Post game analysis: Raven Guard Strike Force vs. Tau Hunter Contingent

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**notredameguy10**

Reecius wrote:
@Frozocrone

He has been kicking my ass with his Battle Company, lately! Lol Although, he did lose 2 games to KDK with a VSG, just shut his Grav down.

He went 3-0 at the last tournament we went to with Double Stormsurge Tau, too, so he's been on a roll.

@Naw

Ah. I actually like the Firewarriors, but I like the models a lot, too. If you're all Suits then I think Mont'Ka, all the way.

He's running Double Surges in a unit, 2 Riptides, 2x2 Missilesides, Dronemander and Drones, and 3x5 Firewarriors. He's done REALLY well with it, but is looking to swap out to a CAD+Drone Formation.

I actually haven't had a chance to play the Pirhana formation yet but it looks cool. InControl played against it with his War Convocation, and was very impressed with how good it was. I look forward to giving it a go, myself.

Question. Based on strict ITC rules, you really are not allowed to run a Heavy Retribution Cadre even though it is directly in the codex? Since it is 2 separate stormsurges rather than 1 squad of 2? Seems kinda weird.

**jy2**

notredameguy10 wrote:
Reecius wrote:
@Frozocrone

He has been kicking my ass with his Battle Company, lately! Lol Although, he did lose 2 games to KDK with a VSG, just shut his Grav down.

He went 3-0 at the last tournament we went to with Double Stormsurge Tau, too, so he's been on a roll.

@Naw

Ah. I actually like the Firewarriors, but I like the models a lot, too. If you're all Suits then I think Mont'Ka, all the way.

He's running Double Surges in a unit, 2 Riptides, 2x2 Missilesides, Dronemander and Drones, and 3x5 Firewarriors. He's done REALLY well with it, but is looking to swap out to a CAD+Drone Formation.

I actually haven't had a chance to play the Pirhana formation yet but it looks cool. InControl played against it with his War Convocation, and was very impressed with how good it was. I look forward to giving it a go, myself.

Question. Based on strict ITC rules, you really are not allowed to run a Heavy Retribution Cadre even though it is directly in the codex? Since it is 2 separate stormsurges rather than 1 squad of 2? Seems kinda weird.

It's an ITC houserule that was in place long before this formation came out. If you want to change it, you should submit it as a request, though the ITC crowd has been so entrenched with the 1 LoW unit (with the exception of a Knight army) that I don't really see it changing for a whiles anyways.

BTW this is not new. By RAW, an Eldar army can run multiple Wraithknights and a KDK army can run multiple Kytans.....just not in the ITC.

**notredameguy10**

jy2 wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
Reecius wrote:
@Frozocrone

He has been kicking my ass with his Battle Company, lately! Lol Although, he did lose 2 games to KDK with a VSG, just shut his Grav down.

He went 3-0 at the last tournament we went to with Double Stormsurge Tau, too, so he's been on a roll.

@Naw

Ah. I actually like the Firewarriors, but I like the models a lot, too. If you're all Suits then I think Mont'Ka, all the way.

He's running Double Surges in a unit, 2 Riptides, 2x2 Missilesides, Dronemander and Drones, and 3x5 Firewarriors. He's done REALLY well with it, but is looking to swap out to a CAD+Drone Formation.

I actually haven't had a chance to play the Pirhana formation yet but it looks cool. InControl played against it with his War Convocation, and was very impressed with how good it was. I look forward to giving it a go, myself.

Question. Based on strict ITC rules, you really are not allowed to run a Heavy Retribution Cadre even though it is directly in the codex? Since it is 2 separate stormsurges rather than 1 squad of 2? Seems kinda weird.

It's an ITC houserule that was in place long before this formation came out. If you want to change it, you should submit it as a request, though the ITC crowd has been so entrenched with the 1 LoW unit (with the exception of a Knight army) that I don't really see it changing for a whiles anyways.

BTW this is not new. By RAW, an Eldar army can run multiple Wraithknights and a KDK army can run multiple Kytans.....just not in the ITC.

I understand that, but the wraithknght really isn't a "formation" as you are just taking one model per formation and it gets no special rules. Heavy Retribution Cadre has 2 special rules and requires three separate units of guys. Doesn't seem right to just disallow an entire formation, especially since you are allowed to take up to 3 stormsurges in one unit any who... and this could be 2 units of 1 SS (would have to disallow taking more than 1 per squad I agree).

**jy2**

Doesn't matter if it's a formation or not. The ITC restriction still stands unless it gets lifted/voted off.

Start campaigning if you want to run it. Submit it in as a request and get your Tau friends to do the same. If enough people cry out for it, you might possibly see it in the next Poll.

**bogalubov**

jy2 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's a formation or not. The ITC restriction still stands unless it gets lifted/voted off.

Start campaigning if you want to run it. Submit it in as a request and get your Tau friends to do the same. If enough people cry out for it, you might possibly see it in the next Poll.

And if it gets approved, get ready to have your Storm Surges punched by 5 Wraith Knights.

**notredameguy10**

bogalubov wrote:
jy2 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's a formation or not. The ITC restriction still stands unless it gets lifted/voted off.

Start campaigning if you want to run it. Submit it in as a request and get your Tau friends to do the same. If enough people cry out for it, you might possibly see it in the next Poll.

And if it gets approved, get ready to have your Storm Surges punched by 5 Wraith Knights.

Again, like i mentioned previously, this is an entirely different situation. The wraithkinight isn't a true formation. It is a single model with no additional benefits that is an axillary choice. Heavy Retribution Cadre requires 2 stormsurges and 1 unit of ghostkeel and gets 2 different special rules for the formation. Apples and Oranges. Besides the fact that you can only take 1 duplicate formation with ITC any who.

**jy2**

Just to clarify, but the WK isn't considered a formation. It is just a detachment unit, same as Flayed Ones in a Decurion detachment or Soul Grinders in a KDK detachment (with the only difference being that it is a LoW detachment unit). So theoretically, you can run up to I believe 10 WK's in the Eldar-specific detachment with the only restrictions being the maximum number of points allowed and any houserule restrictions like the ITC.

If more formations were to come out in the future like the Retribution Cadre, then the ITC will be forced to deal with it (meaning vote on it). But as of now, it's up to the player-base to bring it to their attention as allowing it would be the exception instead of the norm in the ITC format.

**bogalubov**

notredameguy10 wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
jy2 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's a formation or not. The ITC restriction still stands unless it gets lifted/voted off.

Start campaigning if you want to run it. Submit it in as a request and get your Tau friends to do the same. If enough people cry out for it, you might possibly see it in the next Poll.

And if it gets approved, get ready to have your Storm Surges punched by 5 Wraith Knights.

Again, like i mentioned previously, this is an entirely different situation. The wraithkinight isn't a true formation. It is a single model with no additional benefits that is an axillary choice. Heavy Retribution Cadre requires 2 stormsurges and 1 unit of ghostkeel and gets 2 different special rules for the formation. Apples and Oranges. Besides the fact that you can only take 1 duplicate formation with ITC any who.

The overall question is how many units of LoW are going to be allowed in the ITC. So to allow two separate Storm Surges, the 0-1 unit restriction needs to be lifted. That in turn would allow an avalanche of Wraith Knights.

As Jy2 points out, the Wraith Knight isn't a formation but a unit choice, so the triplicate formation ban wouldn't affect it.

**notredameguy10**

bogalubov wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
jy2 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's a formation or not. The ITC restriction still stands unless it gets lifted/voted off.

Start campaigning if you want to run it. Submit it in as a request and get your Tau friends to do the same. If enough people cry out for it, you might possibly see it in the next Poll.

And if it gets approved, get ready to have your Storm Surges punched by 5 Wraith Knights.

Again, like i mentioned previously, this is an entirely different situation. The wraithkinight isn't a true formation. It is a single model with no additional benefits that is an axillary choice. Heavy Retribution Cadre requires 2 stormsurges and 1 unit of ghostkeel and gets 2 different special rules for the formation. Apples and Oranges. Besides the fact that you can only take 1 duplicate formation with ITC any who.

The overall question is how many units of LoW are going to be allowed in the ITC. So to allow two separate Storm Surges, the 0-1 unit restriction needs to be lifted. That in turn would allow an avalanche of Wraith Knights.

As Jy2 points out, the Wraith Knight isn't a formation but a unit choice, so the triplicate formation ban wouldn't affect it.

you are missing the point Retribution Cadre is one formation with 2 stormsurges. That is a completely different situation than taking multiple wraith knights as individual model choices.

**Fragile**

Reecius wrote:

But joking aside, I am sorry you don't agree with the ITC ruling, however, instead of ranting and railing at me, please consider that the decision was a community decision and that a majority of people did not want to go with the more aggressive interpretation of the Coordinated Firepower rule. .......

I dont play Tau, but I think it was a poor decision to prenerf something without even seeing it in action. I find your Dev pinning vs a VSG far more "broken". I think any new codex rules should at least be played for 2-3 months in Tournament action to see what happens to the meta before arbitrarily claiming something is too broken, else Skyhammer should be greatly nerfed.

**notredameguy10**

Fragile wrote:
Reecius wrote:

But joking aside, I am sorry you don't agree with the ITC ruling, however, instead of ranting and railing at me, please consider that the decision was a community decision and that a majority of people did not want to go with the more aggressive interpretation of the Coordinated Firepower rule. .......

I dont play Tau, but I think it was a poor decision to prenerf something without even seeing it in action. I find your Dev pinning vs a VSG far more "broken". I think any new codex rules should at least be played for 2-3 months in Tournament action to see what happens to the meta before arbitrarily claiming something is too broken, else Skyhammer should be greatly nerfed.

Too bad anything at all related to precious space marines will never get nerfed as the votes are all popular decision. Only minority xenos armies will be nerfed.

**Frozocrone**

Skyhammer was nerfed, you can't attach beatstick characters to the assault marines and charge, despite it being RAW (it's amazing how applicable 'counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes' crops up time and time again

**DirtyDeeds**

Multiple super heavies in a single formation are becoming more common. The Mont'Ka book allows three Bane blade variants in one formation for AM.

**Fragile**

Frozocrone wrote:
Skyhammer was nerfed, you can't attach beatstick characters to the assault marines and charge, despite it being RAW (it's amazing how applicable 'counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes' crops up time and time again

That's not a nerf to Skyhammer, that's a rules interpretation. Tau was nerfed because it seemed like it would be way to powerful. Skyhammer was left alone, even though everyone though it was going to be game changing powerful. All those special abilities with no downside. There's no consistently in how ITC rules on such abilities.

**Median Trace**

Popular Vote will never be a good way to adjucate game design.
Also, there is a lot of power in getting to decide what gets voted on and not.