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2015/11/18 07:01:03
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
1) GW changes the rules for Epic, making it not worth playing, OR...
2) GW tweaks the scale for the game, making previous collections obsolete, OR...
3) FW begins producing expansions/new models, but they're expensive, OR...
There are existing precedents for all of the above.
Indeed there are however in the assumption that GW have finally started to takes its pants off its head perhaps they will actually produce a game with good value for money this time?
Pacific wrote: A point I would like to raise, something I don't think has been mentioned yet, concerning the new Specialist Games.
I asked a question in a thread about AoS, asking who was writing the rules?
An answer I got from someone was a nonchalant shrug and 'GW design studio'.
I think that speaks volumes. Yes these games will have a GW logo on the box, but who is going to write the updated versions of these rules, and I have to ask the serious question is GW still capable of it with the talent that they have in-house right now, beyond Jervis Johnson?
Back in the 90's a lot of the guys writing the specialist games had been cutting their teeth for years on development of new rules for different games and we've heard from those people what a hotbed the company was of creativity. The proof really is in how good some of those games were and how the are so popular still now. But we've heard also now how that has changed, and really what have the rule writers of this current generation worked on to improve their craft? Because I don't consider making 0.1 design revisions to a new codex or army book, or even the small changes between game editions, as actual game design but more of just an adjustment.
You have to look back at Dreadfleet, which to me felt like it had some good ideas at its core but was then murdered by committee, or most recently AoS which is a wargame only in the sense that 4 pages of rules can be. I know there is some pretty good stuff with player comp going on for that game, but that isn't the point in terms of giving you confidence of a well designed game system or something that people can really get their teeth into.
So is a new Necromunda likely to be as well designed as Infinity, which had the creators playtesting for 4 years to achieve a balance and (I don't think it's OTT to say this) is practically a work of art with it's intricacies? Or will a new BFG match Andy Chambers' Dropfleet Commander, who has made that game with 20+ years of games writing experience? Will a new Bloodbowl match Jake Thornton's Dreadball? I could go on.
I know this won't matter to everyone, especially if you just want to push around some 6mil miniatures within your favourite sci-fi universe, but I think for a lot of us who want good games to play it's an extremely important question. It's not enough to throw money at something and make it good, but I wonder how GW will make these games 'special' without bringing in some outside talent, especially considering that any game design (and this has been the achilles heel of GW's releases for the last decade) must prompt their customers to continuously invest in the latest releases.
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in any case. Let's hope that, even if the new releases don't quite hit the mark in terms of mechanics, that GW perseveres with it. Let their creative guys learn how to make games and perhaps ultimately make games that are worthy of GW's evocative licences.
Excellent post.
I honestly believe the game design talent at GW has long departed, and the likeliest outcome for this new SG range, will be GW dusting off the original rules, and then dazzling us with new miniatures in the hope that nobody notices it's the same ruleset from years ago
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/11/18 10:16:51
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Even if X-wing ships are expensive, and FFGs Star Wars character minis are very expensive, the games allow you to get away with buying them in cheap bites, and they actually have major in-game effects. And they're still not asking £18 for a single-pose 28mm model. Same for Infinity and the other "boutique" skirmish games.
X-wing ships can also be played straight from the box, so you're not having to invest in brushes or paints to get going, and of course, the Star wars IP dwarves anything GW has come up with.
Forgot to mention pre-painted. Another good point.
LotR ain't quite Star Wars, but it's a big name with a bunch of films attached. And yet The Hobbit was a disaster for GW - the Limited Edition starter set is still on sale three years later. I don't even blame GW for the biggest of the problems (fugly goblins, mangled movie manoeuvrings, and an aggressive and overpriced licence). But don't undersell FFG - they got EVERYTHING right with X-WIng.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 10:38:29
2015/11/18 10:18:47
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Invest more into making the games attractive to play again, the price issue disappears for many. Just like painters go googly over all the bits you get in modern GW kits, that add no value for a gamer, make the games better so they're more enthused to buy the kit.
Imagine how much better it would feel to buy a Terminator Tac Squad, build and paint it and field it for the first time and discover it was good? That it actually felt like you'd put some of the galaxy's premier heavy infantry on the table, but you didn't feel somewhat cheated because they were so good you steamrollered everyone with them?
The issues with cost don't disappear, but they're heavily mitigated, whereas now the same action can often find them blown away, and induce a heavy case of buyers remorse.
They don't need "tournament" rules, they just need "good" rules and the community will take care of the rest.
Makes a lot of sense.
I can't be the only person who really cannot fathom how come there are units in most codexes that are considered junk. Why??? Do GW not want to sell those models or something?
And when both the rules and the models themselves are lacklustre (thinking of Possessed for starters), well, what's the point? From a business perspective, why are GW spending money producing and trying to sell models that they themselves have killed any demand for?
I would like to get to the point where every unit in every codex has a value, and a reason for wanting them in an army. It can be a very specific value, for a specific tactic or a specific opponent - but there shouldn't be dross.
2015/11/18 10:37:39
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Mind you GW can still manage to shoot themselves in both feet - Age of Sigar... I really do not understand the train of thought that led to that station.
You could make a list of all the reasons that GW made the switch to AoS, and almost every one of them would be a sensible individual business decision.
IP niche protection (I mean apart from Aelf...); New line of models; Easy intro for new customers; Cheap start for the same; Scaleable; All product equally usable with the rules; Re-invigorate sales from the dormant 50% of your shop space
Perfect, huh? Put them together in an inward-looking and heavily politicised corporate environment, where the customer is expected to open their wallet at the mere mention of the company's name, and it all goes pear-shaped. GW made a nice, light starter game for new customers they didn't bother to recruit, or are no longer capable of recruiting, while giving the game's existing fans the exact opposite of what they liked.
It's arguable that WFB has not really catered for years to the jewel in its crown - the dark, labyrinthine streets, forests and politics of The Empire, with Chaos and bad German sausage jokes howling and clawing at the door. But the flavourless and cheap Extruded Fantasy Product (as Terry Pratchett called it) they replaced it with certainly didn't help.
I can't be the only person who really cannot fathom how come there are units in most codexes that are considered junk. Why??? Do GW not want to sell those models or something?
And when both the rules and the models themselves are lacklustre (thinking of Possessed for starters), well, what's the point? From a business perspective, why are GW spending money producing and trying to sell models that they themselves have killed any demand for?
I would like to get to the point where every unit in every codex has a value, and a reason for wanting them in an army. It can be a very specific value, for a specific tactic or a specific opponent - but there shouldn't be dross.
Monte Cook has said that there were trap options - choices that were universally weaker than others - put into D&D 3rd edition on purpose. The designers wanted to encourage player mastery of the rules as well as gameworld interaction. Kind of sucks for the casual gamer.
You CAN'T DO THAT with a £20 box of models that you will spend a week assembling and painting, only to find you should have put the spears on instead of the swords. Or, indeed, bought a different model entirely. Customer is cheated out of money and time, product eats money sitting on a shelf unsold.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/18 10:44:14
2015/11/18 11:25:04
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I've always had a money-where-your-mouth-is, credit where credit's due approach to GW, and over the past near-decade they've fallen short of the mark, their nadir perhaps either being the (unnecessary and problem of their own creation) embargo and the Spots the Space Marine debacle.
But more recently they've taken strides to make me interested - campaign books and boxes being a good start. This latest batch of announcements has me in high hopes.
But the prices. They continue to raise them with every new release, and they've reached absolutely silly levels. The barrier to entry is higher than it's ever been (except for maybe Warhammer, since they killed it), and unless they fix that their other initiatives will count for naught.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I honestly believe the game design talent at GW has long departed, and the likeliest outcome for this new SG range, will be GW dusting off the original rules, and then dazzling us with new miniatures in the hope that nobody notices it's the same ruleset from years ago
Two things:
1. Wouldn't be the first time. I've often commented how "Necromunda: Underhive" was literally the original rule set, with every mistake and error in place from the original book, with only a couple of new things added and changed fire and sustained fire rules.
2. This is falling under the auspices of Forge World, so you (should) have Forge World sensibilities behind it, not to mention the Forge World writers. I know one of them to be quite good at his job (if he's reading this! ).
Crispy78 wrote: I can't be the only person who really cannot fathom how come there are units in most codexes that are considered junk. Why??? Do GW not want to sell those models or something?
It comes down to the whole "Forging a Narrative" thing. The simple truth is the people who write (or wrote) those rules just don't think like we do. I mean, I'm not a tournament guy, I'm the guy who wants to play long narrative campaigns, but I'm also not stupid. I know how to spot a bad unit or some shoddy rules a mile off (and that's well, well before I started writing rules professionally). So do many of the people here - hell, most of the people here, I'd wager.
But they're not us, basically. A few "play-tests" at lunch using non-standard forces and no real rigorous outside play-testing (because of that damned needless secrecy issue they have) means we get Codices and sometimes units seemingly designed in a vacuum.
Large scale play-testing, or open betas (paid betas even!) would go a long way to fixing their rules. They'd we want to buy every unit because every unit would be good!
And note I said "good", not "balanced". Perfect balance is impossible. Perfect imbalance however, that's attainable.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/11/18 11:36:01
Recent 40k releases and age of sigmar makes me think that a lot of the people in the core design team just are to unexperienced and/or not enough talent to carry the current systems or write new ones.
Battle of calth is OK rules wise, but it's more board game then war game.
Forge world's HH is very well written and if they are taking the helm then we have good things to look foreword too. GW prime has been disappointing. ..
I will say I fully do not expect any of these games to come back with updates if the old rules, and to expect completely different systems. None of the original writers of the rule sets work at GW anymore for the most part.
2015/11/18 19:48:45
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
A lot of GW's long-term and medium-term designers left the company up to a few years ago, for various reasons. GW could offer them a job again, of course, so it isn't the end of the world.
The quality of the current studio is shown in AoS, in my opinion; an unnecessarily clunky ruleset that basically is a conversion of WHFB/40K and has very few new ideas. To be fair, I suspect the current designers have to do what the accounts department tell them. They certainly don't take their orders from Marketing.
All GW really needs to do to get back on track is:
• Announce the upcoming WHFB 9th Edition.
• Or Release the rest of the 8th edition Army Books for WHFB.
And follow through on the Specialist Games announcement.
And cut their prices by about 50%.
Trust in Iron and Stone
2015/11/19 09:16:02
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: All GW really needs to do to get back on track is:
• Announce the upcoming WHFB 9th Edition.
• Or Release the rest of the 8th edition Army Books for WHFB.
And follow through on the Specialist Games announcement.
And cut their prices by about 50%.
Ah you are funny, you...
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/11/19 18:27:19
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I have to confess I'm a little out of touch with the price silliness, I've not bought anything GW for some time, and have barely bought anything GW that wasn't from certain "specialist international suppliers" in substantially longer.
For those of you that are still buying and aren't morally bankrupt, the price must be a huge issue now. I mean, there's stuff that retails for a price higher than I can warrant when I'm paying what are essentially wholesale prices, that's got to indicate a problem!
Prices will never come down though. There's plenty GW can do to keep going as long as there's a steady income stream coming in, and price cuts would potentially harm it, especially without the necessary knowledge to place the cut somewhere in the sweet spot where demand increases to offset the drop in revenue.
Value has to be their focus if they're to remain viable, and I think the start up and expansion costs of the SGs will be an important metric as to whether that message has been understood.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Prices could come down if GW decided to take less profit in the interest of increasing sales, which if it recruited more players would lead to more profits in the long term.
Unless you subscribe to the theory that GW have worked out they are better off with a small number of high spending customers who are very price insensitive.
Speaking for myself, I gave up buying new kits in 2010 and new books in 2012, due to pricing. I just felt the value wasn't there.
I subscribe to the theory that GW can't afford to cut prices. Their overhead is perilously close to their income right now (thanks, largely, to the millstone that is the retail chain) and if you cut prices to the point where your revenue is going to cease to cover your liabilities, then you're literally gambling with the company's future.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: if you cut prices to the point where your revenue is going to cease to cover your liabilities, then you're literally gambling with the company's future.
Or they could, you know... do some market research.
I find it hard to believe that the Necromunda IP "isn't profitable", they've been sitting on that for decades now, and people still talk about it all the time. I bet that if CMON could do a Necromunda Kickstarter, it would hit a million on the first day, there is no way that's worthless. I can "sort of" understand the mentality that space marines are GW's biggest earner, so any resources that aren't being used to sell space marines are considered unprofitable. But that thinking also prevents them from moving forward and potentially hitting on something even more popular. Instead we've got a really lopsided game where the are more marine books than everything else combined, with a marine versus marine starter set, and even marines in fantasy now. If back in the 1980s they'd said "Fantasy is our biggest earner, we're going to focus on that and not bother with sci-fi..." well they'd probably be out of business now.
I don't consider them to have turned a corner. I'm still waiting on those plastic sisters, and for them to bring back squats. When that happens, then we'll talk.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 00:12:49
2015/11/20 00:17:37
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Doing market research is a gimme, but solid information on non-sales is still tough. Finding people who may have bought from you and didn't and the subsequent reasons why is a big ask.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Doing market research is a gimme, but solid information on non-sales is still tough. Finding people who may have bought from you and didn't and the subsequent reasons why is a big ask.
Its not, Just create an official thread here and on other popular wargaming boards and ask. There will certainly be lots and lots of froth but there will also be a reams of useful data. Its not ideal but it would still provide useful data.
Azreal13 wrote: I subscribe to the theory that GW can't afford to cut prices. Their overhead is perilously close to their income right now (thanks, largely, to the millstone that is the retail chain) and if you cut prices to the point where your revenue is going to cease to cover your liabilities, then you're literally gambling with the company's future.
You know that you and I see eye to eye on pretty much everything, and I also agree that the retail chain is one of GW's biggest problems, but the pricing issue is so over the top that it has to change.
Just look at the cost of the new Assassins, the BA Chaplain and BA Termy Captain. Those prices are utterly insane. It cannot stay this way.
Azreal13 wrote: I subscribe to the theory that GW can't afford to cut prices. Their overhead is perilously close to their income right now (thanks, largely, to the millstone that is the retail chain) and if you cut prices to the point where your revenue is going to cease to cover your liabilities, then you're literally gambling with the company's future.
You know that you and I see eye to eye on pretty much everything, and I also agree that the retail chain is one of GW's biggest problems, but the pricing issue is so over the top that it has to change.
Just look at the cost of the new Assassins, the BA Chaplain and BA Termy Captain. Those prices are utterly insane. It cannot stay this way.
I can tell you I'd have purchased the new DA Interrogator chaplain already it was decently priced, but apparently GW wants to get 0€ from me instead of like, 15/17€.
And that is just one example out of many. C'mon GW.... Plastic kits aren't that expensive to produce.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 08:36:40
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/11/20 08:38:55
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 08:45:30
Trust in Iron and Stone
2015/11/20 08:50:31
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
You haven't added the space marine tax into that.
2015/11/20 09:24:24
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote:Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
Amen, the detail is also just as good sometimes. Though a bit frailer for some reason. I keep snapping Tamiya pieces like the gun barrels in my fingers. But yeah I'd settle for 10 models = $25 US and $20 paperback codexes.
-Loki- wrote:The main issue is they will be throwing themselves in direct competition with what's out there.
40k still holds a niche as a mass battle game. There's no other sci fi game out there that expands into the massive, massive games that 40k does with titans and aerial combat (for better or worse), and only very recently have some competitors started offering larger plastic kits. None on the level that GW themselves still make (I'm aware of model competitors like Revell, I'm talking about games companies).
Fantasys niche has been encroached on by Kings of War, and Fantasy as a whole is less popular than sci fi in the market right now. But with Age of Sigmar they seem to be trying to find a new niche for Fantasy, so we'll have to see how that pans out.
Once they relaunch some of their other games, they may have the brand and GW's in house manufacturing behind it, but gamers have largely moved on. Relaunching Epic has been a popular request, but they'll be competing with things like Dropzone Commander and Firestorm Planetfall. Necromunda will be in direct competition with Infinity and several other sci fi skirmish games. Mordheim will be up against Frostgrave and Malifaux.
These games have been making good headway in stores and clubs, so they'll have an uphill battle to recover customers they lost when they binned Specialist Games.
Then board games. The market is saturated now. Walk into any well stocked game store and you'll be spoiled for choice for them. Miniature heavy, card heavy, competitive, cooperative, sci fi, fantasy, modern day and all bits in between. Rule 34 is starting to apply to boardgames - if you can think of it, there's probably a boardgame out for it.
That's not saying GW can't do it, and they probably will. Their brand, especially around their specialist games, still holds a huge amount of favour - mostly because those gamers left before GW went full slow on their rules and pricing. But their specialist games have far more direct competition than 40k or Fantasy ever had.
I don't think fantasy is losing out over sci fi at all. Pathfinder and D&D 5th are the kings of RPGs now. (Pathfinder having taken the crown since 4th's failure.) But there isn't many GOOD sci fi RPGs. The 40k one ain't bad, and Shadowrun is probably the only big sci-fi pen and paper product. In video games it's neck and neck Skyrim is GOD, and Fallout 4 if I ever get it...I'll probably vanish off the face of the earth for awhile. But then you also got Dragon Age, Witcher, etc. etc. and on the other side games like Mass Effect series. AoS is bad because the rules are outright unplayable with no way of building an army to set level. KoW though hasn't moved ANYWHERE and I've seen actually vanish from places near me like Hobbytown USA in favor of Gundam kits. It takes an hour and a half drive to get to one store, that has 1 box of Warmachine on their shelves. X-wing is getting out there but it's Star Wars, of course it's going to sell well, it could be Star Wars pogs and they'd outsell anything around their shelf space.
And every game you mentioned as a competitor other then Infinity or Malifux, I haven't even seen a box for. (And for that matter Infinity is expensive and more a competitor to Inquisitor then Necromunda IMHO. And I'm not impressed at all by their minis. ) Hopefully the specialist games, will Segway into the bigger games, Necromunda could be a great intro for 40K, Mordheim for WHFB/AoS. And Blood Bowl is just fun.
And yeah the board games are heavily saturated, but only a handful are actually really fun. (Munchkin is great but the latest expansion to me was dull, but then again I hate Nightmare Before Christmas.)
That being said, and a bit off topic...there's a Rule 34 boardgame?
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
Has there ever been any satisfactorily answer to why GW don't engage in market research?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/11/20 13:47:13
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
The problem is though that GW's finances are so perilous that a price reduction would need to be done slowly, something obviously needs to be done in the long term of course but it needs to be measured and gradual.
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
They are not even close to comparable, which should be obvious when you look at actual similar products. You are basically using the amount of plastic in a kit as the only point of comparison, which is a tiny part of pricing. Show me one multi-part plastic non-historical kit that has 10 figures for $10. Even Mantic, whose whole schtick is quantity over quality, can't manage 1 for $1 unless you buy at least 20 models in one of their hugely discounted Kickstarters. Retail isn't close.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 14:01:50
2015/11/20 14:10:01
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
They are not even close to comparable, which should be obvious when you look at actual similar products. Show me one multi-part plastic non-historical kit that has 10 figures for $10. I'll wait.
The "it's not historical so it must be pricey" point really is no excuse for the outrageous prices we're seeing, unless you're saying; a) we should be willing to pay the Space Marine tax and stfu, or b) the plastic and molds GW uses are of such spectacularly higher quality than Tamiya's (which I find really unlikely) to justify this price. A Space Marine tax of roughly 20€ on a DA Int-chaplain is just mind boggling.
Plastic is the same cost everywhere - if GW's plastic costs double than Tamiya's, then GW needs to find a cheaper plastic supplier.... unless
And... Can we seriously justify the pricing for the new assassins, for example? Compare them to their previous versions - can we really justify the 100% price increase? And how many customers are they winning over with this practice?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 14:15:43
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/11/20 14:21:21
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
They are not even close to comparable, which should be obvious when you look at actual similar products. Show me one multi-part plastic non-historical kit that has 10 figures for $10. I'll wait.
The "it's not historical so it must be pricey" point really is no excuse for the outrageous prices we're seeing, unless you're saying; a) should be willing to pay the Space Marine tax, or b) the plastic and molds GW uses are of such spectacularly higher quality than Tamiya's (which I find really unlikely) to justify this price. A Space Marine tax of roughly 20€ on a DA Int-chaplain is just mind boggling.
Plastic is the same cost everywhere - if GW's plastic costs double than Tamiya's, then GW needs to find a cheaper plastic supplier.... unless
And... Can we seriously justify the pricing for the new assassins, for example? Compare them to their previous versions - can we really justify the 100% price increase?
Branding is obviously one part of the cost. If you want Space Marines, you have to go to GW. If you want plastic army men, you can get them from one of dozens of manufacturers. They can't price them any higher because people would buy their competitors products.
Another part is design. GW needs concept art, backstory etc for every product they develop, which means they need to pay people to develop those things. Historical miniature makes get all that for free.
Another part is widespread appeal. Historical miniatures have a much larger potential consumer base than GW miniatures. This means they can produce more of them and thus lower costs.
As for characters, yes, they are expensive, indeed too expensive. Even if they necessitate much smaller production runs than unit boxes and thus need to cost a lot more (plastic gets a lot more expensive the less you produce, as the fixed costs are high), the current prices are still too high. But reducing the discussion down to amounts of plastic per box is a gross oversimplification that doesn't help anyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 14:22:04
2015/11/20 14:23:46
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Azreal13 wrote: I subscribe to the theory that GW can't afford to cut prices. Their overhead is perilously close to their income right now (thanks, largely, to the millstone that is the retail chain) and if you cut prices to the point where your revenue is going to cease to cover your liabilities, then you're literally gambling with the company's future.
You know that you and I see eye to eye on pretty much everything, and I also agree that the retail chain is one of GW's biggest problems, but the pricing issue is so over the top that it has to change.
Just look at the cost of the new Assassins, the BA Chaplain and BA Termy Captain. Those prices are utterly insane. It cannot stay this way.
Oh indeed. Price rises have "hidden" (not very well, but there you go) poor decisions and sliding sales for a long time. Admitting they're one of the major problems is going to require a major culture shift (and Kevin Rowntree has straight-out told us it isn't on the cards even with all the other major changes).
Twenty quid for a figure is insane, and looking at the bundles on the GW website, I can't help feeling that GW think £200-300 is a "reasonable" base spend for an army. That has to go. It's entirely deliberate that Warlord's prices for playable armies are consistently in the £50-£75 range.
But I'm with Azrael - they've no wiggle room left to lower prices. Remember every unit you sell increases costs too - most business analysts will warn you not to compete by volume, and GW ain't THAT big a company. A 20% price drop across the board (pretty much the minimum needed) would kill the company.
One solution is to make what you have worth more. Truly standalone boxed games with a lot of content. Expansions that contain complete forces and bonus material (maps, scenarios). FFG add a lot of bits to expansions to make you feel like you're not being bilked, even if you are.
The retail chain is a funny one. You'd say any part of your business process that triples the overheads for your product has got to go, but it's also their only point of contact with the customer, and a major part of their sales strategy. One-man shops looks good on paper, but I'd say they're leaving GW with the major costs (rents, business rates - not staff) but hurting sales.
GW could do this one NOW - make a skirmish game where a box of 40k troops is a complete force. They all come with lots of build options for weapons and gear anyway - get more mileage out of what you have in shops already. People may still spend £200 on the game... but they'll have 8-10 forces, and kids can buy a box a month with pocket money rather than buying... well nothing because they can't afford even a basic army. Painting becomes a pleasure rather than a grind. Well, maybe...
OK maybe for the fluff your Space Marines have to be more powerful that other troops, it just means that you have more options built for your force. Or two forces.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 14:30:57
2015/11/20 14:27:59
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
snurl wrote: Agreed. A box of Tamiya 1/35 scale plastic Infantry (54mm) costs about $10 for 8 figures. Those figures are almost twice the size of an average GW foot figure. So it would stand to reason that a box of 10 Space Marines should cost about $10. With optional parts, maybe $15.
When you look around at the cost of similar products from other companies you begin to see how far out of reality GW's prices are.
They are not even close to comparable, which should be obvious when you look at actual similar products. Show me one multi-part plastic non-historical kit that has 10 figures for $10. I'll wait.
The "it's not historical so it must be pricey" point really is no excuse for the outrageous prices we're seeing, unless you're saying; a) should be willing to pay the Space Marine tax, or b) the plastic and molds GW uses are of such spectacularly higher quality than Tamiya's (which I find really unlikely) to justify this price. A Space Marine tax of roughly 20€ on a DA Int-chaplain is just mind boggling.
Plastic is the same cost everywhere - if GW's plastic costs double than Tamiya's, then GW needs to find a cheaper plastic supplier.... unless
And... Can we seriously justify the pricing for the new assassins, for example? Compare them to their previous versions - can we really justify the 100% price increase?
Branding is obviously one part of the cost. If you want Space Marines, you have to go to GW. If you want plastic army men, you can get them from one of dozens of manufacturers. They can't price them any higher because people would buy their competitors products.
Another part is design. GW needs concept art, backstory etc for every product they develop, which means they need to pay people to develop those things. Historical miniature makes get all that for free.
Another part is widespread appeal. Historical miniatures have a much larger potential consumer base than GW miniatures. This means they can produce more of them and thus lower costs.
As for characters, yes, they are expensive, indeed too expensive. Even if they necessitate much smaller production runs than unit boxes and thus need to cost a lot more (plastic gets a lot more expensive the less you produce, as the fixed costs are high), the current prices are still too high. But reducing the discussion down to amounts of plastic per box is a gross oversimplification that doesn't help anyone.
But that's the start of it all. Assuming the plastic costs the same, we are then exposed to the full extent of GW's increased pricing, (including design, of course).
Do note Mym, I am not saying that they shouldn't charge for the design and the brand, I am saying they are massively overcharging for it. As I mentioned above, I would've happily parted with 15-17€ for that chaplain, because I think it's the fair price - but 25€? That is pushing way too much. What are those extra 10€ doing there? To cover up the massive mishandling of GW management this last few years? Highly likely.
I am pretty sure I'm not the only customer that decided to give 0€ to GW instead of, for example, 17€. How much money (and wiggle room) has that cost GW on its own? How much money have they effectively lost by making themselves too costly?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 14:30:07
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