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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Lion El'Jonson
II
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Jaghatai Khan
Leman Russ
Rogal Dorn
Konrad Kurze
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus
XI
Angron
Roboute Gilliman
Mortarian
Magnus the Red
Horus Lupercal
Lorgar Aurelian
Vulkan
Corvus Corax
Alpharius and Omegon
Even if the results would save quintillions of human lives, abortion is always wrong

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BrianDavion wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
person67 wrote:
Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman


Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?

I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.


mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.


yeah Codex astartes is the reason for hate. honestly the only primarch I would choose would be logar
   
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Id vote russ, just to make all the team Jacob mad

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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The Lion. Just because I REALLY enjoy DA players whining.

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So, here's my thought on the matter.

The danger from Chaos to the Primarchs comes mostly from them knowing so little about it. Two of the three individuals most commonly selected (Magnus and Lorgar) were selected because of actions they might not have made if they knew what was going on. Unfortunately, since the Emperor was one that was concealing that knowledge, I don't think that stopping the Heresy from happening would have been what made the difference. Another Primarch could have fallen- Magnus being an excellent first candidate, if his sorcerous experiments after Nikea were discovered. I don't think finishing the Golden Throne would have stopped it, either. Post-fall, the Webway could be invaded by daemons anyway.

I also think another leader for the Heresy would have risen without Horus.

As such, I think the goal isn't to prevent the Heresy, but to make it as one-sided as possible. As such, the tank I'd kill would contain the twins, Alpharius and Omegon. Why?

1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)

2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.

3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V

If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.

4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 22:59:12


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

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In the warp, searching for Marbo

I voted XI because he The author of this post has been taken in for Inquisitorial questioning.

After all these years of searching for Marbo...he found me. Heretics beware! He's back! 
   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
So, here's my thought on the matter.

The danger from Chaos to the Primarchs comes mostly from them knowing so little about it. Two of the three individuals most commonly selected (Magnus and Lorgar) were selected because of actions they might not have made if they knew what was going on. Unfortunately, since the Emperor was one that was concealing that knowledge, I don't think that stopping the Heresy from happening would have been what made the difference. Another Primarch could have fallen- Magnus being an excellent first candidate, if his sorcerous experiments after Nikea were discovered. I don't think finishing the Golden Throne would have stopped it, either. Post-fall, the Webway could be invaded by daemons anyway.

I also think another leader for the Heresy would have risen without Horus.

As such, I think the goal isn't to prevent the Heresy, but to make it as one-sided as possible. As such, the tank I'd kill would contain the twins, Alpharius and Omegon. Why?

1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)

2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.

3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V

If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.

4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.


I like your thinking. Exalted!

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 ImAGeek wrote:
Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
Yea, I went off on a bit of rant there

But yea, I just felt no connection or sense of tragedy at all. I'm excited about The First Heretic. Lorgar's fall always made the most sense and at least they know what it really means to turn to Chaos. It's a concious decision, unlike with almost every other legion and Primarch out there.

And yea, aborting the Twins would make sense but I think the Dropsite Massacre would still have been a success. The loyalists were completely outnumbered.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/12 01:54:20


And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
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As much as the Horus Heresy was largely caused/ could be prevented without Lorgar or Horus. I personally would go for either Konrad Kurze or Fulgrim.
Without Konrad Lorgar would have most likely died in the Dropsite Masacre at the hands of Corvus because Konrad wouldn't have been able to intervene, also he wouldn't have captured and tortured Vulkan so Vulkan wouldn't go bat crap crazy and have to be put down (pun intended).

On the other hand without Fulgrim Ferrus Mans would still be alive along with Roboute Gulliman (do I really want this though... Idk?)

Overall I vote Konrad.
Without him the loyalists would have one more primarch and the traitors would be down their guide into the world that is chaos and have a hard time gaining any real momentum early in the war.
Not to mention the planet he lived on which had an insane ammount of raw adamantium might have been better brought into the imperial fold making better use of its supplies instead of staying a corrupt piece of crap like it did. Basically since it wouldn't be a recruiting world, odds are it would have been more effectively cleansed of the immoral populace it housed.

In all this I forgot to mention that he wouldn't have been distracting the crap out of the Dark Angels who would have gotten to Terra on time and made it possible for the Loyalists to mop the floor with the Traitors

On another nother side note Konrad kind of invented exterminatus so if you are against the whole abortion thing then I can't see what's worse than aborting an entire planet.

At this I end my rant

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/12 03:18:51


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The oceans of the world

Huh interesting rant, I never thought about who would be dead and alive if either of those two died
   
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 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
As much as the Horus Heresy was largely caused/ could be prevented without Lorgar or Horus. I personally would go for either Konrad Kurze or Fulgrim.
Without Konrad Lorgar would have most likely died in the Dropsite Masacre at the hands of Corvus because Konrad wouldn't have been able to intervene, also he wouldn't have captured and tortured Vulkan so Vulkan wouldn't go bat crap crazy and have to be put down (pun intended).

On the other hand without Fulgrim Ferrus Mans would still be alive along with Roboute Gulliman (do I really want this though... Idk?)

Overall I vote Konrad.
Without him the loyalists would have one more primarch and the traitors would be down their guide into the world that is chaos and have a hard time gaining any real momentum early in the war.
Not to mention the planet he lived on which had an insane ammount of raw adamantium might have been better brought into the imperial fold making better use of its supplies instead of staying a corrupt piece of crap like it did. Basically since it wouldn't be a recruiting world, odds are it would have been more effectively cleansed of the immoral populace it housed.

In all this I forgot to mention that he wouldn't have been distracting the crap out of the Dark Angels who would have gotten to Terra on time and made it possible for the Loyalists to mop the floor with the Traitors

On another nother side note Konrad kind of invented exterminatus so if you are against the whole abortion thing then I can't see what's worse than aborting an entire planet.

At this I end my rant


The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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Caliban

 Wyzilla wrote:
The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.
From Nostromo, no?

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
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 EngulfedObject wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.
From Nostromo, no?


It's not my fault they both start with 'n's.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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 Wyzilla wrote:
It's not my fault they both start with 'n's.
I was just teasing, it's your favorite legion after all!

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
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The Beach

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder if if it was Veteran Sargent who voted for Alpharius.
It would benefit the story because Alpharius's fluff is the worst in 40K, but that's not the question being asked.

I voted Lorgar, which is the obvious and most likely choice.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Well my 2 cents is Sang(assume they were in same pod). I'm basing this more off the star child prophecy.

The legions that all went chaos in theory have "replacements" to keep them all balanced. I kill Lorgar and maybe the heresy is later but Typhus was already pledged to nurgle. He probably could've replaced Erabus (spelling?). Theirs is Horus the master of assault but I kill him maybe Perturabo take the mantle of chaos and leads the attack. Does it work as well. Probably not. The "main" issue horus caused was jealously among everyone. I think the Emperor still has a "favored" son and he is chosen. Magnus is the other big player on chaos to kill. Honestly killing him can range from minimum effect to honestly changing everything. Maybe no golden throne at all. My assumption though is that all the same however Horus gets smashed because space wolves don't get stuck with killing them and fight at Terra. Everyone else is completely replaceable.
Now killing the good guys. Guillman means that there is no "large" legion so World Eaters and Word Bearers at Terra. Horus never lowers the shields. Dorn is self explanatory. Dorn dead emperor doesn't even get the chance to kill Horus because the seige of Terra takes maybe 5 minutes. Dorn literally saved Terra. Russ forced Mangus hand to go chaos but i think he still turns. Khan, El'jonson, Ferrus, Corax, Vulkan.

Now why I think Sang. If he dies 2 possible prophecies could kick into effect. The first that I don't think happens in the cabal prophecy were horus so devastated kills everything in the universe so the warp loses all its power.
The second one I think is more relevant is the star child prophecy. Aka Big E becomes a god in the warp and pushes back the chaos gods.

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 Pilau Rice wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 Rippy wrote:

If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.


Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.


Correctamundo


Without Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would have been two random zealots brutally slain by the Emperor's Heralds when the legion made planetfall on a non-compliant Colchis. Everything that defines the Word Bearers as we know them would have been wiped away by Imperial Iterators or brutally dismembered by the 17th Legion.
   
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 EmpNortonII wrote:
So, here's my thought on the matter.
...
1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)

2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.

3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V

If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.

4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.

Imo the Drop Site Massacre is influenced by Horus first and foremost - it has some elements that the Alpha Legion are known for - notably the complex multi stage approach it took to destroying the Loyalist Legions but it doesn't have any of the infiltration tactics they usually used. The Drop Site Massacre was complex, but only as complex as it needed to be. More than anything it was bold and designed to be a decisive strike, at its core it has a very simple concept - apply overwhelming force and destroy the command structure of the enemy to remove their ability to function and crush morale. This is Horus through and through, he is a master of grand strategy but generally favoured very direct 'cut off the head' type tactics when he was personally involved.

I think Lorgar is the best choice here but it is very hard to know. I definitely don't think removing Horus from the equation would have a major impact - that would mean that Russ is the first Primarch to be found and possibly improved his status with the Emperor but his personality and in particular his loyalty and sense of duty would still be the deciding factor in that relationship (i.e. I don't think Russ becomes Horus, he would still be the Executioner who takes the dirty jobs does whatever it takes to get them done). It could lead to an interesting scenario where he becomes the Warmaster (which I actually think he would be great at because there is no way he flips to Chaos), but more likely I think Sanguinius would get it. That would imo lead to a far worse Heresy because Sanguinius was probably stronger than Horus, was still widely (if not more widely) liked but had a much deeper 'dark side' and had further to fall. I actually think the Emperor recognised this, he picked Horus to make sure Sanguinius didn't get loaded with more pressure and made sure the Warmaster was a more grounded 'human' figure. Even moreso than any of this other brothers Sanguinius was clearly an angelic superhuman (an not just because of his wings) and I think he was worried about the divide that might cause between Astartes and regular humans.

Really I think the desired outcome here (assuming you are going for 'good side' win) is to kill whoever sets back the Emperor's work the most and/or reduces his trust in his sons - with the goal being that the Emperor reveals the existence of Chaos to the Primarchs and manages to progress past the 'unify humanity' stage of his plans and gets to the 'deal with Chaos' part that was almost certainly coming next (with the Webway projects etc). If that happens then Fulgrim doesn't fall, Magnus understands the boundaries and Alpharius doesn't jump in with the Cabal because he already knows about their end game. This means primarchs who had a larger degree of personal interaction with him so I feel Horus (first/favoured son, maybe Russ would have inspired more confidence and trust with the Emperor if he was found first?), Lorgar (ethos was the direct opposite of what the Emperor was trying to build, also brought Erebus into the mix and he would almost certainly have been dead if Lorgar didn't unite Colchis before the Imperium showed up) or possibly Magnus (pushed the boundaries the most) are the best choices imo.
   
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Yeah, most of that was wishful thinking. There's no tie to the Alpha Legion and the planning and execution of Istvaan V. Heck, if anything, it's actually a pretty simple strategy based entirely on treachery. I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.

The only thing that makes it potentially Alpharius's brainchild is that it was executed inefficiently by allowing the first wave of loyalists to fully engage with the five known traitors, thus needlessly costing them extra casualties. An attack on the loyal legions as they struck would sow confusion and... chaos, and leave them sitting ducks for the combined firepower of both sets of traitors. But, then again, Guilliman had correctly identified Alpharius's penchant for poor battle planning, so maybe she is on to something after all.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
 Pilau Rice wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 Rippy wrote:

If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.


Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.


Correctamundo


Without Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would have been two random zealots brutally slain by the Emperor's Heralds when the legion made planetfall on a non-compliant Colchis. Everything that defines the Word Bearers as we know them would have been wiped away by Imperial Iterators or brutally dismembered by the 17th Legion.


Which wasn't what we were discussing.

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I voted XI just for fun.

But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.

Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.


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 EmpNortonII wrote:
the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors.


I voted Russ because of fantasies like this one.

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The important thing is that without Lorgoar, and by extention Erubus and Kol Phaerun, Horus would not have fallen. Without Horus the traitors, if there were any, would be fragmented and uncoordinated. I am not sure that Motorian or Curze would have fallen without Horus. Curze could have gotten help from Sangunius or Magnus with his visons. Mortorian I don't know enough ebout to be sure.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.


Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?

No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
   
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 EngulfedObject wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.

I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?

I hate it when this comes up. I understand that it was like a week ago, but still. Rowboat Girlyman was hit by at least three dozen torso shots from explosive bolts, and he was stuck TWICE in the head. AND AND AND he was stabbed in the back by a Gladius that went all the way in up to the hilt. It's a testament to his toughness and strength, not his weakness.

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 Tactical_Spam wrote:
There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.

We must all join the Kroot-startes... 
   
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LordBlades wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.


Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?

No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.


The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy, they created the warpstorm around Ultramar, and they purged the legion of the legionnaires who were just focussed on petty revenge. They also could've easily killed Guilliman but Kor Phaeron is an absolute idiot and tried to turn him instead. The only real failure of theirs is the whole Furious Abyss debacle.
   
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 dusara217 wrote:
Spoiler:
 EngulfedObject wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.

I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?

I hate it when this comes up. I understand that it was like a week ago, but still. Rowboat Girlyman was hit by at least three dozen torso shots from explosive bolts, and he was stuck TWICE in the head. AND AND AND he was stabbed in the back by a Gladius that went all the way in up to the hilt. It's a testament to his toughness and strength, not his weakness.

We had an entire thread about how tough Primarchs are and the Guilliman discussion went on for several pages. Why didn't you bring up then? And alright, maybe he was really tough. That wasn't really my point though. I was asking if there was any fluff indicating that Horus was physically inferior to the Primarchs listed.

And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.

I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.

My hands. They, too, are golden.
 
   
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LordBlades wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.


Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?

No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
Yes, but that's their place in the story. If they were competent, they'd never have fallen to Chaos.

Lorgar wanted, more than anything, validation and love from his father. He became insanely jealous of his brothers who were more successful, militarily, than him, like Guilliman. He knew he was the least strategically minded of his brothers, and knew his father values martial virtues over all others. The rejection at Monarchia destroyed Lorgar. While he rationalized his quest as looking for answers, what Lorgar actually wanted was validation. The one thing he loved more than anything rejected him, so he went searching for someone who would value him. Which, of course, led him to Chaos. Lorgar was so desperate for validation that he trusted a greater daemon who told him that he would tell him one lie for every truth, and Lorgar took everything at face value, lol.

The Word Bearers are as much a parable of the dangers of organized religion as the Ecclesiarchy is. The Ecclesiarchy just represents the grimdark version of the Institution, and Word Bearers the grimdark version of the Faithful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.


Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?

No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.


The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy,

Calth was a success in some senses, but not a Word Bearers success by any means. They were pawns that Horus sacrificed. The Word Bearers were his least valuable troops, so he expended them to do as much damage to the Ultramarines as possible. Horus had no intention of getting back any of the Word Bearers he sent to Calth. He expected them all to die. And, well, they did, lol.

To be fair, the Black Library's version of Horus's strategy makes about as much sense as you could expect from a bunch of writers who don't know much about military strategy, but I guess that's neither here nor there. In the older versions of the story, Horus went straight to Terra, taking advantage of the surprise and confusion after Istvaan V. He had 8 Legions, and the Loyalists had 6, only 3 of which could make it to Terra in time to oppose him. His forces were also depleted (having had to kill off their own loyalists), making speed all that much more important. He sacrificed the Word Bearers to slow down the Ultramarines, and already depleted the Space Wolves by throwing them in a frontal assault on Prospero. So really, Horus was taking maybe 5 Legions worth of Marines to Terra to fight three Legions who were entrenched in one of the most heavily defended targets possible. This is why I kinda laugh when people who don't really grasp the scope of the Heresy think there are still a ton of Traitor Marines from the Heresy kicking around in 40K. The Traitor Legions fought three consecutive huge battles, first against themselves, then in an assault on a defended position, and finally were chased across the galaxy in a disorganized rout (which is where the most casualties tend to occur in battles). There's a reason in the fluff the Loyal Legions didn't get divvied up very many times. Most of them were dead. And they won. Why people think that the same, and worse, wasn't true of the Traitors is just apparently a willful suspension of disblief, heh.

Though now, nobody could honestly give me a coherent picture of what Horus's strategy is, other than to apparently send his armies all across the galaxy doing Chaos Gods knows what and allowing the Loyalists to regroup, accomplishing some objectives of questionable value, then eventually going to Terra. Why are the Blood Angels on the other side of the galaxy at Macragge and how are they going to get to Terra in time to help save it? Or for that matter, how do the Blood Angels get from Macragge to Terra, but the Ultramarines don't? "Who knows? Why's this gotta make sense? Shut up and write more books."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/13 17:27:03


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy,

Calth was a success in some senses, but not a Word Bearers success by any means. They were pawns that Horus sacrificed. The Word Bearers were his least valuable troops, so he expended them to do as much damage to the Ultramarines as possible. Horus had no intention of getting back any of the Word Bearers he sent to Calth. He expected them all to die. And, well, they did, lol.


***

Someone get this man a cookie or at least a hug for being the first to say this out loud.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/13 18:17:42


 
   
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To be fair, I've said this many times in the past.

Though, originally (IA:WB), Calth was Lorgar's idea and the battle much different (it wasn't a surprise attack and there was no mustering for some campaign). It wasn't until Collected Visions that the "current" version appeared.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
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 Pyeatt wrote:
I voted XI just for fun.

But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.

Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.


Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.

Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.

... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.

Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
 
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