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 chaosmarauder wrote:
They have 2 hearts, so maybe boost to 2 wounds?

Thats impossible fluff - how could a marine have 2 hearts! I think we should ignore this fluff because it's so unnatural to have that many hearts.

I'm joking dude - these people don't care about fluff though - they think marines are guardsmen in plot armor and .77 cal rifles are standard weapons..

But their stats are one of the big sources of waste. LD, S, WS. As I said, I don't care about the fluff, since they don't perform anything like the fluff already.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

Lose the boltgun and pistol and maybe get down to 9.

Get a lasgun for free? no problem.

Is there some 'nunwin' rule on DakkaDakka?

Any sufficiently circular thread will eventually involve Sisters?

(Very appropriate here, but wow...)

So how about this:
Space Marine Tactical Squad: 45pts
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+ (sgt)
Wargear:
Power armor

Special Rules:
ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

May take up to 5 more marines- 9ppm
Each space marine may take from the following:
May take a bolter- 2pt
May take a bolt pistol and ccw- 1pt ( can replace ccw for chainsword for 1pt)
May take frag grenades- 1pt
May take krak grenades- 1pt
Up to 1 marine may instead take from the special or heavy weapons list for every 5 marines in squad.
Sgt has access to special, ranged, and melee weapons.

Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

There is total freedom through Unbound to create lists in 7th, if players are taking advantage by abusing the FOC (which is what makes Bolters useless) let's give credit where credit is due!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

Exalted.
Yep that would do it!

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
So how about this:
Space Marine Tactical Squad: 45pts
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+ (sgt)
Wargear:
Power armor

Special Rules:
ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

May take up to 5 more marines- 9ppm
Each space marine may take from the following:
May take a bolter- 2pt
May take a bolt pistol and ccw- 1pt ( can replace ccw for chainsword for 1pt)
May take frag grenades- 1pt
May take krak grenades- 1pt
Up to 1 marine may instead take from the special or heavy weapons list for every 5 marines in squad.
Sgt has access to special, ranged, and melee weapons.

Dat chainsword - unfortunately that would be a wasted point.

Yes it would. Forgot that it has the same profile as ccw.

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

You used to be able to fail ANY moral related thing for IIRC 4-5th edtion marines.

it used to be under utilized like feth.

Being able to get shot, lose 25% then run away to deny charge is HUGE when they walk back and shoot like normal again.

our weapons are useless is only in CC which. if you are already stuck there then you are probably already in trouble. Also there will be nothing that they cannot hurt as they always have a krak grenade at sT6 edit: (actually i guess you cannot hurt av13 walkers)

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

Yes...and the unit is limited to 1 heavy and 1 special!!!

I can chose to fail moral checks when I bring papa smurf. He costs 275 though and does some other real cool stuff. Relentless orbital bombardment, an additional combat doctrine. Still A huge investment. Not really worth it per the leadership aspect - 2 turns of twin linked tactical is not bad though.

 Desubot wrote:

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

You used to be able to fail ANY moral related thing for IIRC 4-5th edtion marines.

it used to be under utilized like feth.

Being able to get shot, lose 25% then run away to deny charge is HUGE when they walk back and shoot like normal again.

our weapons are useless is only in CC which. if you are already stuck there then you are probably already in trouble. Also there will be nothing that they cannot hurt as they always have a krak grenade at sT6 edit: (actually i guess you cannot hurt av13 walkers)

Okay, that makes sense. Also I had a small panic attack when I saw that Marneus Calgar was 275pts at T4 until I realized he has EW. Still rough, but at least he's not insta-gibbed by light artillery.

edit for accuracy

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

There is total freedom through Unbound to create lists in 7th, if players are taking advantage by abusing the FOC (which is what makes Bolters useless) let's give credit where credit is due!

No one is going to agree to that. Especially when I'm using BA.

I don't know, might be fun. You can try playing with my non-gunline tau.

I mean no one I play with.

I know, I'm just teasing. Might be an interesting game though.

Changing the bolt gun will mean that hurricane, storm, tl on bikes, etc.. all become stronger. I dont want that to happen since DA and their dakka banner can really abuse that.

However, allowing marines to hold 2 bolters and and shoot both only means that the DA Dakka Banner will only push basic marines over the top with out buffing bikers tl bolters, terminator storm bolters and lr crusader hurricane bolters. The basic marine would either swap out their bolt pistol or pay 3ppm for the 2nd bolter.

Also my CSM will benefit from this.

Other ways to boost Marines are to allow Tac/Basic squads to carry 3 special/heavy weapons and havocs/devestators to carry 5 special/heavy weapons.

Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots.

Or allow a 2ppm upgrade called a bayonet so that they get +1 STR +1 Init on the charge in addition to furious charge if the unit has the ussr. Like GK halberds.

"Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots. "

More S4 won't help. Marines have S4 coming out their ears and none of it helps.

Because CSM don't have ATSKNF there base would be 8ppm to the tacticals 9.


All right now I'm going crazy with customization.
In addition to the weapons listed the entire squad of Space Marines may purchase the following:

Jump pack- 2ppm. 2*
Space Marine Bike-7ppm1* 2*

Tactical Doctrine-4ppm*
Assault Doctrine-4ppm*
Devastator Doctrine-4ppm*

Tactical Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Tactical Doctrine cannot be in units with the Assault or Devastator Doctrine. Bolter type weapons fired by models with the Tactical Doctrine gain the Shred special rule. Any Space Marine that purchases the Tactical Doctrine may purchase a Heavy Bolter.

Assault Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Assault Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Devastator Doctrine. Space Marines with the Assault doctrine gain the Move Through Cover special rule and may re-roll failed charge ranges. Any model that purchased the Assault squad doctrine may purchase a hand-flamer or a plasma pistol.

Devastator Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Devastator Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Assault Doctrine. Models with this doctrine snap-fire weapons at bs2. Any model that has purchased the Devastator Doctrine may purchase items from the Heavy Weapons list.
1-May not be purchased by Assault Doctrine Space Marines.
2- May not be purchased by Devastator Doctrine Space Marines.

Martel732 wrote:
"Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots. "

More S4 won't help. Marines have S4 coming out their ears and none of it helps.

ok, well what if on a to hit roll of 6 and a to wound or pen roll of 6, the bolter gets +1Str and Ap gets improved?

That would be better, I suppose. Not sure I'd actually use boltguns though. My current 2K list has SIX bolters. I'd have zero if I could.

I generally don't use bolters myself either except as the free secondary on my grav cents. And even then its bolters with 3x then rate of fire.
On my scouts I always use shotguns or snipers, I NEVER run tacticals because they are so underwhelming.
I think a price drop the through letting you pick which gear you take is the answer for tacticals, but that STILL doesn't fix bolters for anyone else which frankly isn't fair.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I generally don't use bolters myself either except as the free secondary on my grav cents. And even then its bolters with 3x then rate of fire.
On my scouts I always use shotguns or snipers, I NEVER run tacticals because they are so underwhelming.
I think a price drop the through letting you pick which gear you take is the answer for tacticals, but that STILL doesn't fix bolters for anyone else which frankly isn't fair.

You don't upgrade the rockets on your cents? I look at it like this. 3 tl bolters is only marginally better than a frag missle and a frag missle can also get lucky and get like 6-8 hits in some situations - unless the bolters are rapid fire (cents should not really be this close to the enemy desirably assault can mess them up bad. Then ofc a 8str ap 3 shot has it's usefulness - IMO 30 points for 3 rockets is a must take. the bolters are Meh - but better than nothing i suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Because CSM don't have ATSKNF there base would be 8ppm to the tacticals 9.


All right now I'm going crazy with customization.
In addition to the weapons listed the entire squad of Space Marines may purchase the following:

Jump pack- 2ppm. 2*
Space Marine Bike-7ppm1* 2*

Tactical Doctrine-4ppm*
Assault Doctrine-4ppm*
Devastator Doctrine-4ppm*

Tactical Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Tactical Doctrine cannot be in units with the Assault or Devastator Doctrine. Bolter type weapons fired by models with the Tactical Doctrine gain the Shred special rule. Any Space Marine that purchases the Tactical Doctrine may purchase a Heavy Bolter.

Assault Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Assault Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Devastator Doctrine. Space Marines with the Assault doctrine gain the Move Through Cover special rule and may re-roll failed charge ranges. Any model that purchased the Assault squad doctrine may purchase a hand-flamer or a plasma pistol.

Devastator Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Devastator Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Assault Doctrine. Models with this doctrine snap-fire weapons at bs2. Any model that has purchased the Devastator Doctrine may purchase items from the Heavy Weapons list.
1-May not be purchased by Assault Doctrine Space Marines.
2- May not be purchased by Devastator Doctrine Space Marines.

I think those are cool suggestions. I think marine cost should be something like 9 points base with lots of wargear options for specialization. As stands currently i think a marine is worth about 10-11 points.

If I can find the spare points then I upgrade to missiles. But free hurricane bolters aren't bad either for free.
Usually I'm running grav centurions if I take them with maybe a lascannon on the sergeant and I pair that with the missile launcher because they have longer range + split fire to take out separate threats from the other squad.

What if instead of making bolters stronger, marines can swap out and use a jury rigged gun called a tri-laser gun? Like from fallout 3. The gun would be

24" s3 ap- salvo 3/6

or tri hot shot lasguns for 2ppm for a marine

18" s3 ap3 salvo 3/6

each marine is a walking nuclear reactor right?

I just go for dropping the price of marines (and possibly CSMs, not sure how they measure up)a point or three. If they aren't overpriced, then they wont suffer any more than any other troop in the game.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I just go for dropping the price of marines (and possibly CSMs, not sure how they measure up)a point or three. If they aren't overpriced, then they wont suffer any more than any other troop in the game.

I'm all for lowering their cost. I mathhammered it out, and for 14 points you get a marine, and for 15 points you get 3 imperial guardsmen. No matter who shoots first, assuming the marine charges once he is within 6" of the guardsmen and they are behind cover, technically the marine wins because his one wound never reaches zero using decimal places, but by the time the marine has a more than 50% chance of being dead, only one guardsmen is definitely (lost an entire wound) dead. I'd say drop 'em to 11-12 points so they are cheaper than a necron warrior with buffed RP who has a slight edge on the marine in ranged combat and about equal in melee assuming no upgrades.

Edit for RP buff mentioning... thing...

The people who want fluffy marines are still going to apoplectic. Lowering them to 11-12 points basically is admitting that their entire concept failed to get translated to the actual game in any way.

Necron Warriors are actually dead even with Tac Marines in shooting each other sans upgrades. Same odds to wound, same odds to survive

How do boltgun Marines compare to things other than Guardsmen?