrote:
 Krellnus wrote:
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.


But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.

Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.

RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I am the only one who voted Sangunius?


If there is 1 vote and you voted for him, then yes, yes you are

Why did you vote for him?

I like Sangunius.

INSANE army lists still available!!!! Now being written in 8th edition format! I have Index Imperium 1, Index Imperium 2, Index Xenos 2, Codex Orks Codex Tyranids, Codex Blood Angels and Codex Space Marines!
PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
 Pilau Rice wrote:
 Krellnus wrote:
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.


But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.

Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.

RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I am the only one who voted Sangunius?


If there is 1 vote and you voted for him, then yes, yes you are

Why did you vote for him?

I like Sangunius.


So you'd kill him off because you like him..?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 13:37:44


 
   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I like Sangunius.


I think you might need to re read the first post again

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 13:41:06


No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

 ImAGeek wrote:
In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.

Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.

DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.

 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 Krellnus wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.

Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.

Been trying to find the exact quote and I can't so I'm hoping I didn't imagine it haha. Maybe someone else knows it..?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

I voted Fulgrim. Maybe I wanted the Heresy to happen?

Without Fulgrim, a number of key events would change and the tide would shift dramatically in the Imperium's favor.
   
Made in tw
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Caliban

 Shidank wrote:
I voted Fulgrim. Maybe I wanted the Heresy to happen?

Without Fulgrim, a number of key events would change and the tide would shift dramatically in the Imperium's favor.
Hmm, the Eldar did try to approach him to warn him about Chaos and it ended miserably with him virus bombing their maiden worlds. Not sure if they would have tried to approach someone more reasonable

Spoiler:
I like the utter shock Eldrad experiences when he realizes the humans aren't aware of Chaos

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.

The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.
   
Made in tw
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Caliban

 Shidank wrote:
Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.

The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.

Eldrad actually says he approached Fulgrim because he acted differently from the other humans they'd encountered in that he admired the maiden worlds without attempting to settle them. When asked why by Eldrad, Fulgrim says it was because they were too beautiful to spoil. (and then he virus bombs them )

And yea, Eldrad seriously misjudged them. And he didn't know about the magic blade!

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

Eight years does a lot to erode the memory of a Primarch meeting an a**hat Eldar.

I would have to think that since that meeting did little to actually help anything, this would reinforce the point that Fulgrim was a poisonous presence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 14:55:37


 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

I like Fulgrim, but the man made bad choices. His portrayal early in his novel was far better than any since, but we have what we have.

Without him, the EC would likely be on Terra or at least close. Manus wouldn't have lost his mind and Horus would have had a rival in the 'Master of War' department. Perturabo and his legion would not have been corrupted by their swim in a black hole in the Eye of Terror. Guilliman would still be correcting decimal points on import/export logs. Molech wouldn't have fallen.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm pretending to work at present.
   
Made in tw
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Caliban

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 15:10:31


And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




The oceans of the world

Can we abort the Emperor instead? Then there will be no Heresy
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 EngulfedObject wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.


Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

 ImAGeek wrote:
 EngulfedObject wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.


Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.


If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.

If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 15:21:07


 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 Shidank wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 EngulfedObject wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.


Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.


If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.

If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.


I liked First Heretic, you could argue that Lorgar turned a bit quick but you can actually see why he turns, whether you agree or not, and I like Angron after Betrayer, you can empathise a bit with him. But yeah, Horus' fall was very rushed, Fulgrim was... Yeah, Alpharius was weird and is still up in the air, we don't really know much about Mortarions (although there's a little bit about it in Scars, which I really liked), Curze was basically there anyway, I don't mind Perturabos, I can see why he fell, and Magnus you can see why too but he hasn't officially joined the traitors yet.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






I voted Sanguinious because then Horus might win.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 Shidank wrote:
Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.


Do you mean, as opposed to Angron and Curze who were so obvious, Perturabo could've been loyal had he been treated with the respect he deserved during the Great Crusade? Because if so I agree haha.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

Absolutely. Curze and Angron got the crap end of the stick, but Pert was a fairly well-developed character. His turn makes the least sense as a character, but the most sense given the contrived context.
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






I voted Alpharius.

The Heresy may have occurred without Horus and Lorgar, Chaos could use other Primarchs. However, it's thought that the Isstvan massacre was Alpharius' plan, which wrecked 3 Legions for the entirety of the Heresy (RG came back in small numbers near the end).

Though maybe Perturabo. Without Perturabo the Siege of Terra wouldn't have lasted very long.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Primarch II.

Mission accomplished.

   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

 ChazSexington wrote:

Though maybe Perturabo. Without Perturabo the Siege of Terra wouldn't have lasted very long.


The Dropsite Massacre might've gone down a bit differently as well, especially without all the big guns that Peturabo brings with him.

No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in fr
Wing Commander






Lorgar, though not for the same reasons others have stated.

Without him, the Heresy would no doubt have taken a different turn; sooner or later Chaos would force a reckoning with mankind, though without Lorgar the chances of that being via Horus are significantly reduced, it may have taken longer and relied more on the Daemonic/common human, but we can largely assume that the Big E's plan to keep everyone ignorant would have backfired somehow, sometime.

Instead, going with the question of changing history to favour of the Imperium, without Lorgar, there is no foundation for the Cult Imperialis.

No matter what happens otherwise, not having the Imperium turn into an insane theocracy in the Emperor's absence due to Lorgar and Co would be immensely benefiecial to the Imperium post-heresy. A civilization not dominated by extremely reactionary dogma could instead continue to innovate, develop and move forwards.

It would then mean I could have hover-Leman Russes. Suck it Tau!

Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: