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2015/04/18 15:16:45
Subject: Re:To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
If there's one benefit to all this, it's that at least we can finally put to bed the notion that the game is biased toward Imperial Armies and the xenos are designed to die in droves at the hands of the "good guys".
30 dead marines per turn with average rolls. That's over half a company in two rounds of shooting. lol
But it will possibly lead to loads more threads asking for buffs to Space Marines to bring them up to the same power as Eldar (rather than nerfs to Eldar to bring them down to the same power as everybody else), to better represent the Black Library fluff where a single Space Marine would be able to kill the whole Eldar army by himself
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 15:16:56
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/18 15:27:03
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
A Corpsethief Claw (rocking Haywire Blasters) + a Dark Artisan formation supported by a Real Space Raiders detachment with heavy focus on Razorwing Jetfighters, Basic Ravagers (in reserve of course) and MSU of Reaver Jetbikes with Cluster Caltrops.
Scatter lasers are ineffective against them, as my basic Math Hammer tells me from your 91 shots (assuming all want to expose themselves) you get 55 hits, 18 wounds, 5 wounds after 3+ Saves and 2.5 wounds after 4+ FNP (not sure how to factor in re-rolls). Not bad, but that shouldn't kill a single Talos unless all of your bikes shoot from one direction (not likely) and the Knights will be lucky to course 2 wounds between them (Blast can only hit two models, wounds on 3's with cover + FNP), then you can simply juggle the unwounded models to the front. The ones that survive until turn 4 get IWND making juggling easier.
By turn two they have a central position on the board within striking distance of all objectives, have enough fire power to knock a Knight down to 2 HP's and they can easily take them down in combat. Then it's just a game of playing keep away with the Jetbikes, forcing them to jink and picking them off unit by unit.
Pain Engines are seriously tough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 15:57:07
2015/04/18 21:04:03
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Poly Ranger wrote: I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.
People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.
This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.
I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.
Ok at 1850pts:
Primary: IKs
Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant
2nd detachment:
Autarch with jetbike
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).
1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.
What are you going to do against that completely legal list?
Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.
The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.
If that's not broken, what is?
This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.
Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.
Thank you for asking. I would field one Librarian; 30 Scouts with six missile launchers; 15 Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, 15 plasma pistols and three power swords; 30 Assault Marines with six plasma pistols and three melta bombs; and five Devastators with four lascannons.
"They don't know us. Robot tanks are no match for space marines." Sergeant Knox from Star Blazers
Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life
2015/04/18 21:25:04
Subject: Re:To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
If there's one benefit to all this, it's that at least we can finally put to bed the notion that the game is biased toward Imperial Armies and the xenos are designed to die in droves at the hands of the "good guys".
30 dead marines per turn with average rolls. That's over half a company in two rounds of shooting. lol
But it will possibly lead to loads more threads asking for buffs to Space Marines to bring them up to the same power as Eldar (rather than nerfs to Eldar to bring them down to the same power as everybody else), to better represent the Black Library fluff where a single Space Marine would be able to kill the whole Eldar army by himself
Yes, and I will not be happy until a bare bones tactical squad can beat a greater daemon with 0 casualties.
Plot armor should be a purchasable upgrade dammit!
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
2015/04/19 07:35:20
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Poly Ranger wrote: I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.
People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.
This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.
I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.
Ok at 1850pts:
Primary: IKs
Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant
2nd detachment:
Autarch with jetbike
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).
1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.
What are you going to do against that completely legal list?
Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.
The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.
If that's not broken, what is?
This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.
Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.
Here's my plan to beat that list:
WYSIWYG, no proxies. I don't know anyone that owns that many bikes and since (IIRC), Scatter Lasers are a new weapon for them, I hope they enjoy spending almost $300 for their new bikes.
Three Jetbikes are 33 € and each box contains three scatterlasers. So no extra costs.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: A Corpsethief Claw (rocking Haywire Blasters) + a Dark Artisan formation supported by a Real Space Raiders detachment with heavy focus on Razorwing Jetfighters, Basic Ravagers (in reserve of course) and MSU of Reaver Jetbikes with Cluster Caltrops.
Scatter lasers are ineffective against them, as my basic Math Hammer tells me from your 91 shots (assuming all want to expose themselves) you get 55 hits, 18 wounds, 5 wounds after 3+ Saves and 2.5 wounds after 4+ FNP (not sure how to factor in re-rolls). Not bad, but that shouldn't kill a single Talos unless all of your bikes shoot from one direction (not likely) and the Knights will be lucky to course 2 wounds between them (Blast can only hit two models, wounds on 3's with cover + FNP), then you can simply juggle the unwounded models to the front. The ones that survive until turn 4 get IWND making juggling easier.
By turn two they have a central position on the board within striking distance of all objectives, have enough fire power to knock a Knight down to 2 HP's and they can easily take them down in combat. Then it's just a game of playing keep away with the Jetbikes, forcing them to jink and picking them off unit by unit.
Pain Engines are seriously tough.
Talos are getting crapped on by WWP Wraithguard with D-weapon flamers, scatter-bikes are tearing everything else to pieces.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 07:56:49
2015/04/19 08:11:14
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
BlaxicanX wrote: Talos are getting crapped on by WWP Wraithguard with D-weapon flamers, scatter-bikes are tearing everything else to pieces.
The OP's list has neither Wraithguard nor Dark Eldar allies, and it was that this i was tailoring to beat. Not that it matters competitively, but my local meta are very likely to ban ranged D-Weapons. Although i think they should instead reverse them to the previous distort rules.
2015/04/19 08:34:42
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Ah, right. To be honest all the Eldar threads are starting to blend together for me now.
My group will likely do similar. Frankly the 6th edition rules for those weapons combined with limiting the jetbikes to one special weapon per X models in a squad would fix about 90% of the problems with the codex, imo. Wave Serpent's already been nerfed to mostly acceptable levels, so.
2015/04/19 09:19:33
Subject: Re:To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Runic wrote: Luckily no one will actually have to worry about any of this since there are obviously going to be nefrs and adjustments to the Eldar in tournaments.
Not everyone. This is about in line with what I am used to. Not everyone comps and bans things. There are folks who play it all. FTN GT did this a few months back with no issues.
In regards to the actual army list, not sure yet.I only have an Eldar army playable so I am in new list mode myself. Three IK don't overly scare me with the Eldar. The Jetbikes have Obj Secured which can be a challenge, but if you push them too far backfield, one failed morale test and they are off table.
I do have a 6 flier list with BA Stormraven formation and Tyrannic War Vets formation in construction mode for standard tourney play in which it simply would focus on your bikes immediately turn one. The list tries to go second every game. The list affords me the ability to ignore IK and general immunity from them. Stormravens do a fairly good job of killing bikes and I still have 6 OBJ SEC units in them.
Of course there are tons of variables that come up in game, but this is a TAC type list I am building and wouldn't think I auto lose to what the OP listed.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
2015/04/19 10:05:03
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Belakor hides behind the big tanks the bikes can#t hurt, helldraek and typhon delete bikes, Belakor and D-thirster kill any knight that gets close (make thirster invisible first)
DFTT
2015/04/19 10:13:03
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Poly Ranger wrote: Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.
You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.
Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)
In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.
Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him
Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.
Im not demanding anything, i could not care less about some random stranger who thinks because he shouts loud enough and often enough he deserves respect, respect is earned and acting like a 12 year old gets you scorn from most people, not respect
Reading through this thread, you're the one that comes off worse in this. Please go somewhere else if you're just going to go ad hominem on whoever says something you don't like.
The very title of this thread is a direct insult to anybody who has a different opinion than this guy. Maybe he wants to have a discussion with somebody over something he has clearly made his mind up about and has no intention of changing his viewpoint on, maybe he is just here to whine as posting multiple threads on the same topic leads one to believe. I mean lets face it, people like this other guy dont want to hear counter arguments, his mind is made up and we all know his thoughts and opinions are law, and woe be to anybody who thinks otherwise. Maybe bikes are OP, but ill play against them in the context of an actual 40k game and form an actual opinion based on actual gameplay exeperience, not by posting multiple threads and posts in those threads about how the sky is falling.
My mistake was entering a thread that is clearly just an excuse to have a anti eldar circle jerk and nobody wants to hear otherwise, thats cool though, everybody is allowed an opinion, I prefer to form mine when it concerns the tabletop, on the tabletop
You haven't actually read any of this thread apart from the replies to you have you? If you have you will see what you are saying is a complete fallacy - I have listened to other people's lists and debated with them as well as agreed with them on multiple counts. This thread itself is a complete contradiction to what you say - just read it.
As to my other thread, it was about whether I/we should email GW and if it would make any difference, this thread is about countering jetbikes when paired with units which require the complete opposite tailoring.
Now I've asked you nicely to stop being insulting. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt since you have not posted much and explained that this site does not accept the behaviour you have displayed. You have continued with your insults. It has been demonstrated to you by others that you are coming across poorly. I advise one last time that you stop with your insults as your behaviour is coming across as, quite frankly, very immature. I also advise you read the posts in a thread before commenting, to save yourself embarrasment of posting things that simply aren't true.
Poly Ranger wrote: I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.
People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.
This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.
I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.
Ok at 1850pts:
Primary: IKs
Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant
2nd detachment:
Autarch with jetbike
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).
1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.
What are you going to do against that completely legal list?
Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.
The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.
If that's not broken, what is?
This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.
Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.
Thank you for asking. I would field one Librarian; 30 Scouts with six missile launchers; 15 Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, 15 plasma pistols and three power swords; 30 Assault Marines with six plasma pistols and three melta bombs; and five Devastators with four lascannons.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
2015/04/19 10:29:20
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Sorry for the distraction Experiment. Do you have a quick list so I can see what you are getting at? It's hard to visualise it all at those points without a list. I don't know the rules of the new Blood thirster. Would he really be that effective against 3 knights? The screamers problem is that to get in assault range they would have to move near a knight at some point anyway. Would you still be getting enough warp charge though for invis, psy shriek and flickering fire if bringing a FMC, a BT and screemers/hounds?
Sorry for the delay, but play-off hockey got in the way of things - whadda expect, I'm Canadian!
Thinking it over a bit more however, for Daemons, I would think something based around a core list along the lines of:
CAD #2:
Lv3 Tzherald on Disc w/The Good Book
Lv3 Tzherald on Disc
Nurgle DP w/Lv1 + Wings.
2x 11 Horrors
9x Screamers
Not 100% on the pts as I don't have Be'lakor's rules myself... But essentially, you've got:
1. Be'lakor outright guarantees Invis due to being a loremaster of Telepathy. Plus IIRC, from what other Daemon players have told me, he's an FMC who can jink for a 2++ cover save. Have fun shooting him down!
2. Mini Screamerstar that gets the added bonus of Invis. Again, I'm not sure if Stomps are auto hits or not, (I've not played against a single Knight), but considering the unit can only be Snapshot at and only hit on 6's in combat with non-auto hitting attacks, on top of rocking a re-rolled 2++ save, it's as pretty close to utterly unkillable as 40k gets.
3. Nurgle FMC's zip about, with obnoxious cover saves due to both Jink + Stealth & Shrouded, and have fun Psy Shrieking the living hell out of those Jetbikes. (3D6 - Ld = no armour/cover save wounds on MSU Ld8 unit is going to hurt... A lot!)
4. Horror squads each provide 2WC's to begin with. Only job is to hug cover/stay of out LoS, and if shot at, Go to Ground for improved cover saves that re-roll 1's due to DoT rule.
The Portalglyph gets dropped off behind LoS blocking terrain T1, and on a 4+ each turn can generate yet another D6 Horrors for continued WC generation.
What would *really* improve on this is if the pts are there to allow Fateweaver into the mix... mainly for his re-roll per turn to ensure the Grimoire doesn't bite the Screamerstar in the arse, while also providing another 4WC's, as well as another flying source of Psy Shriek for gakking all over Jetbikers.
Or else for 33pts less than Fatey, bring an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster, hit him with Invis + Grimoire and go punch Knights with a total of 7/WS10 Str.D attacks on the charge!
Yeh Be'lakor would definitely help and can take out a knight, but would struggle with more. Knights stomps do hit invis units which would be a problem for screamers. Also you need slanesshi DPs for psychic shriek, Nurgle has access to biomancy as far as I am aware not telepathy (will have to check that in my deamons dex). I'm not so sure the horrors would last long at all against jbs. And when they are gone you have a screamer star and 3 FMCs. I'd say the thirster between the two as you only have be'lakor and maybe the screamers if rolling lucky to counter the knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Assuming unbound and me younger than you, full min-sized squads of grots, and you will die of old age before the end of the game ?
Haha that would be an irritating match!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Engine of War wrote: Stormsword to use its giant pie plate of ST and AP no cover of DEATH. Sure its short range but as far as I know its range is the same as the jetbike weapons or most of them at least. I think the AT weapons are shorter ranged than that but I can't recall.
Malcador Infernuses (plural) to cook them.
Stormlords to dakka them to bits with Vulcan Macharius for additional Dakka-ing. heck, 1 Stormlord with 2 escorting VM's if they stand still would unleash 90 shots into something or someone really unlucky!! Not to mention all the other weapons on board AND the Stormlords passengers firing their guns as well.
I don't think hydras are worth it unless they come from the Imperial Armor book where they get the Anti-jink Targeting Computer ability for 5 more points which Im sure in volume could ruin their day.
Hellhounds if desperate.
Collossus only effective if at long range (which they won't be by turn 1)
Praetor Launcher with Firestorm missiles might do serious damage if the board is large enough like Apoc.
Hellhammer perhaps as well.
I wonder if a Dominus would work?
The issue with investing points into superheavies is that it leaves little firepower to take down the knights. Without D weapons, superheavies are very poor point for point at taking down other superheavies. Apart from knights when they get into base contact. Neither Hydras nor hellhounds have the ap to seriously worry jbs.
Belakor hides behind the big tanks the bikes can#t hurt, helldraek and typhon delete bikes, Belakor and D-thirster kill any knight that gets close (make thirster invisible first)
I like the idea of this list. Will the BT and be'lakor be able to tackle 3 knights though? I don't know the rules for this stD thirster so I couldn't say. Heldrake and typhon are definitely CSMs best shout against bikes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 10:46:49
2015/04/19 10:51:54
Subject: Re:To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Take 3 knights, Pask and some cheap all armored friends.
Jetbikes are fast MEQ priced like termies and I really doubt people have trouble killing them. Every kill hurts the eldar player due to how expensive the units are relatively speaking. I am sure smart playera will adapt.
2015/04/19 11:01:18
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Yes, ANY Chaos Daemons DP an take Telepathy for some silly reason... They're the only psykers in fact in the entire codex who aren't limited to the same spell lores as the Greaters & Heralds of their respective Gods are.
Hence, you can have Tzeentch & Slaany Princes with Ironarm/Warpspeed shenanigans, while Nurgle Princes can go about and scream at you like an angry, scorned 3rd ex-wife!
It's honestly one the things I hope they fix if/when the Daemon book gets looked at again, and lock Princes into the same lores as like-marked Greaters/Heralds.
As for the Insensate Rage Bloodthirster, for 20pts less than the base cost of a Wraithknight, you get;
WS10/S6/A6 all with Str.D, but always swing & pile in at I1 due to the new Colossal rule. 3+ save base due to Warp-forged armour + Rage on top of the Daemon of Khorne bonus.
And he can still take a full 50pts of Gifts when taken from Codex Daemons.
Ideally, I'd probably go fishing on the Exalted table with the hopes of landing 'Doubly Blessed', 'Souleater' or 'Warptether'... Otherwise may as well go for 2x Greater Gifts and just pray you don't roll up a 6 and waste 20pts on a 3+ save you don't need.
If the Knight doesn't put him down, you're typically looking at one very pasted pile of scrap metal!
2015/04/19 15:02:16
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Poly Ranger wrote: 27points is not 40pts. Nowhere near. And 36" range with jsj as well as the optional jink makes them far more durable than termis.
.
Grey knight termies are 33 a piece. Granted it is not the same but it is approaching a very expensive specialist level. Fire dragon is 22 a piece. Dark reaper is 30. 27 pts is not your old throwaway tax jetbikes. Now if someone bring a 25 easy to kill meqs to the table...haha.. There are a ton of things that can kill meqs. If the eldar jinks it means they think you are a threat enough they are willing to give up their shooting. If they are shooting snapshots every round hell you should be winning. His "key units" are not killing with the expensive weapons.
81 pts for 3 MEQs vs. say DE venom 55 pts for 12 shots both no significant AP... Venoms should be conquering the world. On paper they looked great. In reality ... They are nowhere near top of the tourneys.
Now if the jetbikes are 'tanked' by someone like smashfucker backed up with fnp then yeah.. Maybe the jetbikes is cause for concern. But free running meqs, no.
2015/04/19 15:16:57
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Free running meqs with a range of 36". It's not easy to kill that many meqs at 36", because most heavy weapons are overcosted. Especially IoM heavy weapons. So many players are used to meqs falling all over themselves trying to get close. Because they are forced to have CC gear. These will be RUNNING AWAY from you. Anyone who doesn't think that scatbikes will be an issue really hasn't thought it through completely. To put it nicely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 15:19:43
2015/04/19 15:21:16
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
glnngu wrote: Not to mention the pie plates laid out by the IKs should scare the jetbikes. If they mass the jetbikes... Great .. Even better for the pie plates.
Jetbikes gone from a good unit to a great unit. It is in no way breaking the game unless you are playing low power friendly list.
You mean the Knight that just got evaporated by D-weapons?
2015/04/19 15:30:26
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
glnngu wrote: Not to mention the pie plates laid out by the IKs should scare the jetbikes. If they mass the jetbikes... Great .. Even better for the pie plates.
Jetbikes gone from a good unit to a great unit. It is in no way breaking the game unless you are playing low power friendly list.
You mean the Knight that just got evaporated by D-weapons?
I am responding to the openings post. If you are going to add d-weapons to the discussion then we are no longer taking about jetbikes. My point is jetbikes alone does not means auto-win as this thread seems to imply.
2015/04/19 15:32:07
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Of course not. Land Raiders would actually have a job if it were just scatbikes. But its scatbikes plus improved pskyers plus D-weapons everywhere. The scatbikes are the TROOPS for crying out loud.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 15:32:21
2015/04/19 15:39:56
Subject: To jetbike apologists: What would you do against this?
Poly Ranger wrote: Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.
You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.
Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)
In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.
Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him
Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.
Im not demanding anything, i could not care less about some random stranger who thinks because he shouts loud enough and often enough he deserves respect, respect is earned and acting like a 12 year old gets you scorn from most people, not respect
Reading through this thread, you're the one that comes off worse in this. Please go somewhere else if you're just going to go ad hominem on whoever says something you don't like.
The very title of this thread is a direct insult to anybody who has a different opinion than this guy. Maybe he wants to have a discussion with somebody over something he has clearly made his mind up about and has no intention of changing his viewpoint on, maybe he is just here to whine as posting multiple threads on the same topic leads one to believe. I mean lets face it, people like this other guy dont want to hear counter arguments, his mind is made up and we all know his thoughts and opinions are law, and woe be to anybody who thinks otherwise. Maybe bikes are OP, but ill play against them in the context of an actual 40k game and form an actual opinion based on actual gameplay exeperience, not by posting multiple threads and posts in those threads about how the sky is falling.
My mistake was entering a thread that is clearly just an excuse to have a anti eldar circle jerk and nobody wants to hear otherwise, thats cool though, everybody is allowed an opinion, I prefer to form mine when it concerns the tabletop, on the tabletop
You haven't actually read any of this thread apart from the replies to you have you? If you have you will see what you are saying is a complete fallacy - I have listened to other people's lists and debated with them as well as agreed with them on multiple counts. This thread itself is a complete contradiction to what you say - just read it.
As to my other thread, it was about whether I/we should email GW and if it would make any difference, this thread is about countering jetbikes when paired with units which require the complete opposite tailoring.
Now I've asked you nicely to stop being insulting. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt since you have not posted much and explained that this site does not accept the behaviour you have displayed. You have continued with your insults. It has been demonstrated to you by others that you are coming across poorly. I advise one last time that you stop with your insults as your behaviour is coming across as, quite frankly, very immature. I also advise you read the posts in a thread before commenting, to save yourself embarrasment of posting things that simply aren't true.
Poly Ranger wrote: I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.
People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.
This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.
I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.
Ok at 1850pts:
Primary: IKs
Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant
2nd detachment:
Autarch with jetbike
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
3 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL
5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).
1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.
What are you going to do against that completely legal list?
Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.
The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.
If that's not broken, what is?
This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.
Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.
Thank you for asking. I would field one Librarian; 30 Scouts with six missile launchers; 15 Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, 15 plasma pistols and three power swords; 30 Assault Marines with six plasma pistols and three melta bombs; and five Devastators with four lascannons.
-x5 Veteran Squads with x3 Meltaguns each and Carapace Armor. All are mounted in Valkyries with Multi-laser and Rocket Pods
-x2 Vendetta Gunships
-x1 Vulture Gunship with Punisher Cannons
Turn one x3 Valkyries come in with the Elysian Special Rule, good luck trying to shoot down x8 flyers with that list.
That would be a tough match up. It would all be down to if the eldar + IK could kill and deposited ground units to table the list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jSewell wrote: Fellblade + Sicarans.
Or Medusas with the special shells maybe
There wouldn't be enough firepower there to take down 3 knights before they ripped into you.
lets run down your list of insults you have thrown out to me, while at the same time talking out the other side of your own mouth about trying to have a nice discussion and not insulting anybody
1) provocative title that is an insult to anybody with a different opinion than you
2)"Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting" calling me a hypocrite and claiming im demanding respect from you. False.
3)"behaviour is coming across as, quite frankly, very immature" and than you go on to say that im an embaressment. Are immature and embaressment insults where you live, they sure are where i live.
What is false about stating i want to play games before rushing to judgement, which the only thing i have said. What contradictory things have i said when the only thing ive said is i want to play games vs it first before i make definitive statements like you do. Ive posted four times total with this post, and two of them where not even to you, yet you replied asif i did, bizarre. Im just amazed at how definitive you are being on a topic you have zero firsthand/personal experience on, How many tournies have you won to be such an expert? A person who spouts off their opinion as fact with zero experience, is an idiot. You accuse me of skipping over what you said (which is easy when youve posted 45 times in 2 days over 6 identical tear filled threads), than gloss over what i said. Good times.
The one good thing about this thread is it makes it easier to put mouth breathers on ignore whose views i could not care less about. Congrats on being the first and only person ive ever had to ignore on these forums.
If eldar do not win the next major tourney, can i come back here and give you a virtual tissue? and will you use said tissue to mop up the tears running down your face.
Have you never heard the term apologist before? It is not an insult. I have pointed out your hypocrisy, and stated that your BEHAVIOUR is immature and embarrassing, which is true. This was pointed out, as stated, to make you aware of dakka forum rules, as you seem to be very unaware of them.
You have said that I am unwilling to listen to others opinions - false. You have said I am unwilling to properly debate and change my opinion on anything - false. See above.
Whilst you may not have posted directly to me, you posted about me on a thread that I started - how does that in any way not involve me?
As another poster said on a different thread, if a Warlord titan was worth 1pt, would you need to playtest it to know it was broken? To those of us with any experience of the game and any mathematical ability, it is clear these jbs are OP.
I was also unaware that dakka policy was only major tournament winners are allowed to post opinions and have debates. Does this include yourself by any chance?
I will make one more suggestion to you as you clearly are not listening to my repeated requests that you follow dakkas rules on etiquette. Go away and take a few breaths, calm yourself down, maybe have a cup of tea and a chill out. You are obviously angered very easily and it really isn't worth it. It definitely isn't worth resorting to the insulting attitude you have adopted if somebody doesn't agree with you. You will enjoy dakka a lot more and be able to have rational discussions if you check your anger and urge to insult and generally be overall happier. Now I know you probably won't listen to this advice, but I sincerely hope you do as it will make you dakka experiences much more enjoyable if you don't get angry at those who disagree with you.
