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Sicarans are fast, so lets assume they all target the same knight and 2 moved 12" to get his side armour to avoid the shielding.
From the flanking sicarans you would get 1.78pens from the main guns total and 0.83 glances/pens from 2 lascannons and 2 snap firing lascannons.
From the 2 shooting the front you would get 0.45pens, if the knight has a reroll, from the main guns and 0.33 pens/glances from the lascannons. For a total of 3.39hps stripped from a knight. If the iron hands player went first, that would be 2 turns of shooting so a knight down before the other 2 hit your lines.
If the knights went first, it would be very likey that all 3 would make it to your lines. Of course that's not counting the 4 st8 shots of the conversion beamers if you also shoot them at the knights. And getting side armour shots would easily open up the side armour of the sicarans to the jbs.

Space wolves with droppoding terminators with combi-melta's and chainfists, three of the heavy support flyers, a couple small units of thunderwolf cavalry with stormshields and thunderhamers and a wolf riding Wolford equipped to taste. Don't have the codex handy, but that should handle it.

The bikes would have to get away from the termies, the flyers, and the cavalry to not die. I have drop pods on objectives, and the big flyers are firing off str 8large blasts to mitigate their offense.

Also, I don't believe I am an apologist. But that list is crazy strong without he points spent on scatter lasers.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.

You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.

Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)

In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.

Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him

Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.

The list has at 4 sources of s10 ap1 blasts(2 are large blasts) from different conversion beamer sources, + Lascannons and ignores cover auto cannons every where.
+ everything has IWND and you can split deploy so that they can't focus all in the same spot. Just remember to focus fire the heavy weapons on one knight at a time, and murder the bikes with the autocannon shots.

Poly Ranger wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.

You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.

Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)

In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.

Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him

Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.

Git gud, wut r' ya? A grot?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Space wolves with droppoding terminators with combi-melta's and chainfists, three of the heavy support flyers, a couple small units of thunderwolf cavalry with stormshields and thunderhamers and a wolf riding Wolford equipped to taste. Don't have the codex handy, but that should handle it.

The bikes would have to get away from the termies, the flyers, and the cavalry to not die. I have drop pods on objectives, and the big flyers are firing off str 8large blasts to mitigate their offense.

Also, I don't believe I am an apologist. But that list is crazy strong without he points spent on scatter lasers.

Yeh three av12 flyers would prove a problem when your other units are durable enough to avoid being wiped. What would your pod squads shoot? The knights or the bikes? The termis could be taken down with massed scatter fire or the thunderwolves but not both. It would be down to whether the knights would win against chainfist termis or th/ss thunderwolves.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Space wolves with droppoding terminators with combi-melta's and chainfists, three of the heavy support flyers, a couple small units of thunderwolf cavalry with stormshields and thunderhamers and a wolf riding Wolford equipped to taste. Don't have the codex handy, but that should handle it.

The bikes would have to get away from the termies, the flyers, and the cavalry to not die. I have drop pods on objectives, and the big flyers are firing off str 8large blasts to mitigate their offense.

Also, I don't believe I am an apologist. But that list is crazy strong without he points spent on scatter lasers.

Yeh three av12 flyers would prove a problem when your other units are durable enough to avoid being wiped. What would your pod squads shoot? The knights or the bikes? The termis could be taken down with massed scatter fire or the thunderwolves but not both. It would be down to whether the knights would win against chainfist termis or th/ss thunderwolves.

Bikes. Once that threat is removed, knights.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
The list has at 4 sources of s10 ap1 blasts(2 are large blasts) from different conversion beamer sources, + Lascannons and ignores cover auto cannons every where.
+ everything has IWND and you can split deploy so that they can't focus all in the same spot. Just remember to focus fire the heavy weapons on one knight at a time, and murder the bikes with the autocannon shots.

But it's not st10 against closing knights who have moved 12" towards you. The sicarans aren't enough to take down the knights in time unfortunately. The ignores jink rending autocannons will be good against bikes but you really need to take the knights down before they hit your lines. The advantage the sicarans have over normal tanks though is that due to being fast, they are better able to bypass the shielding of the knights. Spread will help, but if focussing on the same knight it will mean exposing your own side armour to the bikes.

Because $300 is such an insane amount to spend on GW, right? I spend more than that going to 1 football game. Just the rules are $135, you guys are acting like $300 is $3,000. Everyone in my local group spends $100 a month minimum, $200-300 when new releases for their army drop. -Toofast



Ummm... A lot of people here a cheapos like me, for my 2250ish point chaos army I have only spent around 250-300 dollars for the whole army with a random additional rhino.

.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.

You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.

Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)

In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.

Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him

Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.

Im not demanding anything, i could not care less about some random stranger who thinks because he shouts loud enough and often enough he deserves respect, respect is earned and acting like a 12 year old gets you scorn from most people, not respect

So a rational discussion with counterpoints, rebuttals and also acceptance of some of their points is acting like a 12 year old?

Do you really think coming onto a forum and insulting somebody, like you have done earns you respect? Or do you think it makes you appear that which you accuse others of? You seem to have a lot of anger in your post. Do you disagree with me to such an extent that it angers you?

I know you may not have posted many times, but insulting others for holding a different opinion to you does not go down well here. Just a piece of friendly advice :-).

A simple counter to all these shenanigans...... a grimoired invisible Anngarath or AETAOS’RAU’KERES

Haha they are mental greater deamons! I still can't get my head around Aetaos' rau'keres staff works! It seems to be a fire and win weapon. But I suppose he is a point off 1k.

Should be able to have two or three Typhons behind a powerfield under Sanctuary in a battle-forged 1850 list, the AV 14 3++ wall would be pretty hard for the Jetbikes and the Knights to crack.

The typhons would certainly wipe the bikes out. But 1 st10 ap1 primary weapin shot each won't worry knights too much and the lascannons on them are a rip off. Depends on the rest of the list.
If the typhons were included in the aforementioned SW list instead of flyers, that would certainly be a really good counter - the chainfist termis and thunderwolves dealing with the knights.
Although 3 typhons come to 1050 so the 800 extra points would have to include 6 troops and 3 hq, hmmm.
2 typhons could do it and it' mean just 4 troops and 2 HQ with 350 extra points spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The typhon idea has intrigued me. Thinking how to get enough melta to take down the knights and its either got to be Vulkan Sallies or BA.

BA

Priest x2
Combi-melta

5 man Tac squad
Heavy flamer, combi-flamer
Pod

5 man Scout squad x 3
Bolters

5 man Assault squad x 6
2 melta, combi-melta, mbs
Pod

Typhon

Typhon

I reckon that'd give it a run for its money, but isn't exactly TAC like the IK/Eldar list.

Heldrake.

Ork Biker List
ZardSNark WarLord
Big Mek, GasBagWarBike, KillSAw,KFF ,BP

9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK
9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK
9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK
9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK
9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK
9 warbikers/Nob,BP,PK

5 Deffkoptas TL Rokkits (Zard)
5 Deffkoptas TL Rokkits (Big Mek)

Turn one Deffkoptas Plink at Knights
WarBikers Kill Jetbikers

Turn Two WarBikers Engage Knigts
Deffkoptas Kill off the autarch and reamining bikers

Turn three Game is over knights are dead as are most of the orks

If the orks go first:

The jet bikes will get to shoot first due to range.

24 jetbikes kill an average of 21 bikers. 24 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 21.33 + autarchs shots = 21.6666

Lets be very generous to the orks and say the knights large blasts will kill only 1.5-2 more orks each including stubs (you aren't going to be very spread out with 56 bikes and 10 deffkoptas anyway), so 7 more dead bikers.

That is 25 remaining ork bikers. 25 x 3 x 5/9 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 9.26 dead jetbikes.
Neither gazbazz blitzbike nor zandrek can harm knights with their shooting so that leaves 10 tl rokkits. 10 x 5/9 x 1/3 x 1/4 = 0.46hps caused against a knight.

Eldar shoot, again 15 remaining jetbikes + autarch = 13.67 dead orks bikers. Knights shoot killing another 7 ork bikers. 4.333 ork bikers remain lets be kind and call it 5.

Now even if all 5 remaining bikers were nobs with pks, and they got the charge against a single knight (otherwise they will lose a lot more models before they charge), and that knight wasn't the warlord so couldn't challenge, along with zandrek and the big mek. That is 1 dead ork from knights attacks leaving 21 st 9 and 4 armour bane attacks. The knight will likely kill an ork in return with stomp attacks but will most certainly die. Going to be really kind and assume the blast scatters and doesn't kill any orks.

Throughout all this time I've been kind to the orks at every turn.
We are now left with 3 nobs with pks, zandrek, big mek and 10 deffkoptas compared to 15 jetbikes, an autarch and 2 knights (1with 1 lost hp). And it is the Eldar turn. The orks will lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cieged wrote:
Heldrake.

And what else? Helldrakes will be killing 2-3 a turn each and won't show up till turn 2 at the earliest. That means if you spend ~500 pts on 3 helldrakes. The rest of the list has to survive the bikes and knights for a couple of turns shooting at least and have enough firepower to take down the knights before they reach. The knights and jetbikes have to kill 500pts less to table. What's the list?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forging a narrative.

Exalted post haha

stopcallingmechief wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.

You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.

Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)

In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.

Great post and i totally agree. And i noticed his response to this post below, and frankly the fact he started not one but two tear filled posts based off zero games played tells me all i need to know about him

Wow the hypocrisy of those who demand respect yet show none is flabbergasting. You don't need games to know when a unit is that broken.

Im not demanding anything, i could not care less about some random stranger who thinks because he shouts loud enough and often enough he deserves respect, respect is earned and acting like a 12 year old gets you scorn from most people, not respect

Reading through this thread, you're the one that comes off worse in this. Please go somewhere else if you're just going to go ad hominem on whoever says something you don't like.

Landriader redeemers with some of them dunecrawlers with the str 10 ap and 4++ save when near each other

I'm not sure that's going to be able to deal with the 18hps of the knights. Especially with the 4++ reroll. The redeemers will also have a big issue of getting those flamestorms in range of the bikes even if the knights weren't in the way.

 Rippy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forging a narrative.

Exalted post haha

If there's one benefit to all this, it's that at least we can finally put to bed the notion that the game is biased toward Imperial Armies and the xenos are designed to die in droves at the hands of the "good guys".

30 dead marines per turn with average rolls. That's over half a company in two rounds of shooting. lol

Luckily no one will actually have to worry about any of this since there are obviously going to be nefrs and adjustments to the Eldar in tournaments.

My Elysian Drop Troops with:

-CCS with Krak Grenades (In Vendetta)

-x5 Veteran Squads with x3 Meltaguns each and Carapace Armor. All are mounted in Valkyries with Multi-laser and Rocket Pods

-x2 Vendetta Gunships

-x1 Vulture Gunship with Punisher Cannons

Turn one x3 Valkyries come in with the Elysian Special Rule, good luck trying to shoot down x8 flyers with that list.

Fellblade + Sicarans.
Or Medusas with the special shells maybe

Stormsword to use its giant pie plate of ST and AP no cover of DEATH. Sure its short range but as far as I know its range is the same as the jetbike weapons or most of them at least. I think the AT weapons are shorter ranged than that but I can't recall.

Malcador Infernuses (plural) to cook them.

Stormlords to dakka them to bits with Vulcan Macharius for additional Dakka-ing. heck, 1 Stormlord with 2 escorting VM's if they stand still would unleash 90 shots into something or someone really unlucky!! Not to mention all the other weapons on board AND the Stormlords passengers firing their guns as well.

I don't think hydras are worth it unless they come from the Imperial Armor book where they get the Anti-jink Targeting Computer ability for 5 more points which Im sure in volume could ruin their day.
Hellhounds if desperate.

Collossus only effective if at long range (which they won't be by turn 1)

Praetor Launcher with Firestorm missiles might do serious damage if the board is large enough like Apoc.

Hellhammer perhaps as well.

I wonder if a Dominus would work?

Poly Ranger wrote:

Sorry for the distraction Experiment. Do you have a quick list so I can see what you are getting at? It's hard to visualise it all at those points without a list. I don't know the rules of the new Blood thirster. Would he really be that effective against 3 knights? The screamers problem is that to get in assault range they would have to move near a knight at some point anyway. Would you still be getting enough warp charge though for invis, psy shriek and flickering fire if bringing a FMC, a BT and screemers/hounds?

Sorry for the delay, but play-off hockey got in the way of things - whadda expect, I'm Canadian!

Thinking it over a bit more however, for Daemons, I would think something based around a core list along the lines of:

CAD #1:
Be'lakor
Nurgle DP w/Lv1 + Wings, Portalglyph

2x 11 Horrors

CAD #2:
Lv3 Tzherald on Disc w/The Good Book
Lv3 Tzherald on Disc
Nurgle DP w/Lv1 + Wings.

2x 11 Horrors

9x Screamers

Not 100% on the pts as I don't have Be'lakor's rules myself... But essentially, you've got:
1. Be'lakor outright guarantees Invis due to being a loremaster of Telepathy. Plus IIRC, from what other Daemon players have told me, he's an FMC who can jink for a 2++ cover save. Have fun shooting him down!

2. Mini Screamerstar that gets the added bonus of Invis. Again, I'm not sure if Stomps are auto hits or not, (I've not played against a single Knight), but considering the unit can only be Snapshot at and only hit on 6's in combat with non-auto hitting attacks, on top of rocking a re-rolled 2++ save, it's as pretty close to utterly unkillable as 40k gets.

3. Nurgle FMC's zip about, with obnoxious cover saves due to both Jink + Stealth & Shrouded, and have fun Psy Shrieking the living hell out of those Jetbikes. (3D6 - Ld = no armour/cover save wounds on MSU Ld8 unit is going to hurt... A lot!)

4. Horror squads each provide 2WC's to begin with. Only job is to hug cover/stay of out LoS, and if shot at, Go to Ground for improved cover saves that re-roll 1's due to DoT rule.
The Portalglyph gets dropped off behind LoS blocking terrain T1, and on a 4+ each turn can generate yet another D6 Horrors for continued WC generation.



What would *really* improve on this is if the pts are there to allow Fateweaver into the mix... mainly for his re-roll per turn to ensure the Grimoire doesn't bite the Screamerstar in the arse, while also providing another 4WC's, as well as another flying source of Psy Shriek for gakking all over Jetbikers.

Or else for 33pts less than Fatey, bring an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster, hit him with Invis + Grimoire and go punch Knights with a total of 7/WS10 Str.D attacks on the charge!

Assuming unbound and me younger than you, full min-sized squads of grots, and you will die of old age before the end of the game ?

Poly Ranger wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's also the group pimping the drop pod solution.

The drop pod solution clearly doesn't work

if you go first, 52 droppods win vs everything.