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 TedNugent wrote:
There's a formation in the book that gives everything in the formation overwatch, including vehicles.

The formation consists entirely of vehicles.

A minimum of 3 land speeders plus a Darkshroud.

So if you charged that formation, he would get to overwatch with all the models in that formation.

As mentioned prior, the rule that allows the Support Squadron formation to overwatch doesn't trigger when they are charged themselves. It works almost identically to the Tau's supporting fire special rule in that they may choose to fire overwatch if a friendly ravenwing unit within 24'' is charged by an enemy unit, directing all fire against said enemy unit. Also all the units in the formation are lumped into a single vehicle squadron, so they can't trigger the overwatch ability off each other.


On topic, I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet but it might be worth looking into Deffkoptas as a possible counter. They are fast enough to catch bikers, have a built-in cover save, Scout, and are a bit cheaper than Nob bikers while still possessing the ability to bring a lot of AP2 melee attacks (and can upgrade to AP3 or AP2 shooting for no added cost).

Deffkoptas could counter, yeah and so could baseline Warbikers. A basic warbiker unit can take a single nob with a power klaw.

All warbikers are strength 4 on the charge with 4 attacks, and the boss nob gets a hammer of wrath strength 4 attack plus 4 strength 9 AP2 power klaw attacks. Even a unit of 3 would obliterate a Darkshroud.

The Deffkopta could also do it with a Power Klaw, since it's Strength 7 AP2 on the charge with 3 attacks. You make a good point about the scout move and the extra speed.

It's absolutely essential that the dark shroud be charged with a power klaw, one way or another. I'm looking at it's rules, and it's basically similar to the old Kustom Force Field rules, except it's better. It's far tougher against shooting, and it gives all units within 6" fear and +2 to cover save, or 5+ if they are out in the open. All ravenwing units can reroll cover saves, including the dark shroud, so it is just cancer and has to be killed before anything else can be done to the RW army. Even if they don't jink, that's still a 5+ cover save on basic RW attack bikes, or a 4+ cover save on Black Knights without even jinking.

And the only way to do it is to assault it.

One other thing to note is that basic Ravenwing attack squads only have 3+ cover saves even with the Darkshroud within 6". Only the Black Knights and the Dark shroud themselves, plus any units with Skilled Rider (would require Sammael) get 2+ rerollable cover saves when the Darkshroud is within 6". Also, their formation allows them to jink AND fire regular shots after turbo boosting the first turn. However, after that turn, they cannot jink and fire BS2 overwatch, so they can conceivably be charged. It's also worth noting that Black Knights are cancer in close combat (3 S5 rending attacks), but they cost as much as an assault terminator per model.

I played the tide as described obove and capitulated beginning 4th round.
He played an lionsblade-detachment.
First round I ( maybe I must avoid difficult terrain, if possible) came 4 fething inches forward.....Second round he charged with a squad of 3 bikes in my left flank ( I had a long thin line) so I was stuck in cc for round two. In the third round he tried that again but the bikes didnt make it.
So I made it 4 inches forward and 9 inches to the leftside as my third turn started.

 TedNugent wrote:
Deffkoptas could counter, yeah and so could baseline Warbikers. A basic warbiker unit can take a single nob with a power klaw.

All warbikers are strength 4 on the charge with 4 attacks, and the boss nob gets a hammer of wrath strength 4 attack plus 4 strength 9 AP2 power klaw attacks. Even a unit of 3 would obliterate a Darkshroud.

The Deffkopta could also do it with a Power Klaw, since it's Strength 7 AP2 on the charge with 3 attacks. You make a good point about the scout move and the extra speed.

It's absolutely essential that the dark shroud be charged with a power klaw, one way or another. I'm looking at it's rules, and it's basically similar to the old Kustom Force Field rules, except it's better. It's far tougher against shooting, and it gives all units within 6" fear and +2 to cover save, or 5+ if they are out in the open. All ravenwing units can reroll cover saves, including the dark shroud, so it is just cancer and has to be killed before anything else can be done to the RW army. Even if they don't jink, that's still a 5+ cover save on basic RW attack bikes, or a 4+ cover save on Black Knights without even jinking.

And the only way to do it is to assault it.

One other thing to note is that basic Ravenwing attack squads only have 3+ cover saves even with the Darkshroud within 6". Only the Black Knights and the Dark shroud themselves, plus any units with Skilled Rider (would require Sammael) get 2+ rerollable cover saves when the Darkshroud is within 6". Also, their formation allows them to jink AND fire regular shots after turbo boosting the first turn. However, after that turn, they cannot jink and fire BS2 overwatch, so they can conceivably be charged. It's also worth noting that Black Knights are cancer in close combat (3 S5 rending attacks), but they cost as much as an assault terminator per model.

How would black knights get a base 4+ cover without jinking? I'm pretty sure they would get a 5+ cover from Shrouded like everyone else. They might be able to use it better since they have skilled rider to jump out of ruins with (for the 2+ non jinking cover) but out in the open they should just be a 5+ like everyone else.