US Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic leads school to apologise WHY?

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**Medium of Death**

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

Steven Harper? Is that you?

President of Canada...?

Not getting it.

**whembly**

I don't get the outrage...

Is it because some numb-nuts think Arabic = Islamic?

The Christian Coptics in Egypt speaks arabic... it's the arabic phrase "Inshalla'Allah" comes from... meaning God willing.

**Scrabb**

I believe the pledge of allegiance is bad for young Americans.

It teaches conformity and mindless repetition.

Schools need all the time they can get as it is.

However, if you're not going to say it you should still cover your heart and face the flag. Other people see the pledge as more than you do. I feel doing at least that is necessary to not be an attention seeker or risk offending.

**Grimskul**

Medium of Death wrote:
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

Steven Harper? Is that you?

President of Canada...?

Not getting it.

*ahem*

Prime Minister.

We ain't our rowdy brother down south!

**whembly**

Scrabb wrote:
I believe the pledge of allegiance is bad for young Americans.

It teaches conformity and mindless repetition.

Schools need all the time they can get as it is.

However, if you're not going to say it you should still cover your heart and face the flag. Other people see the pledge as more than you do. I feel doing at least that is necessary to not be an attention seeker or risk offending.

I had to say the pledge in all my schoolings...

I turned out okay.

**Co'tor Shas**

Maybe you are the perfect example.

**Dreadclaw69**

I really do not think the outrage over this is justified

**Medium of Death**

Grimskul wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

Steven Harper? Is that you?

President of Canada...?

Not getting it.

*ahem*

Prime Minister.

We ain't our rowdy brother down south!

Sorry, not enough Tea today.

**Iron_Captain**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
d-usa wrote:
BairdEC wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Just curious, but why does a democracy need a pledge of allegiance from its children anyways? That is something normally only found in totalitarian states:

Spoiler:

spot the differences?

Is the US pledge of allegiance compulsory or are people allowed to reject it?

But regardless of that, being mad about the pledge being recited in Arabic seems incredibly racist.

I don't know when the second photo there was taken, but when I was in elementary school in the 70's, the pledge was said with your hand over your heart, not with an outstretched arm.

Initially it was an outstretched hand (Palm up I think) but was changed around WW2 for the obvious reasons.
It was called the Bellamy salute and was used from 1892 until 1942 when Congress pass the Flag Code. It wasn't quite the same as the Nazi salute, but it was pretty similar which is why FDR instituted the hand-over-heart gesture that we use today.

Also, the reciting of the Pledge is not compulsory and students are free to choose. It's been that way since the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette decision in 1943.

Interesting. It is good that there is at least the posibility of choosing.
How did this pledge of allegiance come to be? AFAIK, the US is the only country to have something like this.

**Co'tor Shas**

Here's what wikipedia says

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist,[5][6] and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898). The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism in students and sell flags to public schools.[7] According to author Margarette S. Miller, this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into The Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'"[8]

Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows:[9][10]

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Students swearing the Pledge on Flag Day in 1899
The Pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist, he had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[7] but decided against it – knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.[11]

Francis Bellamy and Upham had lined up the National Education Association to support the "Youth's Companion" as a sponsor of the Columbus Day observance along with the use of the American flag. By June 29, 1892, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the Columbus Day celebrations (this was issued as Presidential Proclamation 335). Subsequently, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances organized to coincide with the opening of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois.[12]

I love that it was written by a socialist, when all the superpatriotic people tend to be against anything even seeming like socialism to the uneducated.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's the orignal salute.

**Jihadin**

We went over that pic. Was changed to hand over heart for obvious reason. The other pic used in relation you used was a Hitler Youth classroom. I said the Pledge during my school years. Must have brain washed me into 23 years of military service. Anyone can take a stance and believe whatever they want to believe. Now if one wants to broadcast what they stand for and try to press their views on others then one should be smart enough to not do it towards a select group of individuals.

**Co'tor Shas**

I know we went over it, but I'm not sure I saw a picture. Personally, I'm glad we changed it. It's like the svastika. Not actually bad, but it's known for bad things

**Jihadin**

SGT-SSG NCO Board question.
What is a Salute? Where does it originate from. Why was it done. That style of salute does not belong solely to that one entity.

**Senden**

Squidmanlolz wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
And that's the point. I do not submit to any contract or pledge I have no control over. I will obey laws (other than ones that are blatantly civil or humn rights violation), but I will not revere and country, government, or flag.

edit: ninjed

Understood. I appreciate your point, though i myself am more than happy to salute the flag. For me the flag salute has a lot to do with my support of our constitution, as much as I hate the modern government (I'm a libertarian).

And of course, since when has pledging yourself to a flag, independent of any defined political affiliation and jurisdiction gotten anyone into trouble

oh wait...

-> Thread now neo-Godwinned

**ScootyPuffJunior**

dogma wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Students, even minors, are still protected by the Free Speech Clause... That was the outcome of the Barnette case and has be reaffirmed in subsequent cases (like Tinker v. Des Moines for instance).

I'll be sure to tell that to my cousin the next time she calls her Principle a charlatan.

I see you are confusing "free speech" with "consequence free speech."

**Compel**

Jihadin wrote:

What is a Salute? Where does it originate from. Why was it done. That style of salute does not belong solely to that one entity.

I believe the legendary beginnings of the modern salute come from Dark Ages to Medieval warfare and tourneys. - A Knight in full plate armour and helm would often raise their (heavy) visors, to each other, thereby revealing and confirming their identities to each other and showing mutual respect.

Just like the story that a modern day toast descended from the tradition of nobles clanging their goblets together, ensuring that some wine from every person at the gathering would mix with every other persons. Thereby, keeping people honest... After all, you wouldn't poison someone if you knew there's a chance you would end up drinking some of it too...

**Squidmanlolz**

It was a long-established military custom for subordinates to remove their headgear in the presence of superiors. As late as the American Revolution, a British Army soldier saluted by removing his hat. With the advent of increasingly cumbersome headgear in the 18th and 19th centuries, however, the act of removing one's hat was gradually converted into the simpler gesture of grasping or touching the visor and issuing a courteous salutation - US Army Quartermaster School

**Jihadin**

SPQR
Time of the Roman Legion.
The attempt on Hitler life changed the way the Wermacht/Lutwaffe/Kreigsmarine saluted (who saluted like today standards) to which we attribute the Nazi salute.............
Before the attempt on his life the salute was typical of other style of salute
After the attempt on his life the salute was changed to that of the Roman Legion (also making the German military more bonded to the Nazi Apparatus) and the Oath was change to include Hitler as overall Leader (little shady on that)
Also the Roman salute also showed they were not armed IIRC. Been awhile since I had to study for the Board.

Figure I broaden some minds towards the history of the salute. No harm no foul.

**Computron**

whembly wrote:
I don't get the outrage...

Is it because some numb-nuts think Arabic = Islamic?

The Christian Coptics in Egypt speaks arabic... it's the arabic phrase "Inshalla'Allah" comes from... meaning God willing.

Yes, but how many people know that? It would have been a good opportunity to educate people rather than a simple recitation that few to no people understood.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
SPQR
Time of the Roman Legion.
The attempt on Hitler life changed the way the Wermacht/Lutwaffe/Kreigsmarine saluted (who saluted like today standards) to which we attribute the Nazi salute.............
Before the attempt on his life the salute was typical of other style of salute
After the attempt on his life the salute was changed to that of the Roman Legion (also making the German military more bonded to the Nazi Apparatus) and the Oath was change to include Hitler as overall Leader (little shady on that)
Also the Roman salute also showed they were not armed IIRC. Been awhile since I had to study for the Board.

Figure I broaden some minds towards the history of the salute. No harm no foul.

Anyone actually have an image of Romans using this salute?

**dogma**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

I see you are confusing "free speech" with "consequence free speech."

Who would you hold liable, in the event it became necessary, the child or its guardians.?

**Yodhrin**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Parents are stupid. ... Feth off, stupid parents.

This. So much this. Every time I see some local anti-school closure campaign group(whether they have a point about that particular school's circumstances or not) start blethering on about how they should be allowed to start a Free School or something "because parents always know best how to educate their own children", I facepalm so hard I get a bloody concussion. Sooo many parents out there aren't even remotely concerned with giving their children a good education(ie one which is as broad as possible and gives children the tools to develop their own views, opinions, skills and goals as part of their journey into adulthood), they want a state-mandated system for stamping out miniature versions of themselves, complete with built-in generational prejudices and biases.

This kind of stupidity is what results from their idiocy.

**AegisGrimm**

But you don't need teachers when you have a degree from YahooU. Or Fox News State.

**Jihadin**

Wonder what dialect/language he used. Dari. Pashtu. Naristani. Mesopotamian. Persian. Aremenian etc etc

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Hordini wrote:
I didn't say what you have me quoted as saying.

Sorry about that, quote fail, edited.

Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

That is not how cultures work.

**Hordini**

Jihadin wrote:
Wonder what dialect/language he used. Dari. Pashtu. Naristani. Mesopotamian. Persian. Aremenian etc etc

With the exception of Mesopotamian (aka Iraqi Arabic), none of those are Arabic dialects.

**Jihadin**

Hordini wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Wonder what dialect/language he used. Dari. Pashtu. Naristani. Mesopotamian. Persian. Aremenian etc etc

With the exception of Mesopotamian (aka Iraqi Arabic), none of those are Arabic dialects.

Well then if its not Mesopotamian then there should be no uproar eh.

**Hordini**

Jihadin wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Wonder what dialect/language he used. Dari. Pashtu. Naristani. Mesopotamian. Persian. Aremenian etc etc

With the exception of Mesopotamian (aka Iraqi Arabic), none of those are Arabic dialects.

Well then if its not Mesopotamian then there should be no uproar eh.

Fair enough.

**Medium of Death**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

That is not how cultures work.

Are you trying to say that all cultures are of equal worth?

**Squidmanlolz**

Medium of Death wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:
Cultures are measurably different though. You can definitely say that some are inferior to others.

As an example, a culture which regards women as second class or of lower worth would be an example of an inferior culture to a lot of people living in the UK.

That is not how cultures work.

Are you trying to say that all cultures are of equal worth?

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe that what he's saying is that it's a subjective issue that you can't so easily apply values to. It isn't so black-and-white that you can say "a culture that respects women is better than one that doesn't".

**Medium of Death**

Perhaps a bad example.

Cultural achievements are a bit of a better measure.

Compare an Amazonian tribe with one of the greater South American empires for example.