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BobtheConquistador wrote:
One thing is for sure is that they cant kill off Warhammer Fantasy seeing that at least three major games have been released, one of them from the legendary Creative Assembly

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I wouldn't rule out the old world coming back in some fashion, it would be a mistake to do it anytime soon, as it would compete directly with AoS - not just in terms of models, but in terms of lore and mindshare. Kind of like how 40k and 30k coexist, with 30k being aimed at the more fluff orientated fans, the old world could come back as a companion to AoS. But probably not until AoS either succeeds or fails on its own merits. And if AoS fails, I'm almost certain we are more likely to see AoS 2.0 (Age of Archaon?) than a return to WHFB and the old world.

They are doing a decent job of building the story as time goes on for AoS. I don't think it will be retconned, no. I mean, the Lizardmen disappeared, but they were brought back and rebranded as Seraphon with new stories and new campaigns. So, I think that'll be the way things are done from now on.

SG

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:


I agree. If what people have said about fantasy doing so badly sales-wise is true, there's no way there going to go back to it. If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.

They can't go back to WHFB in the terrible state that they left it in. If they fixed the horrible mess that they made and redesigned the game, putting some actual effort into the game design process, from first principles then that would be a different story.

If they bought back WHFB they'd have to accommodate all those circle bases or all the people who ran out to buy Sigmarines would be pissed.

The problem with Fantasy was the high model count required to play. It was also convoluted, the rulebook was too long, the games went to long and there wasn't much balance. It was cool, but these factors just basically made it unappealing to new players. What they should have done was kept "warhammer" (Block formations etc) but released good, streamlined rules, new factions/units with innovative/interesting rules, more flexible force organisation, faster play and encourage the game to be played at much smaller model counts, and release really nice models. (what any sane company that does basic market research would do).

That way gamers give them money, and hobbyists give them money. They make lots of $$$$$$$$.

Instead they gave us a game with no tactical depth that involves pushing models into a center of a table and rolling dice.

I prefer the gameplay of AoS to fantasy, but "high fantasy" isn't the best IMO. I finished reading Ghal Maraz last night and it was entertaining. The thing is it is hard to feel dramatic tension when anything can happen from any celestial being at any given moment. I for one really enjoyed reading The End Times. There was a sense of urgency, a sense of loss, it had ups, downs, twists, turns, accelerated corners and abrupt stops. With high fantasy, it's high speed, but it ONLY HAS ONE SPEED, so the reader loses the thrill.

I am a patient man and will continue buying the books, Rome wasn't built in a day. I don't mourn the loss of setting of Fantasy, I enjoy watching a new one being created. (Even if it occasionally makes me raise an eyebrow or roll my eyes)

 ServiceGames wrote:
They are doing a decent job of building the story as time goes on for AoS. I don't think it will be retconned, no. I mean, the Lizardmen disappeared, but they were brought back and rebranded as Seraphon with new stories and new campaigns. So, I think that'll be the way things are done from now on.

SG

Yes, the story is very inventive. I enjoy reading about the Realm storms and the Blood Gates and the Prime Judicators and Blood Guys fight over realms. But I have one problem. Not nearly enough of the following three words. Blood, Realm and Gate.

I hope not.

With a retcon, there is a strong possibility that they would try to incorporate sigmarines into Old World, ruining it in the process. Even if not, creative-wise GW lost it already and the models would probably get only more and more videogamey. So no, it's better dead but with some dignity preserved.

What they should do imo is offer 8th edition rulebook with army books, some errata/faq and square bases. Or maybe write just new rules, no fluff.

I don't see a problem with the setting being destroyed, in fact playing in a doomed world only adds to the grimdark heh.

What's retcon....

 chiefbigredman wrote:
What's retcon....

Retroactive continuity. Going back on established events. Doing a U-turn. Airbrushing the past. Bobby Ewing in the shower. Greedo shot first.

 Vermis wrote:
Greedo shot first.

Why... why did you do this??

They might redo the rules set to address the major complaints, but it'll never look like WHFB again(maybe closer to 40k). Or they might kill off Fantasy altogether. But if it does survive, new rules or not, there won't be a retcon. AoS is the fantasy world whether they change the rules or not and the old world isn't coming back.

GW could simply announce WHFB 9th edition and fix their error very quickly.
Or they could surprise everyone by releasing the rest of the 8th edition army books as if nothing ever happened.

Personally, I like AoS, but there are many that don't. I reckon it's doomed, but GWs stubborness knows no bounds. That's just my 2 cents. Ill be fine if 40k still exists, and GW isnt gonna get rid of 40k anytime soon

the thirteenth praetorian wrote:
Personally, I like AoS, but there are many that don't. I reckon it's doomed, but GWs stubborness knows no bounds. That's just my 2 cents. Ill be fine if 40k still exists, and GW isnt gonna get rid of 40k anytime soon

Unless of course Age of the Emperor happens...

 jonolikespie wrote:

the thirteenth praetorian wrote:
Personally, I like AoS, but there are many that don't. I reckon it's doomed, but GWs stubborness knows no bounds. That's just my 2 cents. Ill be fine if 40k still exists, and GW isnt gonna get rid of 40k anytime soon

Unless of course Age of the Emperor happens...

Tick, tock, goes the clock...

GW should retcon/return to regular Warhammer, and just fix the rules for 9th. Clear out some cretins and fix the army lists, it is easy to achieve.

However doing so will admit making a mistake. Pride, stubborn pride will prevent them from fixing Warhammer as it does for 40K.
I have spoken to enough insiders in GW to know they all know the studio is broken, but none wants to admit they screwed the pooch.

I voted yes but I know it is a no. But in a world of ghost lizards robot iron men floating on wired wings endless hordes of people who do nothing but kill.... And i guess screw. There is always a way.

I could see them ditching AoS as a brand if they think it failed and switching back to Warhammer 9th edition.. though it would still be the new world with Sigmarines and all, and probably play more like 40k.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Why... why did you do this??

Don't you read any of my posts on Dakka?

Retconned... I dunno. If AoS fails and they canned WFB for being a failure, I can see this as the death of fantasy games at GW. All hopes will be pinned on 40K and it's own slipping player base. Then it'll be a case of seeing if they can tune the product and reverse the decline, or if they continue to flop around like a confused carp and go "falling sales... er... um... raise prices! Make rules wonkier!"

The specialist studio announcement is an interesting one. I don't think that'll do very much to turn GW's fortunes 180° in itself, or even provide comprehensive support for the returning games; but it's an indication of some kind of attitude change at GW, and possibly an indication of what could happen down the line. If Specialist Games make a comeback over ten years after they were declared 'failures' and 'counterproductive', what about WFB? Will people still have their old block units in the attic? Will future gamers, with their hoverboards and silver space-suits, decide to give this strange old 'Warhammer' game a try with their Kings of War armies?

(Akshullee, I'm a bit sceptical that Mantic will be around in even five years, but that's besides the point...)

 Necros wrote:
I could see them ditching AoS as a brand if they think it failed and switching back to Warhammer 9th edition.. though it would still be the new world with Sigmarines and all, and probably play more like 40k.

I'd say that's mostly likely if there's a big change. They won't recon the fluff, but I think rules changes are likely. New rules somewhere between AoS and 40k(and 40k moving to similar simplified rules one day). Maybe even keep the the current rules as special quick skirmish rules(I actually really like them for that purpose)

 Vermis wrote:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Why... why did you do this??

Don't you read any of my posts on Dakka?

Retconned... I dunno. If AoS fails and they canned WFB for being a failure, I can see this as the death of fantasy games at GW. All hopes will be pinned on 40K and it's own slipping player base. Then it'll be a case of seeing if they can tune the product and reverse the decline, or if they continue to flop around like a confused carp and go "falling sales... er... um... raise prices! Make rules wonkier!"

The specialist studio announcement is an interesting one. I don't think that'll do very much to turn GW's fortunes 180° in itself, or even provide comprehensive support for the returning games; but it's an indication of some kind of attitude change at GW, and possibly an indication of what could happen down the line. If Specialist Games make a comeback over ten years after they were declared 'failures' and 'counterproductive', what about WFB? Will people still have their old block units in the attic? Will future gamers, with their hoverboards and silver space-suits, decide to give this strange old 'Warhammer' game a try with their Kings of War armies?

(Akshullee, I'm a bit sceptical that Mantic will be around in even five years, but that's besides the point...)

I know, and I like most of your posts :p

Honestly, GW should just buy Mantic and say "Oi, you lot - fix up WHFB, gits!".

Win/win.

No, I don't think they will. I want them to, but I think Games Workshop is just too arrogant and out of touch with their fanbase to do so.

To retcon a change of this magnitude would be to admit massive fault, and have to explain that fault to the customers who invested in Age of Sigmar. Furthermore they'd have to work on fixing the true problem that led to WHFB's demise: cost. And we all know that won't happen.

I honestly think if GW released points values for AoS to bring some sort of balance to the game it would do better. I enjoy playing the game (although only with Azyr Comp rules). I think even casual players reading the rules were like WTF. Not that GW does a great job with balance to begin with, but they basically made no effort at all.

That said, I hate that they blew up the old world. The End Times was some of the most fun playing a tabletop game in a long time, and I really miss the WHFB system. I still play 8th edition with some close friends, but it's hard when my local Meta has either lost all the other WHFB players, and AoS is only played when an Azyr comp tournament gets organized (versus 40k where weekends are pickup game central).

If they just publish some point values for the AoS models I can see the game picking up steam.

Kohala wrote:
I have to believe that with the success of Vermintide and the most likely upcoming success of Total War: Warhammer, which is also set in the old world, they are going to have a hard time having a model range NOT set in that world.

I fail to see how this is correlated at all. You might see a few gamers who pick up table-top miniatures as a result of these games but it is very unlikely.

I'd say no, it'll probably be put out to pasture like the Hobbit after a year or two.

To be honest I just can't see how it can survive with little to no retail or gaming presence, I haven't seen the game played outside of demo games in my local GW since probably early to mid September and most of the local stores where dumping there AOS stock into the bargin bins last week.

I thought they might seen as sales were dwindling to a rather serious level and even clubs have just one or two die hard I won't let this ship sink fans and everyone else gave up. So yeah I thought someone at GW would be like ok guys time to refocus lets give the people what they need which isn't more fiction books on AoS but actual stuff they need to play better.

Then they sort of just slowly and shamefully pushed lizardmen back into things in the most boring simplistic lame way possible and now im just thinking AoS was a quick cash grab like dreadfleet or the hobbit and now they're reluctantly forced to still release stuff back out for it when is obvious GW has stopped caring already. Giving us the armies back with different names feels more like a requirement rather than them really wanting to make it work like gw's "do we have to?"

Nah its clear from the start GW wanted to phase out fantasy all together to make room for just 40k so instead of just getting rid in one go they made a half attempted game that divided the players and made everything so forced and pained that eventually nobody will care if they get rid all together.

Lol. GW are obviously in for the long haul with AoS. If they were phasing out Fantasy they wouldn't have devoted the entire summer to it, neglecting 40k.

Seraphon were given a quick rerelease because they already fit with AoS's new aesthetic and design direction. Other factions need to be brought up to speed and now we've got leaked sprues from the upcoming slayers.

GW are putting a lot of effort into AoS.

So they? I'd have thought that AoS would be a great time to update the lizardmen aesthetic, remove the Aztec elements to take them away from the D&D ones they are based on, and give them their own culture rather than just rip out the historic one and slap humans in lizard suits.

I see the whole 'summoned memories' thing as a cheap way to avoid having to update the line and change it, something that worries me because if future armies do not change either then what the hell was the point of AoS?

The point of AoS?

I think it was to give things a big shake. Catch the eyes of 40k players in store rather than it being the same-old-same-old of the WHFB release cycle. Also to cater to new customers rather than vets who already have large expansive armies.

They also wanted to make everything as IP protectable and as trademarkable as possible (Lizardmen just needed a new name, the elves and dwarves need more work in that regard).

At the same time they wanted to shoehorn in the successes of 40k - I.e. Space Marines, an expansive universe, a mythical history that can later be tapped into like 30k.

Lastly, they wanted an introduction game with simplified rules that they could offer for free and as a gateway to the hobby. Especially for the Father-and-son demographic GW now has.

Oh and they wanted to cut costs by ceasing to make square bases.

Throw that all in the blender and viola!

Age of Sigmar

It remains to be seen if any of that will work, though.

Exactly. I absolutely agree that all of those points where the 'point' of AoS.

But changing the name does nothing for IP protection, given that Aztec lizards are not a GW invention. Changing the models could have fixed that by introducing a unique look to them.

You are not shaking up anything if you change the fluff but no models.