Don't L2P ..... LTP instead!

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**Stormonu**

GW needs to be shot for what they did to 'nids.

I got back into 40K via 5E's revised necrons. Then I decided I'd try my hand with an Escalation league with 'nids- starting with a 250 point army. We're about to hit the 750 point level and I'm ready to throw my models into the trash and burn them. There's no excuse for how lousy they are, and "learn to play" or "learn to pay" is not an acceptible strategy. I paid good money for these damn models, I feel I should get my money's worth out of them on the board. Killing five marines over 4 games is NOT what I want to see.

**Runic**

Well, the game is quite clunky in under 1000 points, and and something under it I consider basically unplayable.

Not having the best Codex doesn't help either, 'nids strength only comes into play in bigger games and with only a few builds.

They can still be competitive, but like I said, the amount of builds is low. And in that they aren't the only army.

**Korinov**

Runic wrote:
Well, the game is quite clunky in under 1000 points, and and something under it I consider basically unplayable.

Not having the best Codex doesn't help either, 'nids strength only comes into play in bigger games and with only a few builds.

They can still be competitive, but like I said, the amount of builds is low. And in that they aren't the only army.

Funny, if you keep things civil in terms of list making, from my experience the game currently works quite well at 1000 and even less points. It's when you go past the 1500 mark that things begin to become insane.

**Yoyoyo**

Korinov wrote:
Funny, if you keep things civil in terms of list making, from my experience the game currently works quite well at 1000 and even less points.

You can save a lot of money too, which you can then spend on things like beer (and pretzels).

Then, if someone insists on being snotty about 40k, they don't get any beer.

Fixes most problems from my perspective

**MWHistorian**

L2PE.
Learn to play Eldar bro.

**Salous**

Yarium wrote:
I think your anti-argument is flawed. While I agree that "Learn to Play" isn't a very conducive argument to help someone that's losing at the game during casual sessions, I think the way you've structured this anti-argument is also majorly flawed.

The problem is this sentence right here:

"Your telling people that the armies they have are, essentially fine but the reason they lose to other armies is due to "user error" that implies that both armies can win."

That's not correct at all. L2P -er's are telling you that if you want to win, you need to have the right mix of units and tactics. It just so happens that the "right" mix of units is often the newer shiny things - but not always! The Flyrant kit has been around for a long time; it is definitely no longer new or shiny. But it still works.

The real issue is that most of us just don't want to play that kind of 40k. I don't want to play against Flyrant-spam, or D-swathes, or summoning hordes; not all the time. But these lists are the tourney builds. Well, the game's about a LOT more than tourneys! If your group can't differentiate between tourney-lists and fun games, then you have a different kind of problem. That's a problem that both L2P and Learn to Pay won't solve.

The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.

If you're not willing to discuss what kind of game you want, it'll be pretty rare to find a game you'll really enjoy.

100% agree

**Filch**

Dafuq you guys talking about? I spent $800 on an 5 IK army and it got beat by $280 worth of 2 WK.

**vipoid**

Filch wrote:
Dafuq you guys talking about? I spent $800 on an 5 IK army and it got beat by $280 worth of 2 WK.

Sigh. Some people just don't get it.

The answer - obviously - is to spend $800 on a Grav-spam marine army.

Also, make sure to do it faster this time. You clearly weren't fast enough in buying/assembling your Knights, hence why they were outclassed.

**DarthSpader**

Salous wrote:
Yarium wrote:
I think your anti-argument is flawed. While I agree that "Learn to Play" isn't a very conducive argument to help someone that's losing at the game during casual sessions, I think the way you've structured this anti-argument is also majorly flawed.

The problem is this sentence right here:

"Your telling people that the armies they have are, essentially fine but the reason they lose to other armies is due to "user error" that implies that both armies can win."

That's not correct at all. L2P -er's are telling you that if you want to win, you need to have the right mix of units and tactics. It just so happens that the "right" mix of units is often the newer shiny things - but not always! The Flyrant kit has been around for a long time; it is definitely no longer new or shiny. But it still works.

The real issue is that most of us just don't want to play that kind of 40k. I don't want to play against Flyrant-spam, or D-swathes, or summoning hordes; not all the time. But these lists are the tourney builds. Well, the game's about a LOT more than tourneys! If your group can't differentiate between tourney-lists and fun games, then you have a different kind of problem. That's a problem that both L2P and Learn to Pay won't solve.

The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.

If you're not willing to discuss what kind of game you want, it'll be pretty rare to find a game you'll really enjoy.

100% agree

I was just gonna let this go and see where it ended up. But I feel the need ....the need for speed....

Sorry top gun moment .... Lol

Anyway. What my argument above quoted is getting at is often times when someone wins big, and the other guy complains or asks for help the "learn to play" mantra is usually spouted off by people (in my expirence) who A: have a powerful army. Either because they followed the 10 step guide above, or B; lucked into it and had the stuff already. In either case they generally don't have much ACTUAL advice. And let's be honest here. 40k in its current state is very much paper rock scissors. One unit will crush and destroy other units and some will excel vrs other's and fail against a diffirent type. Tatics, such as deployment, target priority, movement, etc will generally NOT stop that wraith knight from bouncing around the Los blocking cover and dropping a D plate or 2 on your tac marines, wich can only stand there and take it. (Having been moved to "optimal" position previously. But due to nature of you go i go, no matter where you go, I can often move to regain Los, and pummel you anyway.

Learn to play implies learning either the games rules, wich is rude or the more subtle "learn tatics" - wich simply doesn't apply. If it DID then a tatical squad would have equal chance or at least a modicum of odds to take down a WK or something. In truth they might get 1 round of shooting if that, then the return fire removes them or seriously takes away its effectiveness. That's not tatics. It's paper rock scissors lizard Spock nuclear bomb. Where nuke beats everything and the guy with the most nukes wins. And the guy who has rock just can't hope. Hence he needs to follow the 10 steps and get some MOAR nukes.

**Alpharius**

JinxDragon wrote:
While we shouldn't circumvent closed Threads....

...we really shouldn't.