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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but that's kind of the Eldar's thing - if you get them in direct battle, they've already lost. Every time there's a battle that Eldar don't appear in, the Eldar win.

They should still be competent in battles though.

GW selling more models for their new shiny detachments and formations.

123ply wrote:
The reason for the IoM's stance as a "dying race on the verge of collapse" blah blah blah, is because they are the supreme power of the universe.

They are no such thing. The Imperium is the weakest faction in the setting, and the only one with no hope of victory (except maybe the Eldar, depending on how you define victory). They're just so unimaginably huge that destroying them takes a long time. But that doesn't make them the supreme power, it just means they have a lot of dying to do.

Orks and Tyranids beat the Imperium in sheer numbers. The Imperium can hold back the living tide here and there, at great cost in lives and equipment, but can only delay the inevitable and certainly can not ever defeat either species. The best they can possibly hope for is that the endless swarm turns its attention to other targets for a while.

Necrons beat the Imperium in an absurdly one-sided fight, once they recover their full power. The Imperium can barely survive against the very weakest advance scouts of the Necron threat, if/when they fully awaken the best the Imperium can hope for is that death is quick and painless.

Chaos is literally unbeatable. As long as humanity continues to exist so will Chaos. And, since Chaos transcends mortal concepts of time, even delaying a Chaos plot by a thousand years is the most trivial of setbacks. On the other hand, Chaos can probably never truly destroy humanity without destroying itself, so at least Chaos will not deliver the final blow to humanity as a species.

Eldar (and DE) beat the Imperium at even numbers, and win 99% of the time without ever firing a shot by manipulating events to their advantage. The only advantage the Imperium has is that the Eldar are also a dying race, and the Imperium's sheer size may allow it to endure longer than the Eldar.

Tau match or beat the Imperium at even numbers. Like the Eldar, the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau is sheer size. But, unlike the Imperium, the Tau are continuing to advance their technology and will likely reach a point where even the Imperium's advantage in numbers can no longer accomplish anything besides getting lots of its own troops slaughtered. So, while the Imperium could beat the Tau now (at great cost elsewhere), this is a fleeting advantage and eventually the Tau will dominate the Imperium.

LOL @ the doom and gloom some of you guys and gals have. IoM is DOOMED, its INEVITABLE!!!

they've been running exactly the same for 10k+ years. They're just like the other factions and nasty in there own right.

40k is an unending tug of war between a dozen primary species. even 50k would be the same damned thing, just with different pointy things

It hasn't been exactly the same for 10k years, though.

At the end of the Horus heresy, the Imperium controlled half the habitable worlds in the galaxy and a good chunk of the inhabitable ones.

Now they barely control a million worlds total.

Triszin wrote:
LOL @ the doom and gloom some of you guys and gals have. IoM is DOOMED, its INEVITABLE!!!

Yes, that would be the entire point of the setting. You do realize that the core rulebook (the starting point for all fluff) explicitly says "this is the age of dying, the end of humanity", right? The fundamental question the 40k setting asks is what price you would be willing to pay to buy a few more days of miserable life in the face of inevitable death. Allowing the Imperium to have any hope of winning directly contradicts that point.

I know who doesn't win - we , the fans of the 40k background.

Basically GW is on a crappy course of 1up's for any thing you are meant to buy.

There are reasons why someone would have faction A or Faction B win.

Silly Reasons like adding another kaldor Draigo because someone at GW HQ lacks selfcontrol and is championing 1 Faction in 40k.
Buisness as a motivator behind everything, when Sales pitch replaces storytelling and the most recent plastic kit gains auto-wins... look no further than offerings of the past years.
But it is possible to have positive factors, when someone has a clue what makes a story interesting and we get a believable back and forth, in the end handed over to us to "play it to its conclusion".

I just doubt GW cares anymore about their IP beyond C&D nonsense. Creativity? a rich background and lots of mysteries? a nice sandbox for the players? Thats not the aim of GW anymore IMHO.
They are off to Buy our campaign boxes, pay for snippets, and bigger and more expansive is better.


Now, why should or shouldn't a certain faction win?

Think about the setup.

GW added a xeno faction in 2001 AD. They had multiple concepts and two of them made it into the finals. Tau and Kroot. Yes . Kroot were not a smallish one unit deal like Ratlings or ogryns are for the IG.
Tau started with 2 spheres of expansion, one ally who joined their military operations ( the Kroot ). As characters O'shovah, Aun'shi in their codex and Angkhor Prok IIRC in chapter approved they got this Kroot character. Several Kroot units because they were a "half" of the medal of technical Tau and barbaric Kroot. GW supported the new army with a WD article and told everyone where the inspiration came from, what the plan was ( big fish in small pond ), how they balanced the suits etc.
But still, the Tau had a new guys on the block feel and their theme didn't receive praise only. "Take your noblebright out of my grimdark".....

First dex, first map. 8 major Septs 7 new Septs, 15 Worlds Tau, 10 Planets for Kroot, about 4 Planets of the Farsight Enclaves. Colony or 1st phase: 100k , Colony 2nd phase: 10-10k. Humans "invading" , Tyranids invading and Orks present.
First take on the Damocles gulf story. Tau and Humans meet and both don't know each other well. Tau haven't realized what the IoM is, their contact was backwater planets and thus Humans who aren't really a good representation what you are running into beyond this gulf. I would also like to point out Damocles. Damocles was known for the sword above his head... that may come down on him... just saying.

GW decided to add the Tau with warp-storm protection into the 40k verse and put them far east on the galactic map. This has the advantage of keeping the Tau alive pre-space faring ( warp-storms ) and saves them from too much attention by major factions of the 40k verse. But, there are big disadvantages too. How do you get Tau into a campaign in this Galaxy when they are stuck at the eastern fringe? Anybody else is either found almost everywhere or mobile enough to get there. Tau aren't.
A "new empire" , not very mobile and far out on a Galactic map cannot be a real threat to the established major players. So regional "wins" are all that may happen. But should they?

Every faction needs something going on for them, and since GW cannot get over themselves and tell us about Tau vs to this day unknown other xenos, it will be Tau vs Orks or Tyranids or Humans.

Ork and Tyranids are available at different "threat-levels" , like Good Rpgs provide opposition which isn't unbeatable , so there is no Problem if no one expects Tau to easily beat ghazzy himself and friends or a major Hive fleet at full strength.
Humans are available as non-imperial or barely keeping ties to the IoM and the known system of escalation of the IoM itself is based on local-regional-up to segmentum sized responses. Again, nothing says you have to put the Tau into a position where they have to fight a dedicated crusade.
The original Damocles gulf material was exactly a first contact where Tau learned there are powers out there who can kick them back and come to play right into the Tau Empire itself. No real harm done, both sides got their variant of the story.

Next Tau dex. ( 2005 ? )
Now we have 3 spheres of expansion, and 2 new colonies . Kroot and Farsight enclaves didn't change. But they found the Vespids. And the Vespids are moar loyal than Kroot , so moar trustworthy.... really?
What else happend? O shovah stays, Aun shi is out, Aun Va is in. Plus O'shaserra. So the mess of the Storyline begins.
Kroot are just 1 unit now, same for the new Vespids. Any other xeno ? No. Focus is on Tau.

Aun Va want to replace Farsight with Shadowsun and the Tau have to keep their unfounded faith in manifest destiny, so AunVa starts a war with the Humans. Because you don't focus on orks or nids or chaos, or try to let the crons sleep. No, piss on the Emperors lawn it is. Threats who may bring your Empire down because they like it that way, get ignored. Humans who would leave you alone, get attacked. Nothing bad is coming from this...right?

Looking at the map there hasn't much changed. Tau got a few planets. ( and awful fluff of a "quality", I deem worthy of use as a script for dictators like KJU to use in a speech. ) My Impression is, the Problems begin here.

And another Tau codex. ( 2012 ).
Seems Tau get something from GW regularly.
The usual suspects are in, O'shovah, o'shasserra, Aun Va, Aun Shi is back, another Tau char is in too and a vehicle upgrade character this time. One of Kroot , one of Vespid but no other non-Tau unit. Codex informs us how happy the Tau are to have the Kroot bolster their numbers. Happy maybe, but units? Just 1 ?
Etherals gain new ability. Elements to call upon...which is totally not related to the warp...

The Map got no new Sept compared to the former dex. But 2 xeno worlds, Greet and Nagi ( mind worms, so they can wind-morm in the etherals service..). Kroot lost something? Did count only 8 where the had 10 before.

Tau meet Necrons but cannot identify them ( CanoVar ). Lots of Tau vs nids where non'tau save the Tau ( but often just temporary so they can undo the Tau themselves . Humans, Crons De etc ).
There is some "losses" but all of them are somehow "explained" as acceptable . I'd say too much etheral kool aid there.

Currently, Tau have a "new dex" , or an Update? soon. I have not seen any quote or pic of the background myself yet. But I don't think the level of "autowinbutton" style fluff is going to be sustainable. 40k and many faction exist for decades. Product lines can get updates/recuts, but new things aren't unlimited. Tau had the good position of slots to fill with GW's current main love, big plastic kits. They got support-fluff ( and IMHO bad fluff ) to sell those new shinies but ultimately there is only one end waiting:
GW can't have Orks and chaos and nids etc as important and dangerous and never achieving much but small Tau at the border of the Galaxy get everything their way. Its like watching a train on its way to that bridge where we see the bridge is" incomplete" and there is a fall coming. GW has to stop this nonsense.

If I had to bet, mine would be on AunVa and friends are violently relieved of their duties ( either by IoM or Farsight ) and the release we are having which deals with the time after the campaign is IG. Emperors Hammmer hitting home this time.
Should be safe to assume we get a 3rd player in the storyline so the Tau can stay and nothing is too different. ( except palpatine Va is gone for good. ).

Who should win?
Anyone who likes stories worth reading.

 Quickjager wrote:
...They killed the fething Knight? That is bs.

 Anemone wrote:
So the Obsidian Knight died? Or did just the Machine blow up?

123ply wrote:
And did the Obsidian Knight get killed? Are you serious?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see how it's that surprising that the knight got killed. The tau do have anti-titian weapons you know. Although GW writers seem to forget, because they are from FW.

The Obsidian Knight was never actually shown dying. The Tau were actually unable to penetrate his shield and so ended up shooting at the ground which caused him to fall into an abyssal pit as the ground gave way. Now, I wouldn't call bs if he did turn out to be dead, but falling into a dark hole is a pretty big survival flag in my eyes.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It hasn't been exactly the same for 10k years, though.

At the end of the Horus heresy, the Imperium controlled half the habitable worlds in the galaxy and a good chunk of the inhabitable ones.

Now they barely control a million worlds total.

Not quite.

Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.

Honestly all this talk of the Ethereals all being killed is very surprising. Has GW ever killed off the entire leadership caste, in the current time line, of one of the major factions and had the entire faction die or narrowly avoid death because a third party saved them? I certainly can't think of a time that has ever happened to the forces of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperium or Necron. I suppose some instances like Iyanden come close but...they didn't need a third faction to save them and just because the head Farseer died didn't change that they'd already established three potent successor characters to him and the entire leadership circle wasn't killed alongside him. Honestly the Tau are as legitimate an army as any other in this hobby, they got fans who play them cause they are cool and like them and thus want their fluff to be about them winning and being awesome some of the time, as Imperial Players we don't have a monopoly on winning Narrative Campaigns. Again, I'm sorry, but I can't buy all this complaining about the Imperium losing to the Tau until someone can demonstrate that the Imperium hasn't already won virtually every narrative campaign in the setting. Until that time, when another faction gets to win a narrative campaign at last, good for them. Lets share the awesomeness rather than simply hogging it for one faction. The Tau's victories are still a drop in the ocean compared to Macragge, Ichar, Piscina, 2nd and 1st Armageddon, Pandorax, Damnos, Sanctus Reach to name but a few. The Imperium winning is so common a feature of this game that, to the entire fanbase, it has become predictable. Apparently so much so that I now see it is starting to be accepted as an inviolable part of the canon and any major loss (which to be fair Prefectia isn't even in the grand scheme of things very important) is considered unacceptable. A pity.

@RandomEvilGuy: Shadowsun's barely explicated wins against background threats don't interest me much. They are no different to the long, very long, list of threats and enemies Logan and Marneus and such have wiped out. The difference, I suppose, is that in Logan's case we got in depth information about them in his Great Company's Supplement and the myriad ways he outsmarted and defeated Orks, Chaos, Eldar not to mention beating Imotekh whilst not even setting out for that reason. I'll admit I think having Shadowsun credited with a Fleet victory was poor writing, totally agree with that, but I definitely haven't in fluff gained the impression she's anymore impressive than any other major 'genius' special character flying around in the setting who have huge lists of victory's to their names. People like Dante, Logan, Sicarius, Ragnar, Ventris, Ciaphas and such all have long lists of victories against all sorts of foes which I find no less or more impressive than Shadowsun's own list. On the other hand Shadowsun, in all major appearances till now, has tended to suck when the story revolved around her or, at best, is heavily undermined within the story when it focuses on her. From Agrellan and the need to have Ko'sarro constantly get the better of her to Aun'va's scolding and losing at Voltoris to Last of Kiru's Line having her multiple times be at the mercy of a simply Guardsman. Like I said before; imagine any Space Marine Special Character in their novel series and appearances having their major victory, in the book, be immediately followed by a military defeat or being at the mercy of a group of Chaos Cultists or Ork Boyz. Shadowsun is the headline character for her faction; the Logan, Swarmlord, Marneus, Dante or Eldrad, I'd prefer she kick as much ass as them.

I do agree I wish the Eldar would win battles though. I really, really feel sorry for my friends who play Eldar. Like I said this complaining about the Tau victory on Prefectia doesn't take into account perspective. The vast majority of factions beside the Imperium, and to a lesser extent recently the Tau, still do nothing but lose most of the time. If we are going to condemn it, sure fine, but then lets be fair about it and start with the biggest culprit before moving on to the Tau.

@1hadhq: Personally as a fan of the 40k background I felt it was quite in vogue for how they do things. Having read Sanctus Reach, Damnos and Pandorax this seemed no different to me. Unfortunately you are not the designated arbiter of quality in Warhammer 40k nor the appointed spokesperson of the entire fanbase so I hardly think you can make the call as to the overall significance of this to the entire community.

As an aside, again, the only reason Faction A or B wins is because GW chooses to. GW is running a game, a hobby, and the idea is to let players and members of this hobby enjoy themselves, all members off the hobby not just a specific clientele and group of players, that's what it comes down to.

Additionally championing 1 faction, I presume of course then you are referring to the Imperium from whence Marneus and Kaldor originally came? Additionally as Shadowsun fought a Daemon Primarch yet? An Avatar of Khaine? Been trapped in the Warp and personally attacked the domains of the four Chaos Gods within the Warp? I believe you are using Hyperbole here. Like I said if we are going to be upset at a faction being 'championed' then we shouldn't be hypocritical about it. The Imperium has been 'championed' far longer and more frequently than the Tau.

I'm not going to delve into your analysis of the setup, its riddled with assumptions like the 'Kroot and Vespid had to be developed further' and blatant statements which don't bear worth dealing in a story like 40k where all factions are far more monstrous and immoral than our own.

I did like what you pointed out about Damocles though. A pity you automatically assumed it had to be directed at the Tau rather than the fact that it could be referring to either them or the Imperium. But again, an assumption, your position here is clear.

Also I am baffled at having problems with Tau fighting the Imperium, Orks and Tyranids. You seem to imply that this is somehow wrong or that GW had an onus to show the Tau fighting other alien races. Yet...fighting the playable factions is virtually all anyone does. Obviously. Its a hobby and game with only a set number of playable factions. Of course they get far more attention and role in the plot.

Additionally the attempt to moralize here, imply Aun'va some kind of ultimate bad guy, or be upset that it was the Imperium and not Orks or Nids that got attacked is confusing. GW wants the Tau and the Imperium to fight. Thematically they are meant to mirror each other; a stagnant current empire against a dynamic new one. That's why parallels between the Tau and the Great Crusade are constantly drawn. GW wants the fight for thematic purposes (and since the GW wants its players to all be able to fight each other, hence every faction is given a reason to fight each other). You can feel its stupid, that's fine a lot of stuff in the setting is explicitly meant to be stupid, but that doesn't make it wrong or right or determine if it should have been done.

Also to even bring something like North Korea into it is, honestly, just not a viable comparison. What is KJU worth 'quality' the Guard's Uplifting Primer? But I won't delve further into that line, its just bound to lead to huge issues.

Also...so the Ethereals got a new power. Okay fine, its weird I'll grant, but what does it matter? You act as if its some kind of objective negative or degradation of the plotline. Its just a weird power, probably comparable to Commands, given to the Ethereals to give them utility as support figures. The warp has nothing to do with it.

Also I don't remember Cano'Var, the Adeptus Mechanicus defeat or the numerous defeats by the Space Wolves ever ending with the lines; 'but the Tau felt the loss was acceptable' it tended to just end with the defeat being explained. Then, further on that point, all losses suffered by factions in the current setting are 'acceptable' the Imperium doesn't at the end of their defeats have a section saying 'oh now, all has changed, the Imperium itself now is collapsing' not even the Eldar, who's survival is meant to be precarious, get little lines of each defeat saying how everything has changed. The game has a status quo, one of allowing all players to enjoy playing their army because it is fun and all players matter equally, the Tau defeats change as little their circumstances as do the defeats of the Imperium or any other faction. Calling out the Tau for this alone, again, is hypocritical.

Ultimately you seem to also just have a personal problems with the Ethereals. Much of this consisted purely of jokes aimed at them with little justification for the comparison. That's fine, obviously, I don't like the Chaos Gods or most Space Marines much, I prefer the Guard and Sisters, everyone can dislike who they want. But I don't really see the point for the discussion in bringing it up so much.

Ultimately who should win? As a general question? Preferably all factions will get to have wins.

All factions should have wins. All factions should have multiple wins against each other is what I think, but what I'm trying to say about this whole Tau vs Imperium thing, is that the Tau wins too much! It's acceptible when you have two races going back and fourth, constantly scrapping with each other, but until recently, any defeat the Tau suffered against their nemesis was either because it was all part of Shadow sun's plan, or it was such a small defeat/ battle that it doesn't matter or is just un interesting.

I feel like the Orks, and to an extent, the Tyranids, are two kind of "npc" factions. They're the races, especially orks, that other races can fight and win against constantly and it'll seem okay. Atleast in my opinion. The Tau, IoM, Eldar, Crons, are all the "playable characters," and because of that, I don't think anybody would want to read about their character repeteadly getting bullied by another character. So yeah, that's my other 25 cents on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.

If the Imperium could ever concentrate on just one enemy at a time, that enemy would be basically screwed. the tau are still pint sized as an empire, the necrons arent even awake yet, that and noone really likes anybody else int he galaxy.

@123ply: As I said I think you, and many other Imperium fans, are overreacting a bit. The Tau have, talking about Agrellan and Prefectia now, won 2 victories against the Imperium of import (itself a relative term since Agrellan and Prefectia are still considered highly unimportant by the Imperium at large. They cannot, for example, be compared to Cadia, Mars, Armageddon, Macragge or any Chapter Homeworld really). That is only 2 planets. That's pretty small in the grand scheme of things. For example I can give you two example where the Adeptus Mechanicus in their Codex claim a Tau World and where the Space Wolves do. Based on that we are 2 planets for 2 planets already. However Agrellan and Prefectia had narrative supplements dedicated to them, hence why it can appear as if the Tau are being incredibly successful, but in reality all that has happened in these narrative supplements is that the Imperium has not won (as it does in every single other narrative supplement it appears in). For example take away Agrellan and the Tau automatically have not got a single major victory against the Imperium and the Imperium loses its only recent significant defeat at all. As you, and many, have pointed out the next book will probably follow the incredibly predictable format of a Chapter with a Codex (Blood Angels, Dark Angels an Space Wolves) or the Ultramarines arriving and beating the Tau. As it has happened in every single narrative supplement other than Agrellan. I cannot stress this enough but, though I understand you dislike the Imperium losing, no one else comes close to winning as often as the Imperium at all. The Tau have conquered two planets. That's it. They weren't even confronted by enormous forces. Perspective is really necessary here particularly since it seems many Imperium players believe the reciprocal and fair course of the fluff to take after the Tau conquer 2 minor planets is for the entire Tau Empire to be removed or changed as a playable faction in the game with numerous fans who enjoy it.

Then, to perhaps help console you, the Tau have not suffered only 'minor' defeats. Voltoris is explicitly considered by the Tau a major and humiliating defeat. Even the 1st Damocles Crusade threw the Tau back all the way to their Septworlds. These are major defeats. Shadowsun's plans refers to 2 planets, again perspective is necessary since it isn't as prevalent as it appears, Agrellan and Prefectia. Additionally, as is repeated consistently, the next book will almost certainly have Shadowsun again lose and be pathetic so that Farsight can be demonstrated as superior to her in some capacity. Like Agrellan it is unlikely that Shadowsun will simply maintain her win record, Shadowsun almost always follows up a narrative victory with a major and humiliating defeat. She is not a Space Marine Chapter Master who will wipe out several Waaaghs, clever Eldar Plots and Chaos Warbands. She is doing well for the Tau, which seems only fair considering she's meant to be their top-tier character, but she still lags far behind the achievements of any Space Marine Chapter Master with a Model and numerous Imperium Main Characters in novels.

As for your comment on the Orks and Nids, well, of course you're welcome to it and I understand where you are coming from but I can say that as someone who has talked to a lot of Ork players, like my brother, it doesn't console you knowing your the 'NPC' faction who exists to make everyone else look cooler. Orks and Nids want awesome moments too, and moments where they can achieve lasting victories. Ghazghkull is a classic example of this since he's meant to be an intimidating and deadly enemy but, to be honest, he's only ever achieved on significant victory at all; Golgotha. Even against Leviathan he simply stopped Octarius being destroyed immediately, the Supplement makes clear that the battle will not be ending with an Ork victory. Compare this to the Imperium's destruction of 2 Major Hive Fleets already. More worryingly, to me, is that Golgotha is pretty much Ghazghkull's only claim to fame and...it was written out of his own supplement. Doesn't even get mentioned. So, to be honest, I can't agree with your position. Orks and Tyranids deserve to win campaigns and wars too (and for the love of the Emperor somebody let Ghazghkull win something).

Honestly, I think Agrellan and Prefectia are going to go right back to Imperial hands in the next book, and things are going to look Grim for the Tau Empire.

Which is when Farsight swoops in, stops the Crusade in it's tracks, and forces the Imperials to stop themselves from digging any deeper into Tau territory, and perhaps reclaiming a few worlds as the Imperials withdraw. Farsight is the returning hero of the Tau, and it causes tension within the Fire Caste as those who support the Mont'ka (Farsight) are at odds with those who prefer Kauyon (Shadowsun).

Though I could see the Imperials putting up a huge fight that the Tau probably wouldn't see as worth it over Agrellan and Prefectia if war came back to it.

I'm personally hoping, as a person who cheers for the Tau (whenever it isn't versus Imperials >.&gt that Farsight manages to orchestrate the death of Aun'va. Shake things up a bit, put the Greater Good more in the hands of the Earth, Water, FIre and Air castes rather than the holier than thou Ethereals.

Yeah I imagine that is what's going to happen, disappointing to since it'll effectively again make it that the Impreium can't lose anything and that no faction other than the Imperium can win lasting victories, talk about stuck in the status quo, it'll be literally a matter of saying; 'you know those two whole narrative supplements that surprised you? Well they're meaningless, Imperium wins anyway'. I'd dislike it but, as I've said, the Imperium winning is so predictable an outcome to anything in the setting that honestly I imagine that's how it's going to go. They might let the Tau keep Agrellan, since it's a Septworld now, but I doubt they'll keep Prefectia, that'd mean letting Shadowsun have a lasting victory in the narrative. A pity too since Shadowsun's only major triumph is going to serve purely to demonstrate how much better Farsight is. But yeah that is probably how it'll go.

Yeah I'm noticing a lot of dislike of the Tau is on Aun'va and Shadowsun. Honestly never bothered me, Ethereals fit with the Tau fluff, were there from the beginning, and Aun'va's only big crime I can see is that he talks about the Tau having a right to unite the Galaxy the way the Imperium talks about having a right to scour all non-human life from it. But as I said everyone's free to dislike who they want, I can't stand the Chais Gods and most named Space Marines.

Still depressing to think that we'll be back at the 'Imperium always wins' point soon. So much for giving another faction shine.

1hadhq wrote: Angkhor Prok IIRC in chapter approved they got this Kroot character.

Close enough, he was the Games Day miniature the year the Tau were released.

Animus wrote:

Not quite.

Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.

Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.

If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.

If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.

If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.

If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.

So the social justice warriors would be happy if the Imperium was losing? The narrative has to actively codemn the Imperium's governing system for it to be socially acceptable?

The Imperium is the way it is beacuse of the (grimdark) times. It's not like humanity didn't try to do better (Great Crusade and all that), it's just that everything went to hell and this is how the Imperium has managed to hang on. You still have individuals trying to do good (like in Gaunt's Ghosts and so on). That's where a lot of the appeal of the setting comes from. True heroes only arise in times of great adversity. It'd be a bit boring if the Imperium was super nice (and winning because its niceness).

And it's got nothing to do with corporate executives. The setting's always been this way. It's an eternity of war, not 10k years and then humanity loses. The galaxy's one big statemate between the factions trying to tear each other apart.

 Peregrine wrote:

123ply wrote:
The reason for the IoM's stance as a "dying race on the verge of collapse" blah blah blah, is because they are the supreme power of the universe.

They are no such thing. The Imperium is the weakest faction in the setting, and the only one with no hope of victory (except maybe the Eldar, depending on how you define victory). They're just so unimaginably huge that destroying them takes a long time. But that doesn't make them the supreme power, it just means they have a lot of dying to do.

That's the first time I've heard this assertion. The narrative disagrees. And that's a very odd definition of "weak." Not being able to win does not equal "weakest." And giving the Tau a better chance at victory in the setting is just plain unrealistic. Their goal is to spread to the Greater Good to the rest of the galaxy after all. Not. going. to. happen. And Tau dominating the Imperium? No, if the Imperium falls, it will have nothing to do with the Tau.

A moral discussion about Warhammer 40k, even though I really have things I'd like to say, is something I'll try just to ignore since I've been in enough discussions of morality on the net to know that it'll just be disturbing rather than interesting. Putting aside the idea that the Imperium can't change its ways or has to act absolutely in the manner it does, which is just not true, I'll focus on some factual points which are more easily engaged in;

The Great Crusade wasn't much better for anyone except humans who met the Imperium's criteria of 'human enough'. Reading the Horus Heresy I was even disappointed that instead of a Tau-like effort to engage with aliens peacefully and invite them into a confederation we have the Imperium be xenocidal from the very beginning and wipe out entire alien civilizations, and humans too, simply for their existence. The Great Crusade really wasn't much better for anyone who wasn't a 'good enough human' than now. The Imperium toasted entire alien and abhuman populations as a matter of course then and it still does now, back then it was simply more expansionistic. The Great Crusade, sadly, isn't even as nice as the Tau despite all their own failings and immoralities. At least the Tau were able to get allies and other aliens peacefully living alongside them such as the Kroot, Jia'trix, Demiurge, Nicassar and such. The Imperium even wiped out a democratic system just because the humans lived alongside aliens there, not the Interex there's another who's name I'm now forgetting who two of the Primarchs wiped out. So the Great Crusade was, sadly, not much better for anyone who the Imperium didn't consider 'human enough'. Disappointing too since I had hoped the Great Crusade would have been far more akin to the Tau Empire in behaviour, as prior discussions of the way in which they mirrored each other had implied. Tragically I suppose it was felt that having the focus of the Horus Heresy be on anything but humans would have been too distracting and thus we never see the Imperium attempt to confederate with alien races like the Tau do. I suppose Horus makes an attempt with the Interex but, by his own admission, only because the Imperium is now 'strong enough' to tolerate negotiations. He makes clear that it is only because of their dominant position that he will even deign it and his own men make clear that their preferred and standard response was simply to wipe out all life. Fulgrim's men make the same point later too.

Also, to be fair, these 'nicer' human heroes we speak of...I honestly still don't know any of them who've expressed any kind of opposition to the official state ideology of murder every baby, woman, invalid and non-combatant who isn't a human. So...nice is a very relative concept here.

After that, to be honest, one quote doesn't change the entire setting. There have been mountains of quotes in the past saying; 'mankind is doomed, all hope is lost, they are but a shadow of their former selves, a crumbling empire,' as I said before GW is not really good at consistency at all. That's just a fact. If we accept some fluff as canon we have to accept it all...which, yes, does mean we're often going to have to accept contradictory situations. The Imperium can both be at its greatest extent and its lowest extent, Orks can both be incapable of feeling fear and then in some Codexes and books very clearly feel fear and such and such. The important point is that one quote doesn't automatically invalidate all others. We have a clash of fluff. A common enough occurrence in 40k.

As for the last part, really, I just never got what was fun or enjoyable about going 'your faction sucks, mine rocks, your guys are weak and pathetic, mine dominate'. I like all the factions to be honest. All of them have fun aspects, all of them have cool aesthetics, and I respect that all of them have nice people playing them who deserve to be able to enjoy their game, including the fluff about their faction. The game doesn't exist to cater to the desires of a single group. But then again, like I said, I never got any fun out of putting other people's army's down as being 'insignificant' or such. I'd hope it'd be obvious that everyone has significance. Hence why we play with them and enjoy it. To feel cool and have a good time.

Also, to be fair, these 'nicer' human heroes we speak of...I honestly still don't know any of them who've expressed any kind of opposition to the official state ideology of murder every baby, woman, invalid and non-combatant who isn't a human. So...nice is a very relative concept here.

There are not any - even people like Cain and Amberley who are calm, pragmatic and relatively easy going still see nothing wrong with killing non humans, in fact they are reassured by seeing cadets using criminals as target practice / for practice interrogation and fondly recall a childhood where their picture books had heretics being burnt alive.

But that's the universe they live in - where they are the "nice guys"....

I did think it was interesting that Shadowsun's Ethereal master is (in the novels at least) increasingly portrayed as similar to corrupt Imperial Governors - arrogant, cowardly, self obsessed and unwilling to listen to advice from his underlings. He keeps pushing her buttons and perhaps Farsight may convert her to his side when the Tau civil war gets started.

It would be interesting to see a Tau Empire discovering quite how big the universe is, having to deal with more and more psykes and warp incursions, AI rebellions (especially if they get possessed), attention from truly deadly predators like the Necrons and more raids by the Dark Eldar.

Would they crumble and fragment or grow stronger......................

There's an already in place that could serve as catalyst for that. On the outskirts of the tau empire, on the edge of the galaxy, there is a place in the vacuum prone to warp invasion, to the point where there is a permanent air-caste presence their to stop it. It's old fluff, but it still checks out.

I thought so.

As for Aun'va, yeah, in the novels at least he is presented very negatively. To the point where, in all fairness, he comes across as an idiot. Shadowsun can literally be demolishing an entire enemy world and all he does is complain. Its a little frustrating, not cause he's a jerk that's fine, but that he's portrayed as incredibly idiotic. The Farsight Enclaves Supplement was a bit kinder to him, had Farsight realize that he's actually very wise and, though incredibly cold, very efficient in his plans. But the novels have him be kind of, as you say, a glory hog.

Personally nuanced depictions are far from common in the setting, so I don't expect them much, but Aun'va gets somewhat irritating to me too mostly because he's stupid. That he's an donkey-cave is fine, he oversees an expansionistic empire so he's always going to be an donkey-cave to an extent, but I get tired of how pointlessly dumb he is. I'd prefer a depiction as in the Farsight Enclaves of a highly patriotic and clever donkey-cave.

Hopefully Shadowsun can be written as not needing her male counterpart to save her or show her the way, I say hopefully because I'm already resigned to the fact that it will almost certainly happen, but hopefully she can achieve something lasting on her own eventually. Its really juvenile, I'm aware, but being a girl myself Sisters initially did definitely appeal to me because they were female. Shadowsun's probably the only female in the setting who can kick any kind of major ass right now and even then she's far from a Farsight or any named Imperium Hero.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.

If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.

If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.

I don't think it's a retcon. I never remember the Imperium at the time of the Horus Heresy being so large as half of all inhabitable worlds.
Anyway, the Imperium might do a lot of dark and crazy stuff but then the galaxy is a dark and crazy place.
I always thought this quote summed up the age of the Imperium beautifully. "In an hour of Darkness a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity look to the madman to lead the way."
And who cares about what a bunch of social justice warriors with too much free time think?

Don't get down on the Sisters, Anemone

We are literally the only faction that is consistently only shown fighting against insanely overwhelming enemy forces.

Grey Knights get a daemonic incursion, but they match the scary daemons toe to toe.

Guardsmen get a Tyranid hiveship limping after a huge battle.

Space Marines get a Tau hunter-cadre.

Sisters... get a whole Tyranid hive fleet. Or a fully awakened Necron tomb world. Or are a single convent against an entire planet's worth of Chaos marines.

No other army consistently faces the same insane odds in their battles. The only reason Sisters don't seem capable of kicking major arse is because they're constantly facing odds that would make Grey Knights wet themselves.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

123ply wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.

No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade.

Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).

As an Imperial fan boy , I hate you and will disregard everything you said.

I'm kidding. I don't hate you but I can honestly say I consider my self an IoM fanboy. I really don't think that we would have been stopped on Dy'lath, I really do think the Imperium would have won. Based in what I read from the Warhammer wiki, it seemed like we still had more juice to go before we were to be stopped, but then again, the Tau did not yet have counters to some of our things like titans and super heavies as you said. The Tau now have crazy riptides, and the Stormsurge is defiantly going to waste a lot of armour everywhere they're mentioned. Because of inferiority if the Tau if you compared them then to now, I think the guard would have eventually pushed through Dy'lath. Though I could say things would have been different if that battle were to have taken place in current times where the Tau have developed immensely...

But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore. We had so much trouble taking out crisis suits, now those guys have riptides and giant ghost battlesuits I can't see the Imperium winning anymore. Sure we outnumber you like 50 to 1, but we're stretched so thinly and ha e so much more to deal with that there would be never enough manpower to shred the Tau cheese. The only way to win is if GW and BL writers didn't underpowered the Guard. I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.

I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be. I want to see Leman Russe withstand missles and rail guns like they should. I want to see Autocannon and missle launchers actually damage battlesuits like they should, and our infantry being, I don't know, infantry? And not just men who shoot at the air and get killed by it.

Such a rant, but if the Guard can wreck the Eldar constantly, along with just about every other race (except Tyranids. Tyranids will always kill the gak out of us but that's acceptable imo.) What makes the Tau impervious to losing?

Pehaps they could have continued, but they wouldn't have got very far. Look where Dal'yth is in the tau empire.

Spoiler:

You would still have the vast majority of tau space to push trhough. Now this map is a bit bigger than what it was back then (this is mid-3rd, versus dal'yth which was late 2nd(?), but you get the picture.

It did, however, show something very important about the imperium. How much they underestimated the tau. They thought that crusade could kill the tau, but all that crusade's fighting was focused mainly in a single sept. It also shows how unprepared the tau were for an attack of that ferocity. They were used to dealing with local alien presence, an orks. They had never faced an enemy of that magnitude.

Looking at that chart I see a star lane running from Dal'ynth to the Tau homeworld with no intervening planets or defenses. So, the next battle would have been on the Tau version of Holy Terra, when they were already reeling from the Imperial onslaught. When Marine Dudes are running around you're home, capital planet and some Ordo Xeno guy in orbit is polishing the Exterminatus ordinance, I think that's a pretty bad day, even if you're the Tau.

I don't get how people are concluding that humanity is not the dominate race in the universe. The only reason the IOM has so many problems is because as the biggest and most united galaxy spanning empire that they have to deal with everyone wanting a piece of them. Being so big and based largely on planets they are constantly on the defensive.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't get how people are concluding that humanity is not the dominate race in the universe. The only reason the IOM has so many problems is because as the biggest and most united galaxy spanning empire that they have to deal with everyone wanting a piece of them. Being so big and based largely on planets they are constantly on the defensive.

That is exactly what I've been trying to say, and it's turns out that 1d4 Chan or whatever agrees too.

So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!

 Formosa wrote:
So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!

With the speed the Tau is advancing, it's not impossible for them to become the next super powers of the galaxy. I cam totally see them winning the great war of 40k but it'll be hard for them because of their numbers. Thing is though, the Tau are populating more and more world's as we know it and getting more and more powerful for each passing battle.

If one of the bigger factions put they're weight on them, they could be crushed, but it's hard for more other contenders to do that, unlike the Tau themselves who can actually go almost full force because of their small borders and minimal amount of territory and world's to contend for. And as for the chaos gods- maybe, but chaos had been trying for a pretty long time to take down humanity and, although are slowly crippling them, are getting beaten back regularly. Check out the famous cadian quote where a cadian or Inquisition (?) Claims he/she stops 10p active chaos cults a day. Most of the chaos incursions are small, insignificant cults that huddle around in a hood who commit blaspheme for whatever their personal reasons. I always imagined most chaos cults to be like an aggressive street gang, while the bigger ones are like the bloods or crops facing off against the police, or the Gators I'm Toronto, who were known to be pretty damn violent, when they were still terrorizing the city

So It's unlikely they can win, but it's certainly not impossible.

 Anemone wrote:


@RandomEvilGuy: Shadowsun's barely explicated wins against background threats don't interest me much. They are no different to the long, very long, list of threats and enemies Logan and Marneus and such have wiped out. The difference, I suppose, is that in Logan's case we got in depth information about them in his Great Company's Supplement and the myriad ways he outsmarted and defeated Orks, Chaos, Eldar not to mention beating Imotekh whilst not even setting out for that reason. I'll admit I think having Shadowsun credited with a Fleet victory was poor writing, totally agree with that, but I definitely haven't in fluff gained the impression she's anymore impressive than any other major 'genius' special character flying around in the setting who have huge lists of victory's to their names. People like Dante, Logan, Sicarius, Ragnar, Ventris, Ciaphas and such all have long lists of victories against all sorts of foes which I find no less or more impressive than Shadowsun's own list. On the other hand Shadowsun, in all major appearances till now, has tended to suck when the story revolved around her or, at best, is heavily undermined within the story when it focuses on her. From Agrellan and the need to have Ko'sarro constantly get the better of her to Aun'va's scolding and losing at Voltoris to Last of Kiru's Line having her multiple times be at the mercy of a simply Guardsman. Like I said before; imagine any Space Marine Special Character in their novel series and appearances having their major victory, in the book, be immediately followed by a military defeat or being at the mercy of a group of Chaos Cultists or Ork Boyz. Shadowsun is the headline character for her faction; the Logan, Swarmlord, Marneus, Dante or Eldrad, I'd prefer she kick as much ass as them.

I do agree I wish the Eldar would win battles though. I really, really feel sorry for my friends who play Eldar. Like I said this complaining about the Tau victory on Prefectia doesn't take into account perspective. The vast majority of factions beside the Imperium, and to a lesser extent recently the Tau, still do nothing but lose most of the time. If we are going to condemn it, sure fine, but then lets be fair about it and start with the biggest culprit before moving on to the Tau.

I can't help but notice that you listed a number of Space Marines and then Cain. Space Marines are widely ridiculed for having an excessive number of victories. Cain is a part of a not entirely serious series of books (and many would say that what occurs is badly written in them too). Space Marines, at least, are the elite of the elite of the Imperium. The Chapter Masters have centuries of experience. By contrast Shadowsun has precious little experience. Short periods between being put back into stasis (which realistically should be a drawback considering changing circumstances against even the Imperium). Most Space Marine characters aren't even portrayed as being great in, well, space as they should (considering they should do better there than on the ground). Whereas Shadowsun excels at both apparently. Her being outwitting by a Space Marine isn't really a drawback. Her being at the mercy of a Guardsman I have not read and would appreciate some quotation on if possible.

Either way, the problem seems to stem from how people view the Imperium. Space Marines are expected to do well. If they didn't they'd die out fast. They are, however, over portrayed. Most on this forum I think would agree with that. Aside from from the situation you have talked about however I have not heard of the Imperial Guard having the advantage over the Tau. This I would put at my main point actually. Space Marines are used too much by GW and by BL. As such the Imperium has an exaggerated number of wins. Take them away and the Tau seem to walk over the Imperium. I know the Imperial Guard are often defeated to make others (especially Space Marines) look better but it's still an issue I feel.

There's also the problem that the Tau method of absorbing other species', especially Humans, has not been elaborated on. If they don't do Psyker culls then they'd face dire peril as an example.

AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.

I highly doubt it.

There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.