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None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
Bingo and exalted!
I've been playing, in GTs and tournies starting back in 2nd ed to RTTs, etc. I also never play in a store, but instead in clubs and basements. That being said, much like Jah and Talys, I enjoy campaigns, lopsided games, and narrative rather than list building. I like the aesthetic of GWs minis as portraying the background and feel of the game. I've painted historicals, tanks, scale models, etc., but always go back to GWs models for my gaming.
Gw can make whatever claims they want about their quality, exclusiveness, cost, whatever - it makes no difference to me. I buy what I want to buy - do I buy less? Sure. Do I buy models that don't fit in any army I have because I like the model and want to paint it? Absolutely. Do I also look at the other popular model and game companies, and think they're following in GWs shadow with pricing because that's "industry standard" now? Yup.
There are a lot of people who derive enjoyment from their hobbies in many different ways - some painting models, some reading background, some playing competitive games, some playing narrative/casual, some who don't even really care about the actual rules when they play, and some who drift from one to the other over time. There are likely, as GW points out, way more people who consume their products in ways that differ markedly from the "majority opinion" as seen on intrawebz forums.
I personally see nothing wrong with Talys and Jah offering their enthusiasm about a hobby they enjoy. I enjoy their perspective. Heavens knows, I've heard enough about the other side of the coin (i.e. 90% of all the other dakka posts about GW)
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
@WayneTheGame: i don't know where this perception of a cult-like mentality comes from, when i always state that i like other companies' minis, too...
my most recent purchases were:
Infinity Yu-Jing Spec. Ops Trooper
Soda Pop Candy & Cola Relic Knight
GW Tech-Priest Dominus
Kingdom Death LE Sci-Fi Twilight Knight
X-Wing The Force Awakens Starter Set
Infinity Penthesilea Bootleg Special Edition
one out of six a GW mini, and not one of them a Space Marine...
it is not like i am never critical of GW...
i have boycotted Finecast from the start, and been very vocal about my dislike of the quality...
i don't use GW paint, and have been very open about championing P3 paints...
my brushes are W&N, Raphael, Rosemary&Co., and DaVinci...
i have worked as a painter for four miniature companies, none of whom where GW, and paint whatever comes across my desk in the constant flow of commissions...
my personal collection contains a couple of thousand minis from at least a dozen manufacturers...
i collect Rackham, Ilyad, Freebooter, PP, Studio McVey, Infinity, and many others...
it just so happens that i am a pure collector, so rules are the last thing on my list of priorities, since i don't play any games...
it also happens to be that, yes, Space Marines are my favorite thing in the world of tabletop miniatures...
none of this is new...
i always give props to the other companies that i am a fan of...
i just don't have any beef with GW, and am not hesitant to say that they make my favorite minis to paint...
if i belong to any cult, it is the cult of the "rule of cool"...
whatever looks the coolest gets my money...
cheers
jah
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/09/22 07:25:28
Where does the '20% of customers game' come from? That's the only stat given in the piece and there's no basis for it given that GW boast to not need market research. I can believe that 20% could be true, but I see no way GW came to its conclusion.
The rest makes sense. GW have wound down the effort put into games and instead focus on impractical centrepieces and OTT models.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Where does the '20% of customers game' come from? That's the only stat given in the piece and there's no basis for it given that GW boast to not need market research. I can believe that 20% could be true, but I see no way GW came to its conclusion.
The rest makes sense. GW have wound down the effort put into games and instead focus on impractical centrepieces and OTT models.
It might have something to do with them counting people like the author's kid in that. If a 12 year old walks in, buys a box, forgets all about the hobby before it's even built and moved on he might count as a tick in the 'hobbyist purchase not gamer purchase' column.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.:
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
There is, however, one significant difference between GW and all of those other companies: they don't act like GW. We've already seen how GW treats their customers with indifference, if not outright scorn. And GW would have you believe that no other companies exist at all, even for modelling supplies.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
I think he's referring to people who buy GW elusively (or appear to) and think GW is the best because they have Space Marines and nothing else will do.
The problem is, GW does nothing the best. There are companies that make better quality minis.
GW's minis are marketed for games, thus the plastic and in-game options they come with, but don't match up to more boutique minis (or even Infinity or Malifaux)
They don't make the best games.
It seems the only thing they do have is bulk. You can buy a lot of GW stuff, which according to the OP's linked article, is exactly what they want out of a customer.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Mymearan wrote: I think it's strange that GW claims they are a model company, yet they always present their models in the context of a game, they sell the models in boxes with options and model amounts optimized for a game, the always make sure that all the models they release are usable in one of their games, they have heavily accelerated their game-related releases lately, the list goes on... If they were a model company, why go to all this trouble? They obviously consider their games to be extremely important to their success (otherwise they wouldn't go to all this trouble), yet they still make statements like this... It all seems contradictory. They used to be a model company, back in the 80s, before Warhamer and before Rogue Trader... The current GW is nothing like that.
Iirc, that dramatic shift in the company line occurred during the Chapterhouse trial when GW found out that their castle and moat protecting their "original" IP was made of flimsy cardstock. I believe it was brought up during that time that toys and/or games have some sort of time limited time period of protection before they're public domain. As a result, Gw suddenly became a maker of fine miniature art for collectors who just happen to also make games on the side.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Raven911 wrote: Check out Warzone Resurrection. All the fun of the old gaming with much better figures.
Check out tge AVP kickstarter thread before you do. You may not want to support a company at depises its customers and treats them as badly as Prodos does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 15:59:35
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
Agree completely. Exalted! All fandoms have their fanatics, and the people who simply prefer the way they do it to anyone else's. It's nothing unique to GW, although GW might have a greater number of dedicated fans because they have been around the longest by FAR.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 16:33:21
Thing is, there's undoubtedly people who feel exactly the way that Zwei is talking about, because that's just human nature.
The crucial difference is that there's next to nobody for any of those systems saying "I used to really love game X, but company Y has departed so much from what made them great, I no longer do."
GW are alienating a percentage of their existing customers in an effort to chase some mythical golden goose customer that they can't know exists in enough numbers to sustain the company in the long term. (And before anyone trots out the "but of course they do market research counter - I'm referring to people who aren't yet customers, not the current true believers.)
It isn't a question of people being fans and defending someone they love, it's a question of people who used to be fans and now have walked/been driven away.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
I think he's referring to people who buy GW elusively (or appear to) and think GW is the best because they have Space Marines and nothing else will do.
The problem is, GW does nothing the best. There are companies that make better quality minis.
GW's minis are marketed for games, thus the plastic and in-game options they come with, but don't match up to more boutique minis (or even Infinity or Malifaux)
They don't make the best games.
It seems the only thing they do have is bulk. You can buy a lot of GW stuff, which according to the OP's linked article, is exactly what they want out of a customer.
I don't get this at all. GW models are very high quality HIPS. No one can deny this. There might be better quality HIPS, sure. But they do not make 40k miniatures. They do not have 30 years of background and design behind their miniatures. So why would anyone who loves 40k for those aspect care about the fact that the Dreamforge Leviathan can be posed in hundreds of ways (but still look worse than the Imperial Knight IMO), or that Infinity sculpts are more detailed? The quality of the miniatures is important, but there is no doubt that GW is among the top. So what if they're not THE best? A person who wants 40k miniatures wouldn't buy another companies models simply because the detail is slightly crisper or the posing options are greater. Any quality gap is irrelevant, firstly because it's not that big, and secondly because they want figures connected to the universe they love. That's why they think GW is "the best", and that's why they keep buying GW, even if they might recognize that there are better rulesets out there. Reducing that to "they have Space Marines and nothing else will do" is doing these people a disservice, and saying that "all they have is bulk" is straight up disingenuous, because that's clearly far from all they have.
Check out tge AVP kickstarter thread before you do. You may not want to support a company at depises its customers and treats them as badly as Prodos does.
Prodos have treated me as well as I would expect, good customer service as well.
The biggest fantasy GW ever sold was the very ideas behind this kind of buying and style of hobbyist/gamer.
The ability to put up with regularly being screwed over, the tolerance for poor rules and shoddy balance, the ability to see nothing beyond a nostalgia, that's what GW sells. Even the ability to see them as a modeling company when their biggest product is sold by the vast majority based on their use first and foremost as a game.
I'm fine with GW as a business, and I'm fine with GW as a modeling company.
But I laugh every time I see people push the idea that all of this madness is okay just because 1 aspect of it is okay. Or that just because it's a business decision that people should accept and acquiesce to terrible consumer/customer decisions because business decisions should matter at all to the customer's bottom line. Or that it's okay because of the GW sponsored idea that the majority is some mythical moneypit of a modeling gamer like Talys.
That's pretty much stockholm syndrome at its finest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 17:36:13
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
I think he's referring to people who buy GW elusively (or appear to) and think GW is the best because they have Space Marines and nothing else will do.
The problem is, GW does nothing the best. There are companies that make better quality minis.
GW's minis are marketed for games, thus the plastic and in-game options they come with, but don't match up to more boutique minis (or even Infinity or Malifaux)
They don't make the best games.
It seems the only thing they do have is bulk. You can buy a lot of GW stuff, which according to the OP's linked article, is exactly what they want out of a customer.
I don't get this at all. GW models are very high quality HIPS. No one can deny this. There might be better quality HIPS, sure. But they do not make 40k miniatures. They do not have 30 years of background and design behind their miniatures. So why would anyone who loves 40k for those aspect care about the fact that the Dreamforge Leviathan can be posed in hundreds of ways (but still look worse than the Imperial Knight IMO), or that Infinity sculpts are more detailed? The quality of the miniatures is important, but there is no doubt that GW is among the top. So what if they're not THE best? A person who wants 40k miniatures wouldn't buy another companies models simply because the detail is slightly crisper or the posing options are greater. Any quality gap is irrelevant, firstly because it's not that big, and secondly because they want figures connected to the universe they love. That's why they think GW is "the best", and that's why they keep buying GW, even if they might recognize that there are better rulesets out there. Reducing that to "they have Space Marines and nothing else will do" is doing these people a disservice, and saying that "all they have is bulk" is straight up disingenuous, because that's clearly far from all they have.
I didn't make myself clear. I meant objectively, not personal likes of aesthetics or fluff. That's non-quantifiable.
If a modeler really loves modeling, then they wouldn't choose GW (Because there's better stufff out there) unless they liked the fluff and aesthetics. (That should go without saying.)
On a side note: someone that only likes Space Marines and nothing else, needs to broaden their horizons a bit.
Also, it's possible to really really like something and realize its not the best.
I love a lot of things and I don't assume they're the best just because I like the aesthetics more.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/20 17:33:20
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.
But that is true for all games and companies.
Look at the inverse.
If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.
If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.
If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.
Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..
Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?
Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?
Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.
I think he's referring to people who buy GW elusively (or appear to) and think GW is the best because they have Space Marines and nothing else will do.
The problem is, GW does nothing the best. There are companies that make better quality minis.
GW's minis are marketed for games, thus the plastic and in-game options they come with, but don't match up to more boutique minis (or even Infinity or Malifaux)
They don't make the best games.
It seems the only thing they do have is bulk. You can buy a lot of GW stuff, which according to the OP's linked article, is exactly what they want out of a customer.
I don't get this at all. GW models are very high quality HIPS. No one can deny this. There might be better quality HIPS, sure. But they do not make 40k miniatures. They do not have 30 years of background and design behind their miniatures. So why would anyone who loves 40k for those aspect care about the fact that the Dreamforge Leviathan can be posed in hundreds of ways (but still look worse than the Imperial Knight IMO), or that Infinity sculpts are more detailed? The quality of the miniatures is important, but there is no doubt that GW is among the top. So what if they're not THE best? A person who wants 40k miniatures wouldn't buy another companies models simply because the detail is slightly crisper or the posing options are greater. Any quality gap is irrelevant, firstly because it's not that big, and secondly because they want figures connected to the universe they love. That's why they think GW is "the best", and that's why they keep buying GW, even if they might recognize that there are better rulesets out there. Reducing that to "they have Space Marines and nothing else will do" is doing these people a disservice, and saying that "all they have is bulk" is straight up disingenuous, because that's clearly far from all they have.
I didn't make myself clear. I meant objectively, not personal likes of aesthetics or fluff. That's non-quantifiable.
If a modeler really loves modeling, then they wouldn't choose GW (Because there's better stufff out there) unless they liked the fluff and aesthetics. (That should go without saying.)
On a side note: someone that only likes Space Marines and nothing else, needs to broaden their horizons a bit.
Also, it's possible to really really like something and realize its not the best.
I love a lot of things and I don't assume they're the best just because I like the aesthetics more.
Alright, that sounds reasonable. But are modelers so different from gamers? How many would go for quality over any and all aesthetic considerations? I don't think you can really separate the two when it comes to purchasing decisions. And when I say "best" I'm talking in aggregate. If I only meant "technical quality", I would be more specific. I think most people are the same way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/20 17:38:46
Alright, that sounds reasonable. But are modelers so different from gamers? How many would go for quality over any and all aesthetic considerations? I don't think you can really separate the two when it comes to purchasing decisions. And when I say "best" I'm talking in aggregate. If I only meant "technical quality", I would be more specific. I think most people are the same way.
Better quality marines are still better marines... People who enjoy GW products because they like the grimdark aesthetics could still benefit from better quality models.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
BTWGW used to be a games company. They started to make 25mm fantasy figures and 15mm SF figures to complement the RPGs they were selling or publishing under licence.
I would argue that they were a games company until about 2000ish. There seems to have been a turning point around then.
That's a reasonable argument because 2001 was their last original release (Lord of the Rings) until Dread Fleet, and then AoS. So, three new games in 15 years, during which time they also dumped a number of existing games. If you are looking at major releases you can forget Dread Fleet.
BTWGW used to be a games company. They started to make 25mm fantasy figures and 15mm SF figures to complement the RPGs they were selling or publishing under licence.
I would argue that they were a games company until about 2000ish. There seems to have been a turning point around then.
That's a reasonable argument because 2001 was their last original release (Lord of the Rings) until Dread Fleet, and then AoS. So, three new games in 15 years, during which time they also dumped a number of existing games. If you are looking at major releases you can forget Dread Fleet.
Well, it would qualify as a major flop, anyway. If GW were a games company, they wouldn't be sitting on their back-catalog like they are (apart from shoveling it out to random video game developers for some quick cash via licensing fees). It takes a certain kind of stupid to completely miss out on releasing a 25th Anniversary Edition of Blood Bowl, a game for which there are several 3rd parties still producing products for.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Vertrucio wrote:
I'm fine with GW as a business, and I'm fine with GW as a modeling company.
But I laugh every time I see people push the idea that all of this madness is okay just because 1 aspect of it is okay. Or that just because it's a business decision that people should accept and acquiesce to terrible consumer/customer decisions because business decisions should matter at all to the customer's bottom line. Or that it's okay because of the GW sponsored idea that the majority is some mythical moneypit of a modeling gamer like Talys.
Yes. This. Other IPs have their fanatics, but they tend to be a bit more justified and less mystifying than those who can't get enough of GW's customer-loathing sadism.
As MWHistorian said, we're not coming at this from the perspective of people who always disliked GW products or the way they operated, or dislike everything about it now; but there's only so long you can voluntarily take a Casino-Royale-style torture, but having a peanut thrown to you with each swing, before you get up and go find someone who just wants to sell you a bag of cashews. Strange as it may seem, for most people even space marines cant keep them sat there.
Silent Puffin? wrote:
I wouldn't be
Plenty of people have leapt at it anyway. Any of them you?
Wow, where to start. I guess I'll begin with Price, since that comes up the most; some people seem to get upset that I feel that GW prices are okay, so let me put it in perspective.
Price of Models
First of all, of course, like everyone else, I'd prefer the same models for less regardless of what I'm willing to pay for something. Are GW models expensive? It just depends on how you look at it, and in every instance it's relative. If you happen to like models made by the major players like GW, PP, Wyrd, and CB (Infinity) then *relatively* they are not any more expensive than their major competitors. If you're comparing it to generic fantasy or generic historical, and you don't care about specific model aesthetics, then PP, Wyrd, CB/Infinity and GW models are all horribly expensive.
It depends also whether you plan on spending 10 minutes to assemble and paint a model, or 10 hours, or 10 weeks, or 10 months: the price per hour of entertainment drops dramatically if you perceive modelling as entertainment, and if you spend more time on the models.
Relative to a minimum wage of $7.50 / hour or a weekly allowance of $20, yeah, GW games and models are unaffordable and stupidly expensive. But relative to the medium household income in the USA of $52,000, it's not so bad, but if the household has kids and a mortgage and that kind of thing, it's probably not a smart place to put your spare pennies. Relative to a household income of $80,000, $100,000, or more -- which is pretty common if there are 2 wage earners who are professionals -- miniatures of any brand are a cheap hobby relative to many other hobbies. Or even beer.
I personally don't have a problem with GW prices because I really enjoy modelling, miniatures, and wargaming, and nearly every other non-GW model I buy is $10-30 per infantry sized miniature anyhow. I have no interest in miniatures from board games generally, because they are not collection that I can grow over time; I want something that will "completed" in years, not in weeks. Plus, I really like the GW aesthetic. That's not to say I don't like anyone else's; I buy plenty of non-GW models too. But I'm willing to pay more for stuff I really like, and I spend more time on stuff I like than collections where I like a few things a lot, and most of the collection not-so-much.
Price of Rules
On an absolute basis, 2015 rulebooks aren't any more expensive that hardcover books from the Rogue Trader/Realm of Chaos books. There's still a price sticker on one, $45, back in the late 80s'. And back then, there were no 25% discounts. Sure, there are a lot roe rulebooks, but it's not like you MUST buy them all. Mostly, it's all faction books, and if it's not your faction, you don't need it. If you really love a game, spending $50 every couple of years can't be that bad; and if you don't really love a game, why not do something you really love instead? Life's too short to waste it on something only marginally interesting.
In 40k, you can easily get a softcover minirulebook (which is identical to the big version) for anywhere from free to $30, and a codex for $50 or so. That's not a crazy price for rules. In AoS, the rules are free, so surely that can't be a complaint.
With very few exceptions, there aren't many rulebooks superseded in a single year. Imperial Knights are a notable exception, but it's not like the original book actually had any content in it (7 pages of gaming materials, I think). Most rulebooks, even in the rapid-release era, are good for a couple years or more.
If you are a rules completionist and find it expensive to be one in the 40k universe, I can sympathize. But that's not really GW's fault.
Quality of Models
I'm not going to get into this, really. It really boils down to GW making among the cleanest, sharpest plastic models on the market (something I value), in an aesthetic that I really love. Plus, they are truly multipart and make great use of negative space, something that I also value. To me, having something behind the folds of the robes or tabard that you can see a hint of or not having a solid blob between the cape and the model is a big thing; and having models that can be connected to the base by just a couple of millimeters of plastic (for leaping poses) is awesome.
At the end of the day, it's just too hard to divorce subjective to objective qualities of models. If you like the GW models, you'll think they're great; if not, you'll think they're just more space marines, or whatever
But basically, if you don't like the GW models, I can't imagine any reason to buy them.
Quality of Rules
Well, here, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't like GW games, my simple advice is -- don't bitch about the prices or anything else, just don't play the games. They're never going to be to your liking; and frankly, I'm not really sure how they ever were, because the problems that GW wargames have today were the same types of problems GW wargames had going way back. It's never been balanced. It's always been more about cool models. There's been power creep going on since the mid 90s. There's always FoTM armies. There's always going to be a codex drop that's going to make something better and something else worse.
For other people (like me), the rules rate somewhere between quite enjoyable and great. I don't think they're perfect rules, but they're great rules to have fun with, and I understand that my version of fun isn't the same as some other peoples'. I also don't enjoy hypercompetitive play for TT wargames anymore, and almost never play pickup games, so there's that.
Something I don't see often mentioned is that unless you own a car transporting many average size GW armies is highly impractical. And even so, unless you play in your own home, transporting Knights, Prosecutors, Ravagers, or any number of models that are made for 40k/AoS is just... hard. 1850 points of most things are certainly NOT friendly to carrying on a bicycle or on a bus.
Specialist Games
Yeah, I loved these too. Bloodbowl and Space Hulk are awesome. Necromundia was terrific. Space Crusade, Advanced Heroquest, too! But obviously, GW sees these as dead end products: someone buys it, likes it, plays it and that's it. They see as far more profitable games that people buy into and spend money on for years or decades forward.
What does that tell you? If you don't want a game or hobby that you invest in, play, collect, and grow for years or decades forward... GW games are probably not going to be an ideal choice, because the company doesn't have you in mind when they're making their product, and at some point, you'll be disappointed or upset by changes.
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Bottle wrote: If they are to embrace being a model company and not a game company, I hope Age of Sigmar leads the way and all the 40K rules are released for free too. I bought some AdMech Skitarii and painted them up but the biggest hurdle for me buying more is that i would need to get 1) The 40K Rulebook, 2)Codex Skitarii, 3)Codex Cult Mechanicus just to play with my models!
Be careful what you wish for. You may wind up with free rules and 'codexes' all right... made with all the care and respect put into AoS. Complete with joke rules.
Talys wrote: Are GW models expensive? It just depends on how you look at it, and in every instance it's relative. If you happen to like models made by the major players like GW, PP, Wyrd, and CB (Infinity) then *relatively* they are not any more expensive than their major competitors. If you're comparing it to generic fantasy or generic historical, and you don't care about specific model aesthetics, then PP, Wyrd, CB/Infinity and GW models are all horribly expensive.
And of course Talys is trying to relativize everything! Again!
Seriously, no hard feelings here, but have we still not got past the "well depends to what you compare it with" point? Because that argument can be taken advantage of to literally justify all kinds of insane princing policies. Also, now Wyrd is a "major player" but Mantic and certain companies which produce historical models are not? If you want a comparison to proveGW "is not that expensive"... some time ago I would have suggested Scibor, but guess what, nowadays GW plastic clampack characters for 40k have reached Scibor prices or even surpassed them, depending on the models. It's got to the point GW plastics are more expensive than FW resin. I guess the sky is the only limit now.
As I see it, GW pricing policies are simply insane. Sadly PP seems to be going in the same direction, as for now they seem to be getting away with it due to the fact that their games don't actually require a high model count so they're still "affordable". I guess Malifaux and Infinity make that their strong point, and CB at least has the excuse of their models being metal.
In the end I agree with you about the aesthetics thing. Certain companies are merely capitalising on the fact that (in my view) too many customers are too attached to a certain aesthetic, which IMO actually restrains and limits their creativity. As an example, just imagine if every Imperial Guard player tried to make their tanks and guardsmen as customized and distinctive as possible, at the same time looking for the best options in the market (in regards to price/quality). GW wouldn't probably sell a single plastic cadian or catachan box.
In short, companies charge as much as they think they can get away with, and some insane pricing policies are - still - kept afloat thanks to how narrow minded this community can sometimes be.
As usual, clarification: everyone is as free to do what they want with their money as I am to have an opinion about it.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
And of course Talys is trying to relativize everything! Again!
Hey, professional internet contrarism pays really well.
Don't hate the player and all that.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
MWHistorian wrote: And yes, GW books are still expensive. They're approaching text book levels.
Ugh, scary thought. yeah, textbooks are expensive... mostly because you're forced to buy a truckload of them all at the same time
My point, though, is that there's really no need (really, not much *use*) to buying every GW book for either 40k or AoS. In 40k, I think you need a mini rulebook (which is superior in every way to a big rulebook for gaming purposes) and 1 codex, maybe 2, depending on what you're playing.
In AoS, the gaming group on a whole would really benefit from having the campaign books, but they're hardly necessary.
Korinov wrote: Seriously, no hard feelings here, but have we still not got past the "well depends to what you compare it with" point? Because that argument can be taken advantage of to literally justify all kinds of insane princing policies. Also, now Wyrd is a "major player" but Mantic and certain companies which produce historical models are not? If you want a comparison to proveGW "is not that expensive"... some time ago I would have suggested Scibor, but guess what, nowadays GW plastic clampack characters for 40k have reached Scibor prices or even surpassed them, depending on the models. It's got to the point GW plastics are more expensive than FW resin. I guess the sky is the only limit now.
I notice that you didn't mention my reference to income. For some people, a $10 or $20 model here and there just isn't a lot of money (or a $5 cup of coffee, for that matter). So yeah, I think it's pricing is all relative.
I only picked Malifaux and WMH because in my area, the only games that there are games nights for are X-Wing, Malifaux, WMH, and GW games. But X-Wing doesn't have paintable miniatures, so it's a little different, right? I think that Malifaux and WMH are the chief competitors to GW for dollars of revenue at the hobby shops, but I don't discount the other games and I don't mean to belittle them.
There are no KoW groups in my area (though I'm sure there are some people that play it), and no Deadzone, DUST, etc., though a couple of shops sell the products. Just my observations, and not necessarily representative of other areas, of course.
As I see it, GW pricing policies are simply insane. Sadly PP seems to be going in the same direction, as for now they seem to be getting away with it due to the fact that their games don't actually require a high model count so they're still "affordable". I guess Malifaux and Infinity make that their strong point, and CB at least has the excuse of their models being metal.
I don't think being metal is really a plus, anymore. Surely not for people who enjoy larger models, which is what a lot of GW stuff is about these days. But really, that's just preference. In all of these cases, the selling price of the model has very little to do with the materials cost of manufacture.
In short, companies charge as much as they think they can get away with, and some insane pricing policies are - still - kept afloat thanks to how narrow minded this community can sometimes be.
Yeah, for sure. But this isn't exclusive to tabletop wargames. Sony charges more for TVs, Panasonic charges more for cordless phones and microwaves, Samsung charges more for cell phones... all because they have people who like their stuff and are willing to pay a premium for it.
Just to be clear, too, I spend a LOT of money every year on non-GW models, and at least a couple of hundred hours painting non-GW stuff. In some cases, those models are kits are more expensive than GW's, in some cases less but rarely are the models I really look forward to painting $2 models (though I do buy some of them). Generally, speaking, I just happen to like GW models *more*.
My opinion is that these companies should behave like most other companies on the planet, and look to maximizing their profits doing something they like to do and/or are good at doing, so charging as much as they can get away is just, well... normal. At some point, if they charge too much, they'll lose some customers, which is good for newcomers to the arena. Which is normal, and good, too, IMO.
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On an absolute basis, 2015 rulebooks aren't any more expensive that hardcover books from the Rogue Trader/Realm of Chaos books. There's still a price sticker on one, $45, back in the late 80s'. And back then, there were no 25% discounts. Sure, there are a lot roe rulebooks, but it's not like you MUST buy them all. Mostly, it's all faction books, and if it's not your faction, you don't need it. If you really love a game, spending $50 every couple of years can't be that bad; and if you don't really love a game, why not do something you really love instead? Life's too short to waste it on something only marginally interesting.
In 40k, you can easily get a softcover minirulebook (which is identical to the big version) for anywhere from free to $30, and a codex for $50 or so. That's not a crazy price for rules. In AoS, the rules are free, so surely that can't be a complaint.
With very few exceptions, there aren't many rulebooks superseded in a single year. Imperial Knights are a notable exception, but it's not like the original book actually had any content in it (7 pages of gaming materials, I think). Most rulebooks, even in the rapid-release era, are good for a couple years or more.
If you are a rules completionist and find it expensive to be one in the 40k universe, I can sympathize. But that's not really GW's fault.
Now lets compare the price of rules with someone who's not GW. I can purchase the Flames of War rules from Battlefront for $40. That gives me a full color 308 page hardcover rulebook, a full color 100 page softback forces book and a full color 40 page softback hobby book. I can get a full color 340 page hardcover compilation for $30. If I want just the rules, I can get the 308 page rulebook as a softcover A5 book for ten bucks (without searching eBay or setting up a trade). My pocket rulebook was free however, since Battlefront gave everyone who owned the v2 hardcover rulebook a free v3 pocket rulebook.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Warmachine's book was what, $45? Full color, 256 pages with lots of fluff and units. Oh, and its free online. Also, no need to buy codexs.
Same with Maliafaux. Cheaper book. No codex.
Same with Infinity. Also free rules and free unit profiles and army builder.
So...yeah. 40k is still way more expensive. Especially now that you'll need more than one codex to compete.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 23:57:22
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
@Ghaz - Yeah, I'm not saying there aren't cheaper (or free) games out there. In this respect, 40k is relatively expensive (compared to some competitors), and AoS is relatively cheap, since hundreds of pages of rules are free.
All I was getting at is that $50-$100 (less whatever discount) for rules doesn't seem out of this world expensive to me. Plus, you can get the digital editions, which are even cheaper -- and the iPad versions are arguably *better*.
I think a bone a lot of people have to pick with GW is that they went from black and white softcover codex to hardcover, full color superglossy books, and doubled (or more) the prices. Not only is it pricier, but it's very much pro-collector and anti-gamer, as the hardcovers are a real bitch to lug around.
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MWHistorian wrote: Warmachine's book was what, $45? Full color, 256 pages with lots of fluff and units. Oh, and its free online. Also, no need to buy codexs.
This is not really true. The free version of the book online is identical to what comes in the starter box and is only half the book that you get if you buy the printed matter (unlike the mini rulebook that comes free with Dark Vengeance, which is identical to the 40kBRB). I think it's the first 100 or so pages out of 250ish.
Also, yeah, you don't need any faction books in WMH... so long as you don't care about having rules for any units, except the ones you actually buy the models of. Which isn't really the case for a lot of people who actually like the game. Unless I'm wrong and you can download the unit rules now? I did not think so.
In the same way, if you want to be competitive, you need to know your opponents' rules too, so again, no different in WMH than 40k (for most players, I don't think this is such a big deal, because you learn all that stuff as you play the game and meet people and such). In this respect, AoS is much, much cheaper.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/21 00:03:35
@MWHistorian: in my opinion, there is no "best miniature company" out there as far as casting quality is concerned...
the difference between the HIPS releases from Kingdom Death, Malifaux, Dreamforge, GW, and others is not even an issue as far as injection molding quality is concerned...
the differences is in aesthetics alone...
some people prefer the heroic scale proportions of a GW mini to the true scale proportions of a Malfaux minis...
that doesn't make one objectively better than the other, it just makes them different styles...
the availability of different sculpting styles from different companies is a wonderful thing...
i have always been careful to say that GW makes my favorite minis, nothing more...
@Vertucio: how has GW ever screwed me over, let alone regularly???
if they make a product i like, i buy it...
if i don't like it, i don't buy it...
simple...
@jonolikespie: GW is constantly improving their Space Marines...
i get better versions with each new generation of kit, so i do benefit from better Marines...
the newer plastic Tac. Squad, Devastators, Assault Squad, Sternguard, Vanguard, BA Tacticals, DV Dark Angels, DA Termies box, BA Termie box, and DA Ravenwing Command are all very nice kits...
Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013
Any of them you?
