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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Lion El'Jonson
II
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Jaghatai Khan
Leman Russ
Rogal Dorn
Konrad Kurze
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus
XI
Angron
Roboute Gilliman
Mortarian
Magnus the Red
Horus Lupercal
Lorgar Aurelian
Vulkan
Corvus Corax
Alpharius and Omegon
Even if the results would save quintillions of human lives, abortion is always wrong

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Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Pyeatt wrote:
I voted XI just for fun.

But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.

Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.


Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.

Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.

Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.


I don't think the others you suggested would've reacted like Lorgar did if they were rebuked though. Lorgar needed faith, that's why when the object of his faith rebuked him like that, he immediately went looking for something else to believe in. Magnus, Curze and Angron wouldn't have worshipped the Emperor to start with, let alone then felt the need to search out the Chaos gods.
   
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Abortion is, and always will be, absolutely certainly wrong

Unless its Lorgar, to hell with that short-sighted zealot

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 ImAGeek wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Pyeatt wrote:
I voted XI just for fun.

But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.

Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.


Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.

Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.

Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.


I don't think the others you suggested would've reacted like Lorgar did if they were rebuked though. Lorgar needed faith, that's why when the object of his faith rebuked him like that, he immediately went looking for something else to believe in. Magnus, Curze and Angron wouldn't have worshipped the Emperor to start with, let alone then felt the need to search out the Chaos gods.


It is hinted that Curze was already being influenced by Chaos when the massacre at Istvaan III happened. He'd already started to hate the Emperor by this point. It's a very short jump from where he was when the Heresy broke out to where Lorgar was when he turned.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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Lorgar actively sought out Chaos, and then worked to turn other Primarchs. I can't see Curze doing either of those things.
   
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AL

This got me thinking. What if a radical inquisitor or whatnot, came to the conclusion that the best thing for humanity was if none of the primarchs lived? Then went back in time with a void bomb but instead of killing the primarchs, the void bomb sucked them into the warp from which the chaos gods delightfully flung them hither and thither thus setting off the chain of events that would lead to the Heresy?

Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.

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Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.

Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.

Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.


Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice. Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated. Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword. Angron was going crazy... i mean, most of the heretics seem to fall into place on their own. All that was missing was a knowledge of Chaos- something that could have come from elsewhere.

Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?


Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.

The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.

It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 07:59:05


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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AL

 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.

Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.


Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice. Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated. Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword. Angron was going crazy... i mean, most of the heretics seem to fall into place on their own. All that was missing was a knowledge of Chaos- something that could have come from elsewhere.

Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?


Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.

The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-ion-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.

It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.


Captain Harlock just popped into mind...

Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.

"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB 
   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.


And their ship will be called Cheraut.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
You are an assassin of the Officio Assassinorum. By a miracle of technology, you have been teleported back in time and through space, and you are in the laboratory the Emperor is using to gestate the Primarchs. You have none of your gear, but all of your forum, RL knowledge of the Horus Heresy and within moments, you will be killed by the automated defenses of the lab. You have time to terminate the life support of exactly ONE Primarch tank before you are blown to atoms. For the might of the Imperium, which do you choose?


So the imperium kills me

Sanginius I spite you! I spite on you!

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 EmpNortonII wrote:
Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.

The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.

It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.


So...when would be the chapter about a pretty little bonnet and Ms.Curze...? Will there also be a graphic novel where everything gets real as they unravel the dark truth of the Imperium which may lead to the deaths of some major characters while another of the main cast unlocks crazy skills and a long awaited romance finally blossoms?


Also regarding the topic: I'm with everyone on Lorgar. His home world gets purged. One less temptation from chaos. Fulgrim will probably go nuts eventually along Angron & some of the other obvious traitors except this time Horus isn't corrupted and is actually on the Imperium's side. The decree of Nekia(spelt it wrong) is done but Magnus & his Sons are actually brought in by the Wolves instead of fought since really the only real reason the fighting took place was because Horus(whom at the time Russ didn't know had turned traitor) wouldn't have told Russ that the order was changed to an extermination one instead of the arrest. What happens after that is anyone's guess really but is still all according to Tszeech's plan because "My pwan iz so gwait!" which by the wait read that in Mandark from Dexter's Lab's voice, so really who knows. Space Wolves are at Terra, the siege of Terra probably won't go over too well if at all, Rob doesn't have to deal with Word Bearers and only has to deal with World Eaters really. Drop Se Massacre was a plan by Horus but could be devised by Alpha but would have been more complex and all that fun jazz. All in all Chaos would have their normal traitors just they wouldn't have Horus and his sons which means no Abbadon but hey Abby could turn traitor later if not during. Who knows really in that regard. The traitors probably would have taken a different overall tactic to their respected rebellions. Probably not full blown war with Terra but more of what we see currently in 40K. Ferrus' fate is arguable about everything because he may or may not go traitors because of Fulgrim. I mean I don't really peg Ferrus as the traitorous type.

Also I really don't think things would have it be as Chaos always wins and gets what they want. Sorry but gods or not when you're that cocky about things...You're gonna mess up. Especially if you underestimate humans, Primarchs & space marines or not. Big E would have been able to safe guard his sons and probably address a lot more issues and resolved things with Magnus who probably, as atonement, would have had him and his sons power the Golden Throne since he and his sons wouldn't have had to fight the Space Wolves. Though hey during the trip maybe Magnus & Russ could have found some common ground to bond, who knows really. The biggest governing factor in addition to all this is the fact Horus & Rob would be working on the same side the Imperium would have been in amazing shape, more clear heads all around along with allowing Big E to work on the Golden Throne & the human web way portal but also bringing the Grey Knights into existence sooner rather then later since he wouldn't have needed to make them hide and lay dormant until the Heresy was over. So really taking out that Prophet Lorgar would result in far more benefits and good. Because anyone else...would just hinder things slightly not only during the Heresy but post heresy as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/15 13:40:14


"We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope."

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 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.

Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.


Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice.
Debatable.

Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated.
Without Erebus?

Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword.
One guy.

Angron was going crazy
Who's going to follow Angron?

Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Who's going to follow Curze?

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:

Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated.
Without Erebus?

]Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Who's going to follow Curze?


Curze is rebuked by the Emperor. Kurze, pissed off over the hypocrisy of the Emperor, gets the same treatment the Raven Guard gave to the Sharks, and is sent into the outer night to kill xenos. Curze finds out about Chaos and comes back to steal the same knife, jabs Horus (or Sanguinius, or Rowboat, any of the three would have had spectacular results for different reasons) who gets "healed" and Heresy repeats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 16:18:49


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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What do *you* think was going to happen to Curze when he went to Terra to see the Emperor?

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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The Beach

How is that relevant?

I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".

I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.

The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Lorgar, without Lorgar no Erebus, no intervention that spread the primarchs, no crazy Angron, no crazy Kurze, no moody Mortarion , just one big happy bunch and probably the 2th and 11th primarch would be alive.
Magnus on the throne, Empi and Hori going through the warp slaughtering all alien life and then the Necron Heresy starts with all eldar exterminated or passed into unknown parts, even the Empi doesn't know how to activate the ancient weapons left behind to fight the necrons, also depleted from a costly war against the Necrons, the Tyranid invasion hits fully as the orks that delayed the tyranid invasion in the current timeline are all dead.

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Voted for II, who knows how that would have affected history.

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 Happyjew wrote:
I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.

I voted for Dorn as well. He's a totally redundant ass-kisser with no tactical or strategic sense - worthless.

   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.

Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.


I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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 Lord Blackscale wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.

I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.


The Night Lords can despise chaos all they want, but it will not change the fact that the gratest concentration of Night Lords at the time of 40K swear fealty to Krieg Acerbus, a powerfull NL daemon prince.
NL are just as "tainted" as the other traitor legions.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Krieg_Acerbus


 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
How is that relevant?

I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".

I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.

The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.


Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
How is that relevant?

I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".

I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.

The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.


Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.


No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.
   
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Not at all.

But I respect your right to have that opinion, no matter how unsupported it happens to be.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 ImAGeek wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
How is that relevant?

I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".

I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.

The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.


Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.


No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.


Gulliman has a lot of faith in the Emperor, to a point where he actually belives the primarchs being scattered was intentional

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 Redcruisair wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.

I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.


The Night Lords can despise chaos all they want, but it will not change the fact that the gratest concentration of Night Lords at the time of 40K swear fealty to Krieg Acerbus, a powerfull NL daemon prince.
NL are just as "tainted" as the other traitor legions.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Krieg_Acerbus



FINALLY, somebody else notices that the Night Lords are about as non-chaotic as the Iron Warriors. The only difference between the Night Lords and the rest of the Legions is that the Night Lords don't really worship the Chaos Gods, and instead take the Black Legion route.

But Night Lords were corrupted even during their Horus Heresy. Their palace was made of living humans stitched together Dark Eldar style, sustained through some combination of technology and chaos magicks. Plus then there's the Raptor Cults, which eventually mutate into actual daemons (Warp Talons).

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Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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BrianDavion wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
How is that relevant?

I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".

I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.

The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.


Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.


No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.


Gulliman has a lot of faith in the Emperor, to a point where he actually belives the primarchs being scattered was intentional


All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.

For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:

- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.
   
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Lorgar. Literally everything that went wrong now no longer happens.

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LordBlades wrote:
All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.

For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:

- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.

Oooh, that would actually be really interesting to see! It's too bad that most of traitor Primarchs were too corruptible or were already messed up before being exposed to Chaos, it makes the whole thing much less tragic and interesting (Fulgrim, Angron, and Curze, unlike Magnus and Lorgar, whose falls are more tragic and gradual)

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
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LordBlades wrote:

All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.

For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:

- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.

Guilliman probably would have been less believing of what Erebus (or whoever) was saying. I mean no proof is actually provided.

"What I am showing you is the future!"
"How do I know you're telling the truth?"
"Because I, a Space Marine from one of the least respected Legions, am more trustworthy than your creator who you view as a father!

Doesn't Magnus even contradict Erebus? Who would you trust more? Your brother or some random Marine from another Legion? Besides that, Guilliman would be far more likely to talk to the Emperor (or other Primarchs) about it before tearing the Imperium apart in a civil war. The manner in which Horus was corrupted doesn't make much sense.


If time-travel is possible then the future is presumably pre-destined. I.e. if you go back in time and do nothing events will unfold in exactly the same way as before. So I could possibly justify killing Lorgar (which would probably have had the greatest effect on preventing a widespread Heresy).
   
 
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