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Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

That's like asking to run the numbers for Grots with S5 boltguns.

True, no effect there, but it has effects in many other places.

Actual-rending would be stupid good. Pen AV10 as frequently as they currently glance? In that kind of volume? Have a chance against AV11 too? On top of rending at 24"?

Blade storm is a rather powerful ability on infantry weapons that CW Eldar pay heavily for. Some still say its too good.

You want to take that, add vehicle-killing to it, then give it to the guys who already have everything else?

I hope you're thinking +5ppm or something crazy like that.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

"Know what units are good"?

Two meanings.

Obviously you didn't mean they tech against Boltguns.

The second meaning - your opponents never take the vast majority of units, because they are bad.

To say this means we should buff a unit taken in small doses - instead of either buffing the units you 'never see' (because they are worse), or nerfing the units they bring because they are OP.

With most of the offenders so clear cut and so divergent from the way much of the game works well, nerfing the OP stuff seems like a much better idea.

Sorry, meant run the numbers with shred not rending.( I'm not sure how I managed to screw that up) Rending is way too powerful( almost necron powerful lol), but I am fairly convinced that at a2pts increase per model shred bolters will NOT be broken and would actually be balanced.

Bharring wrote:
"Know what units are good"?

Two meanings.

Obviously you didn't mean they tech against Boltguns.

The second meaning - your opponents never take the vast majority of units, because they are bad.

To say this means we should buff a unit taken in small doses - instead of either buffing the units you 'never see' (because they are worse), or nerfing the units they bring because they are OP.

With most of the offenders so clear cut and so divergent from the way much of the game works well, nerfing the OP stuff seems like a much better idea.

GW hasn't nerfed the OP stuff in 25 years. The game will continue to drift further and further away from the boltgun. Regardless of how much math you show about shooting Eldar who are, in practice, always hiding in AV 12 main battle tanks. There are now lists like Imperial Knights that are straight up to immune to every bolter shot in the galaxy. I'd rather have cheaper troops (since they accomplish nothing anyway) so I can afford more lascannon/melta to shoot the Knights with.

No one techs against boltguns. The vast majority of units are never taken in this game in my experience.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

Then why are you not min maxing like them and just ignoring your marines. go grav, TFC, Bike squad, Smash chapter master like everyone else.

Also yeah its pretty fethin free for Eldar that rending shouldn't exist.

9ppm for t3 5+ shooty models with a 12" range?

13ppm for t3 4+ shooty models with an 18" range?

There should be some way in which they can threaten Marines point-for-point. Take away Bladestorm, and they lose to Marines in every way. With Bladestorm, they each at least have a chance. Boltguns kill both hard.

You never see them, apparently, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

(If you're complaining about the Cannon, less than 1 AP2 every other round isn't that huge a factor.)

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

Then why are you not min maxing like them and just ignoring your marines. go grav, TFC, Bike squad, Smash chapter master like everyone else.

Also yeah its pretty fethin free for Eldar that rending shouldn't exist.

Because I'm BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
9ppm for t3 5+ shooty models with a 12" range?

13ppm for t3 4+ shooty models with an 18" range?

There should be some way in which they can threaten Marines point-for-point. Take away Bladestorm, and they lose to Marines in every way. With Bladestorm, they each at least have a chance. Boltguns kill both hard.

You never see them, apparently, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

(If you're complaining about the Cannon, less than 1 AP2 every other round isn't that huge a factor.)

They're there, it's just always intact DA squads shooting marine squads whittled down to 1-3 models. Because marines don't have the throw weight to down Eldar tanks.

If your response is "would be true, but Knights" or "but cheese serpent", isn't that part of my point? That its the OP gak wrecking the game, not the things Boltguns should, realistically, be threatening?

Bharring wrote:
If your response is "would be true, but Knights" or "but cheese serpent", isn't that part of my point? That its the OP gak wrecking the game, not the things Boltguns should, realistically, be threatening?

If you list off all the stuff that is basically immune to boltguns or ridiculously strong against them, you end up with a list too long to nerf. In fact, GW JUST published the Wraith for Necrons, which stands out even in a list already ridiculously good against boltguns. The boltgun wasn't even good in 2nd because its competition was sonic blasters and shuriken weaponry. It's NEVER been good, except for a while in 3rd. Maybe 4th, I skipped that one.

No one runs footdar, and so bolters do not factor in against the Eldar match up at all.

I'm not advocating for any change to the boltgun. However, I would like the option to remove it and make my units cheaper so I can pay less to accomplish nothing.

Boltgun + Shred:

Vs Harlequins, standard round:
(2/3)(8/9)(2/3) = 32/81 dead Harleqins (10 marines RF kill 8)
(2/3)(3/4)(1) = 1/2 dead Orkz (10 marines kill 10)
(2/3)(8/9)(1) = 16/27 dead Guardians (10 marines kill 12)
(2/3)(8/9)(1/2) = 8/27 dead DAs or FWs (10 marines kill 6)
(2/3)(3/4)(1/2)(2/3) = 2/12 dead Necrons (10 marines kill 3.33)
(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 2/12 dead Marines (10 marines kill 3.33)

Shred looks insanely good at 16ppm

Actually I'd love to sell back marine S, WS, grenades, ATSKNF, pistols and boltguns so I can get some reasonable objective holders that don't suck down too many points from lists. T4 and 3+ are the only things that remotely matter. All those other stats are just more points I give up during the marine turkey shoot.

Personally I'm of the opinion that ATSKNF is a very useful and valid rule for space Marines. I know many people don't agree, but that's my 2cents.
Taking away Ws and bs is a no go as well because that fits with the SM 'elite' status.
If you want to make it cheaper then start off each SM with 0 weapons( no bolters, grenades, ccw nothing) and purchase the weapons you want on the squad for whatever purpose you have in mind for them.
BAM! No wasted points, and SM are still iconic SM.
(oh and makibg chainswords s-ap5. Would be nice, but one step at a time.)

Marines aren't elite. Get real. They are relegated to cannon fodder for the real elite units in the game. I want to sell those stats back because I'm about effectiveness, not fluff. ATSKNF is a total joke in practice.

ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

But.... you can't anymore. And BA never could. Garbage rule.

Maybe take it a step further and make tacticals ws3bs4 and assault Marines ws4 bs3.
Without grenades, bolters, pistols or cc weapons how much should a marine cost at its base? Right now its 14ppm. Without factoring in any changes to the bolter right now?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Maybe take it a step further and make tacticals ws3bs4 and assault Marines ws4 bs3.
Without grenades, bolters, pistols or cc weapons how much should a marine cost at its base? Right now its 14ppm. Without factoring in any changes to the bolter right now?

I don't know. But I don't need any gear on a model that stands by a flag the whole game and can't affect anything WITH the gear GW's given them. I'll tell you, I continue to have a greater appreciation for Starcraft, because the additional infrastructure tax for advanced units really balances things out. Marines can never be bad in Starcraft because I can always rush you before you get your elite units out. And late game marines are still viable because they cost no gas and upgrades affect them greatly. If 40K marines could rush Xenos in real time before they get their stuff "built" and actually get to fight their base units, not entire armies of god-units, they're generalist role would mean something.

Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

But I shouldn't be. There's no excuse for GW making the iconic space marine useless for its points in an actual game.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Well he is comparing a dynamic game that changes constantly to one that starts and ends with one list.

 Desubot wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Well he is comparing a dynamic game that changes constantly to one that starts and ends with one list.

40K needs to work in some kind of dynamics like that. I fear that static lists will always have these kinds of problems.

I agree

I hate the static and alpha striky nature of this game

When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax. Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

"When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3. "

I'm a bit past caring. I'm tired of watching ineffective marines flail before being picked up by Xeno firepower. I just want the option to sell that stuff back. People can keep the failure fluff marines if they want.

"Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? "

Still too much for a tax. I just want some T4 3+ placeholders. Because those would be useful in a game with objectives. They don't need to DO anything, because they are already doing nothing. I could take a separate force with some objective secured stripped down place holders, and then put units meant to do something in a Baal Strike force.

They have 2 hearts, so maybe boost to 2 wounds?

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

Lose the boltgun and pistol and maybe get down to 9.

I personally don't like lowering theirstats as much as altering their gear. I don't think that you should lose the ability to take SM as we have them now, but rather you start with 0 upgrades and purchase whatever you want to give them. So at 14ppm you should be able to equip your Marines exactly as they are now.
This caters to the 'one role' group of players as well as allowing them to be generalits if you want them to.