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 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?

Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.

Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.

But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.

 Kerrathyr wrote:
Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.

More important than that - without Lorgar, there would have been no 'church of the emperor' on Colchis - which means that at the point the Emperor arrived, it would have been ruled by Kor Phaeron and the Old Faith, i.e. open worship of the Chaos Gods.

I'd imagine that would have been a pretty terminal experience for the entire planet.

Of course, the counter-argument is that if there wasn't a primarch there, the Emperor wouldn't have come in person, so you might just have had an 'ordinary' expeditionary fleet, who wouldn't know what chaos was....allowing Kor Phaeron et al to still infiltrate the imperium....but with much more difficulty getting into the legions.

If you accept the heresy is going to happen, getting rid of Magnus the Red is probably a tactically superior move for three reasons;
a) Without Magnus' message the Golden Throne isn't damaged, so it can be deactivated and the Emperor - and the Custodes - are not locked in the basement for the duration of the campaign.
b) Without Magnus, the Thousand Sons Legion is destroyed in the early crusade - so Nikea never happens. therefore:
b1) There is no need to prosecute Prospero and hence the Space Wolves are available earlier in the Heresy
b2) The Legion Librarius remain intact, which makes some legions likely to come out of Horus' opening gambits in a better state.

ImAGeek wrote:
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?

Depends on whether you subscribe to the whole 'the wolves are the executioners' thing (I'm of the opinion that if they were, that's just how they saw themselves/it was self appointed) but I could see it being as simple as the Wolves will do absolutely anything the Emperor ordered, and wouldn't hesitate to destroy another legion If they were ordered to.

 Orblivion wrote:


But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.

HOW DARE YOU AGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE!

Of course, Krellnus is right, i'm right, it's all hypothetical so we're all right. I was just putting forward a reason why cutting Russ out of the picture might not have been a good idea. Another Primarch might have taken up the mantle.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.

But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.

Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.

RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I am the only one who voted Sangunius?

If there is 1 vote and you voted for him, then yes, yes you are

Why did you vote for him?

I like Sangunius.

In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.

But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.

Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.

RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I am the only one who voted Sangunius?

If there is 1 vote and you voted for him, then yes, yes you are

Why did you vote for him?

I like Sangunius.

So you'd kill him off because you like him..?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I like Sangunius.

I think you might need to re read the first post again

 ImAGeek wrote:
In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.

Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.

 Krellnus wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.

Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.

Been trying to find the exact quote and I can't so I'm hoping I didn't imagine it haha. Maybe someone else knows it..?

I voted Fulgrim. Maybe I wanted the Heresy to happen?

Without Fulgrim, a number of key events would change and the tide would shift dramatically in the Imperium's favor.

 Shidank wrote:
I voted Fulgrim. Maybe I wanted the Heresy to happen?

Without Fulgrim, a number of key events would change and the tide would shift dramatically in the Imperium's favor.

Hmm, the Eldar did try to approach him to warn him about Chaos and it ended miserably with him virus bombing their maiden worlds. Not sure if they would have tried to approach someone more reasonable

Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.

The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.

 Shidank wrote:
Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.

The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.

Eldrad actually says he approached Fulgrim because he acted differently from the other humans they'd encountered in that he admired the maiden worlds without attempting to settle them. When asked why by Eldrad, Fulgrim says it was because they were too beautiful to spoil. (and then he virus bombs them )

And yea, Eldrad seriously misjudged them. And he didn't know about the magic blade!

Eight years does a lot to erode the memory of a Primarch meeting an a**hat Eldar.

I would have to think that since that meeting did little to actually help anything, this would reinforce the point that Fulgrim was a poisonous presence.

To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

I like Fulgrim, but the man made bad choices. His portrayal early in his novel was far better than any since, but we have what we have.

Without him, the EC would likely be on Terra or at least close. Manus wouldn't have lost his mind and Horus would have had a rival in the 'Master of War' department. Perturabo and his legion would not have been corrupted by their swim in a black hole in the Eye of Terror. Guilliman would still be correcting decimal points on import/export logs. Molech wouldn't have fallen.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm pretending to work at present.

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.

Can we abort the Emperor instead? Then there will be no Heresy

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.

Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.

Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.

If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.

If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.

Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.

Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.

Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.

Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.

If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.

If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.

I liked First Heretic, you could argue that Lorgar turned a bit quick but you can actually see why he turns, whether you agree or not, and I like Angron after Betrayer, you can empathise a bit with him. But yeah, Horus' fall was very rushed, Fulgrim was... Yeah, Alpharius was weird and is still up in the air, we don't really know much about Mortarions (although there's a little bit about it in Scars, which I really liked), Curze was basically there anyway, I don't mind Perturabos, I can see why he fell, and Magnus you can see why too but he hasn't officially joined the traitors yet.

Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.

I voted Sanguinious because then Horus might win.

 Shidank wrote:
Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.

Do you mean, as opposed to Angron and Curze who were so obvious, Perturabo could've been loyal had he been treated with the respect he deserved during the Great Crusade? Because if so I agree haha.

Absolutely. Curze and Angron got the crap end of the stick, but Pert was a fairly well-developed character. His turn makes the least sense as a character, but the most sense given the contrived context.

I voted Alpharius.

The Heresy may have occurred without Horus and Lorgar, Chaos could use other Primarchs. However, it's thought that the Isstvan massacre was Alpharius' plan, which wrecked 3 Legions for the entirety of the Heresy (RG came back in small numbers near the end).

Though maybe Perturabo. Without Perturabo the Siege of Terra wouldn't have lasted very long.

I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.

Primarch II.

Mission accomplished.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Though maybe Perturabo. Without Perturabo the Siege of Terra wouldn't have lasted very long.

The Dropsite Massacre might've gone down a bit differently as well, especially without all the big guns that Peturabo brings with him.

Lorgar, though not for the same reasons others have stated.

Without him, the Heresy would no doubt have taken a different turn; sooner or later Chaos would force a reckoning with mankind, though without Lorgar the chances of that being via Horus are significantly reduced, it may have taken longer and relied more on the Daemonic/common human, but we can largely assume that the Big E's plan to keep everyone ignorant would have backfired somehow, sometime.

Instead, going with the question of changing history to favour of the Imperium, without Lorgar, there is no foundation for the Cult Imperialis.

No matter what happens otherwise, not having the Imperium turn into an insane theocracy in the Emperor's absence due to Lorgar and Co would be immensely benefiecial to the Imperium post-heresy. A civilization not dominated by extremely reactionary dogma could instead continue to innovate, develop and move forwards.

It would then mean I could have hover-Leman Russes. Suck it Tau!