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I collect and only rarely game, I know quite a few guys who only collect. Last year i was house burgled, the cop who came round to look around saw my mini collection, which wasnt stolen, and commented that he used to play as a kid and just a few months ago he bought a ton of minis to paint but never got round to it. Again last spring I was waiting in the vets for some supplies when I saw one of the lab assistants reading a black library book so I went over to see if he played but the said he only collected.

I know this isn't evidence and I do think the 20% is a little low but not as far away as we all might think.

From what I understand this 30% in the article stands for the manager turnovers and not in how many less customer the stores are getting.

I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want, and treat them as a model company.

I'm going to buy a load of stuff from them, but I'll be using KoW rules. I'll probably do the same when I want some more figures for Dungeon Saga.

The sooner they start doing more generic Sci Fi stuff, I'll grab stuff for a hopefully decent Warpath release. Will buy some new Tau stuff though as it's pretty.

We can all shed a tear at the death of a company we loved, and as someone that started in rogue trader 40k, it's a little sad. But there are some many companies out there, and the likes of Mantic and Wyrd are sat with a gamer outlook and open arms

 Vermis wrote:
So... anyone going to directly reply to Richard's points, in the blog comments? Tempted, but there are a lot more qualified than me.

I did but I am "awaiting moderation".

-

Why would you need the cult mech book to use your skitarii?

-

personally, i don't find the rules to be expensive...
even though i don't play, i enjoy reading the books, being inspired by the fiction and art...
the actual rules bit give context to why i am building a model in a specific way...
more importantly, i can enjoy a thirty year old book just as much as a three month old one...

even though i am one of the pure collector customers, i buy all the books, and i do have thousands of dollars worth of armies awaiting that "one day", that i actually get time to build and paint an army that brings that fiction and art to life...

after over 30 years as a GW customer, i am happier than ever with the products they release...
the full-color books and the move to digital are a nice change, and the minis get better every year...
for me, they make a better product than ever, so i will continue to be the kind of customer that GW prefers...
i am easy to please, just give me cool stuff to paint and good books to read, and i am happy...

cheers
jah

I know back in the day when I ran the games section for a local comic shop, the vast majority of my miniature gamer customers were gamers. They came to regular game nights, or played in the tourneys, or were part of a local group of players. I don't remember ANY of them just buying stuff to paint. This was 40K. Fantasy, Warzone, Blood Bowl, Battletech, Chronopia... and all the smaller GW games. We had a packed house every Wednesday for games night. It boggles the mind how they just dismiss so many people like that. What happened to all the guys who used to do White Dwarf? Do they not work there anymore?

Far as I'm concerned GW can go suck it. There are way to many good companies out there with great games. If I ever want to play again I still have my 2nd ed rule books and access to molds for the old IG praetorians. I'll cast the whole damned army up and laugh.

I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

Joyboozer wrote:
I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

care to elaborate???
i am curious to know what i have said that makes you feel that way...
i don't see how enjoying 40K minis and books would be a bad thing....

cheers
jah

Check out Warzone Resurrection. All the fun of the old gaming with much better figures.

 jah-joshua wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

care to elaborate???
i am curious to know what i have said that makes you feel that way...
i don't see how enjoying 40K minis and books would be a bad thing....

cheers
jah

To enjoy GW products now, you have to have a certain point of view, anything even slightly outside that and you aren't a GW customer. GW say it and the two of you are an example of it.
I still love the GW universes, but why put time and effort into a companies product that doesn't want me as a customer?
I should point out I don't mean this as any kind of attack, I just read what you both write, and know that's not me.

The Division Of Joy wrote:I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want

I'm sure that puzzles GW too.

Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
So... anyone going to directly reply to Richard's points, in the blog comments? Tempted, but there are a lot more qualified than me.

I did but I am "awaiting moderation".

I'm on tenterhooks.

Joyboozer wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

care to elaborate???
i am curious to know what i have said that makes you feel that way...
i don't see how enjoying 40K minis and books would be a bad thing....

cheers
jah

To enjoy GW products now, you have to have a certain point of view, anything even slightly outside that and you aren't a GW customer. GW say it and the two of you are an example of it.
I still love the GW universes, but why put time and effort into a companies product that doesn't want me as a customer?
I should point out I don't mean this as any kind of attack, I just read what you both write, and know that's not me.

Joyboozer, you're just not the right kind of customer. (By GW's own admission.) They don't want you.

I wish they'd switch to proper model-scale miniatures like 1:72 or 1:35.

Can't imagine collecting the crude 28mm stuff.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want, and treat them as a model company.

Because 28mm is a gaming scale, not a model scale. It's crude, grotesque, made for mistreatment on tabletop, not for display.

Crude and grotesque?

As overreactions go, that's the best one I've ever seen on Dakka.

Joyboozer wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

care to elaborate???
i am curious to know what i have said that makes you feel that way...
i don't see how enjoying 40K minis and books would be a bad thing....

cheers
jah

To enjoy GW products now, you have to have a certain point of view, anything even slightly outside that and you aren't a GW customer. GW say it and the two of you are an example of it.
I still love the GW universes, but why put time and effort into a companies product that doesn't want me as a customer?
I should point out I don't mean this as any kind of attack, I just read what you both write, and know that's not me.

no worries, mate...
your reply doesn't answer the question, though...
what is the point of view necessary for enjoyment of GW products that Talys and i are an example of???

cheers
jah

 Mymearan wrote:
I think it's strange that GW claims they are a model company, yet they always present their models in the context of a game, they sell the models in boxes with options and model amounts optimized for a game, the always make sure that all the models they release are usable in one of their games, they have heavily accelerated their game-related releases lately, the list goes on... If they were a model company, why go to all this trouble? They obviously consider their games to be extremely important to their success (otherwise they wouldn't go to all this trouble), yet they still make statements like this... It all seems contradictory. They used to be a model company, back in the 80s, before Warhamer and before Rogue Trader... The current GW is nothing like that.

It gives the potential customer a narrative excuse for why they are going to buy the stuff. In other words you are not buying merely a set of boy's toys, like Airfix models, you are buying an entire universe of interactive conflict game.

BTW GW used to be a games company. They started to make 25mm fantasy figures and 15mm SF figures to complement the RPGs they were selling or publishing under licence.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Crude and grotesque?

As overreactions go, that's the best one I've ever seen on Dakka.

How do you explain 'heroic scale' then?

There really isn't any justification for the goofy big heads, hands and weapon other than them being gaming pieces. Hell, even most other gaming companies get the basic anatomy of a human being right.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

BTW GW used to be a games company. They started to make 25mm fantasy figures and 15mm SF figures to complement the RPGs they were selling or publishing under licence.

I would argue that they were a games company until about 2000ish. There seems to have been a turning point around then.

 Vermis wrote:

I'm on tenterhooks.

I wouldn't be

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Crude and grotesque?

As overreactions go, that's the best one I've ever seen on Dakka.

When it comes to heroic scale it is not an exaggeration.

"comically or repulsively ugly or distorted" Tick
"constructed in a rudimentary or makeshift way" Tick

Sounds exactly like heroic scale to me. Perhaps crude is a bit much but they certainly are not precise like scale miniatures.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want, and treat them as a model company

The problem is that unless you want the gw aesthetic or fluff they don't compete very well as a pure minis manufacturer; they do some great models but at a high price. Plenty of other companies make just as nice models for less, often with better proportions.

Unless you don't like the other companies fluff or aesthetic.....I think you're in truism territory.

can't say i have ever been put off by the GW minis' proportions...
heroic scale is my favorite, as i like my minis to look like they just stepped out of a comic book...
i am not as interested in realism as i am the fantastical when it comes to painting minis...
if i wanted realism, i would be painting fine scale model kits, or 200mm historicals...
i want badass Space Marines way more than i want a perfectly proportioned Iroquois warrior...
i want a Dark Eldar Venom way more than a perfect little replica of a Sherman tank...

don't get me wrong, i like pretty much any well sculpted mini, wether it is an Infinity Yu-Jing Domaru Butai, a PP Hordes Trollblood Warlock like Borka, a Kingdom Death White Speaker, a Freebooter's Fate Amazon Queen, or a Knight Models Batman, but, at the end of the day, nothing gives me more joy than painting a Space Marine that brings to life the 40K setting...
this is a hobby, and it should be about what makes each individual happy, right???
if we all had to conform to the same taste for what we liked, life would be pretty boring...

cheers
jah

Herzlos wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want, and treat them as a model company

The problem is that unless you want the gw aesthetic or fluff they don't compete very well as a pure minis manufacturer; they do some great models but at a high price. Plenty of other companies make just as nice models for less, often with better proportions.

Oddly enough, I think GW's warped "heroic scale" proportions work very well as "gaming pieces/miniatures". Crudly oversized weapons, anatomics and more make it very easy to see their loadout or gear WYSIWYG, even in a dim gaming basement at the other end of the table, whereas things like Infinity miniatures with a "basic tabletop paintjob" blur more easily to indistinct shapes.

The latter make better "collectors" miniatures, painting to a high standard and best viewed closely in a nicely lit display area or in high-res shots on the internet, while GW's plastic stuff often makes really good (i.e. robust and easily identifiable) "gaming pieces" (with the exception of some of their frail, newer designs or oddly impractical miniatures like the Toxicrene).

Herzlos wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not sure why more people don't do what GW want, and treat them as a model company

The problem is that unless you want the gw aesthetic or fluff they don't compete very well as a pure minis manufacturer; they do some great models but at a high price. Plenty of other companies make just as nice models for less, often with better proportions.

http://www.games-workshop.com/fr-FR/Stormcast-Eternals-Lord-Celestant
26 Euro, GW's weird 1:64ish 'Heroic' scale, and plastic

http://nocturnamodels.com/product.php?id_product=11
25 Euro, 1:32 scale, 60mm tall, high quality resin

The GW one is more expensive, a made up scale instead of one of the traditionally used scales for all kinds of miniatures and modeling, and made from a material that quite simply does not hold as much detail and has always been used for massed produced gaming purposes rather than high end modeling purposes.

Either GW is a gaming company or it's a modeling company that has absolutely no right to claim they make the best models around and actually might make some of the worst (*cough*40k vehicles compared to Tamiya*cough*),

Either way GWs leadership need a reality check.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think many people collect with the intention/hope of gaming and that if there wasn't a game behind it, they wouldn't collect.
(personal theory)

Somebody's been studying KickStarter!

Quite a few differences between CMON and GW, but:
* High quality miniatures sold with game
* Appeal to collectors (eg. exclusives)
* Expensive for collectors (add-ons expensive relative to games)

CMON, though, goes only after collectors with its KS, while going after gamers -- or hopeful gamers -- as well.

 jah-joshua wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
I'd just like to thank Talys and jah, I'd been thinking about getting back into 40k, reading your responses in various threads reminds why I'm better off out than in.

care to elaborate???
i am curious to know what i have said that makes you feel that way...
i don't see how enjoying 40K minis and books would be a bad thing....

cheers
jah

To enjoy GW products now, you have to have a certain point of view, anything even slightly outside that and you aren't a GW customer. GW say it and the two of you are an example of it.
I still love the GW universes, but why put time and effort into a companies product that doesn't want me as a customer?
I should point out I don't mean this as any kind of attack, I just read what you both write, and know that's not me.

no worries, mate...
your reply doesn't answer the question, though...
what is the point of view necessary for enjoyment of GW products that Talys and i are an example of???

cheers
jah

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the almost cult-like (sorry but that really is the best way to describe it) mindset that you have. You always come into these threads and say how you don't find GW's prices expensive, you think the miniatures are the best around and you buy them constantly because you can't wait to assemble and paint them, and no other company can offer you the same "unique" experience that GW can so you stick with them and defend their choices. While that's certainly your choice and the fact you're happy with that is all the more good for you, it's indicative of the type of mentality GW wants in a customer.

You are, in effect, the ideal GW customer: You are a collector/painter/modeler more than a gamer, you like their aesthetic and are willing to pay high prices to have that GW aesthetic that can't be gotten anywhere else, you don't find the rules lousy and unsuitable for any sort of play, and you are pretty much willing to only buy GW to the exclusion of all else because you *must* have Space Marines that look like 40k space marines, etc.

None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.

WayneTheGame wrote:


None of that is necessarily bad, but that's what I think he was referring to. Talys seems to be the same to a lesser extent, but basically it's the "I am happy with GW, so GW is doing nothing wrong at all" mindset.

But that is true for all games and companies.

Look at the inverse.

If I go into an Infinity forum saying I'd love Corvus Belli to take a few pointers from GW, switch to multi-part hard plastic, make the game more suitable for larger amounts of miniatures, etc.. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Infinity is all about.

If I go into a Warmachine forum saying I'd love PP to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the "play like you have a pair/competitive schtick" and expand to unbound, narrative gaming, etc.. . because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Warmachine is all about.

If I go into a Kingdom Death forum saying I'd love Adam Poots to take a few pointers from GW, ease up on the boobs, the wierd, NSFW and not-kid friendly, etc.. .. because that might "get me interested" as a (new) customer, you get shouted down about how you "don't get" what Kindom Death is all about.

Repeat ad nauseam for Malifaux, X-Wing, Bolt Action, etc.., etc..

Yet when a customers choses to purchase from GW for the way GW likes to make things, you're suddenly a borderline Scientology-cultist?

Why are other companies allowed to emphasise specific aspects of the hobby, targeting people with specific preferences, even if it always means losing other customers who aren't going to be into their specific view of the hobby, but GW isn't?

Let GW do what GW does, just like PP, Kingdom Death, Corvus Belli, etc.. will do what they do. Customers will decide with their money what they like best. Welcome to the free market.