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 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

Plastic Thunderhawk is still out there. Sisters haven't been redone yet. But yeah, that's about it.

Sisters ain't gonna float the company back to shore, in spite of a vocal minority. Thunderhawk is a seller though, that's for sure.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Sisters ain't gonna float the company back to shore, in spite of a vocal minority. Thunderhawk is a seller though, that's for sure.

Not currently but I'm sure people would jump into a Sisters army if they came out with some slick plastic kits; you're right though, not enough to float. The thing is, I think that they've thrown about as much gack at the wall as they're going to be able to now it's all going to be how successful bringing back specialist games winds up being.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

Well, the board game itself is actually a pretty cool way to play with a small-ish army for each player.
Tweaking it as a general rule set to include other races and new scenarios might actually get us to play 40k stuff again.
Until then, 40k has continued down the same bloated mess that WFB had become since at least 5th edition WFB.
Not saying they will but the BaC rule engine is simple but still a very decent miniatures game.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Are you fething real? BaC is pretty awesome!!

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Are you fething real? BaC is pretty awesome!!

I didn't say it was a bad product.

Killing the Fantasy world off is by far the worst. Way to wreck a 30 year old IP which they spend half their time protecting.

Most of us think AoS is a pile of gak. But that's not really a big deal. There's plenty of other gak games out there.
All GW had to do was release an AoS style starter game. Get people into the Fantasy side of things with a small army and a free game to play. As they enlarged their armies, they could move onto WHFB. Therefore that entry level barrier to Fantasy (ie. Huge armies) would be gone. Happy Fantasy players as new AoS players would be coming into the hobby.


On a personal note, End Times, AoS and huge expensive 40k kits were a great thing. Had they not been brought out, I wouldn't have discovered Kings of War and moved into all manner of other non-GW games. Thanks GeeDub - because of your business decisions, I've gone from being a "GW Only" player since 1984, to playing no GW games at all, just things like KoW, Bolt Action, Iron Cross, Deadzone and Frostgrave. I just wish they'd done it sooner so I could have discovered the non GW market years ago.

Joyboozer wrote:
I agree with Talys, three months of fantasy space marines just made it obvious the whole purpose of AoS was to just sell fantasy space marines.
Anybody who was on the fence about AoS was just left not knowing if their army would continue to be supported by GW, then loose interest and wander off.

I also agree.
AOS as a concept isn't bad. A simple game with low model count and could be played in a relaxed way is a great concept for some and would definitely find a place in the community.
However....
The execution was terrible.
There was no need to blow up the old world completely. It alienated many existing fans for no gain.
The "legacy armies" players are still left in limbo wondering what's happened to their armies after many months. Still no word.
The new world is as shallow as a Kardashian and has no depth, no detail and nothing to really hang any stories on. For a "Narrative game" one would think this would be important.
Low model count, yes, but the new fewer models are more expensive than the more older models.
The game is unworkable for any serious attempt at competitive or pick up play, alienating even more players.


And GW continues to do all the bad things GW does. No communication, etc.

As others have much more effectively pointed out, the real issues with AOS- those that make it the biggest mistake- have everything to do with execution. Killing WHFB (both the game and lore), leaving multiple months of Ground Marines, and basically releasing the game with no fanfare ahead of time were all pivotal in the game's poor reception. Now we have boxes on Amazon for half the original price, and still GW have done little with AOS except flesh out Stormcasts and Chaos, leaving fans up in the air as to the future of the remaining factions.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

Yes, that bothers me too, they have deployed everything they denied to the community the past 30 years except kathay (araby maybe?) plastic thunderhawk and SOBs, leaving their emergency cards pool depleted.

I am not sure how much more they can have planned, before they have to go out of their comfort zone and do something new IP wise.

Given this can stretch it for 2-5 more years and deep planning does not seem to be their thing, but still.

In the same way that GW rules are an excuse for collectors to buy some model kits, so is fluff.

As many have said - ending WHFB.

Age of Sigmar is naught but a symptom of that mistake.

Continuing to not do any market research, and failing to engage in a dialog with their fans is also a major causative factor.

If it were not for the tooling needed for the AoS plastics, I would think that the game was something written in five minutes, because they had planned to just kill off Fantasy... but End Times relit the spark... for a brief while, at least.

The Auld Grump

Killing off Fantasy the way they did, Now there is no one to play in my area.
Not a fan of their even more expensive paint brushes.
Releasing the airbrush versions of their paints in their traditional paint pots and not dropper bottles.

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

Plastic Thunderhawk is still out there. Sisters haven't been redone yet. But yeah, that's about it.

The plastic thunderhawk is the nuclear option - break glass in emergency only

GW are saving that for the day when its customers get so mad, they lay siege to GW HQ and Kirby, before being evacuated from the roof by heleicopter, Saigon style, throws that idea to the crowd to buy himself some time to escape

Are enough people gonna buy a kit that'll probably cost around £300 to stem the tide?I don't think so.I'd like to,but I could buy a crapton of other kits with that kind of cash for other systems,not to mention static display kits too

Looking back on 2015 after the 40th bday bash I'd have to say the biggest mistake was not communicating and engaging the community more and sooner. I'm grateful for where it's headed but hopefully this turnaround continues this year.

 Da Boss wrote:
Gonna have to go with Age of Sigmar too.

Blowing up the Fantasy world and replacing it with the current half baked nonsense was a very poor decision.

Ludicrous prices on End Times books and models that became obsolete in record time is a close runner up though!

Agreed with all of this, however AoS isn't even half baked it's more like it got dropped on the floor on the way to the oven and we got given the resultant mess. I miss playing with my elves and lizardmen

Obviously the killing of the Old World was a low point, even if it was not the worst thing GW did. AoS mechanics are not the best, but were made so much worse by the entire situation surrounding their release.

Some people have this crackpot idea where all WHFB games had to take place in the forward modern edge of the current era, and that AoS is an improvement because that world had nowhere left to go-as if the eternal war of Stormcast vs. Khorne is any improvement. As if every single 40k game since the mid-2000's has to take place during the 13th Black Crusade campaign era.

Killing 30 years of setting was idiocy of the highest caliber. Can you imagine if GW did that to the 40k universe? The WHFB Old World was an awesome evocative setting where a multitude of game types could take place, from RPG to Skirmish to Mass Battles, which could take place anywhere in a hundreds of years-long span in the setting, replaced by a war in Valhalla between the Space Marines of Order and the Daemon/Cultist hordes of Chaos.

Were the Harlequins made in 2015? I think so...
I had such high hopes for them, (I even bought a box new from GW to see the new plastics), but when I saw those horrible rules (the army composition list, with no HQ and the bizarre mandatory requirements) I sold the army and have never pondered anything 40k since.
It was such a shame too, I really wanted to like them.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Horus Heresy box

Internet contrarian!

I just thought it was a bad idea to finally deploy the game onto the customers. What have they got left in reserve now? Specialist games? Already coming. The studio don't have the chops to create anything original.

End times, indeed.

Theres plenty of mileage in specialist games and even pre heresy stuff like the crusade, age of strife before they get desperate and get the squats back in !
Plenty of models yet to be produced for the exsisting races that would also sell by the boatload, stuff redone in plastic and the likes in addition to the recent IP saturation of the computer and video games market, there might be a lot of shovel ware but there are some solid titles in amongst them finally.

The end times dont appear to be coming anytime soon..

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Some people have this crackpot idea where all WHFB games had to take place in the forward modern edge of the current era, and that AoS is an improvement because that world had nowhere left to go-as if the eternal war of Stormcast vs. Khorne is any improvement. As if every single 40k game since the mid-2000's has to take place during the 13th Black Crusade campaign era.

Someone'll be along shortly to tell you that you just don't understand, and gamers have to do that because... erm... FLGSs... um... eh... it's got something to do with army books.

 Vermis wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Some people have this crackpot idea where all WHFB games had to take place in the forward modern edge of the current era, and that AoS is an improvement because that world had nowhere left to go-as if the eternal war of Stormcast vs. Khorne is any improvement. As if every single 40k game since the mid-2000's has to take place during the 13th Black Crusade campaign era.

Someone'll be along shortly to tell you that you just don't understand, and gamers have to do that because... erm... FLGSs... um... eh... it's got something to do with army books.

Considering that my favorite GW game is Mordheim, set waaayyyy before the current era in Warhammer... I am not one of those people.

The Auld Grump

AoS combined with getting rid of the old world...kind of a two for, I actually like playing AoS but that doesnt stop it from being a turd.

AoS is my vote

is it AOS or is it they didnt just release 9th along with it? if feel AOS was very smart but the lack of 9th made it "risky" and "bad"

I think more would have taken AoS better had warhammer not died for it. the old world wasnt the problem with warhammer. the fluff ( to me at least) is a BIG problem with AoS.

I'm not really a huge fan of the AoS fluff, although the story lines are mildly interesting. Personally, though, I didn't like the WHFB fluff either, though. It really wasn't my thing.

One of the problems of both AoS and WHFB is that there isn't a primary story arc that can be expressed in a few words that would capture someone's imagination -- the way Star Wars or 40k succeed in. Instead, you have a bunch of story arcs that even as a fan of GW models (ie someone who WANTS to like the fluff) has a hard time getting engaged in.

For me, it's not really unique to AoS, though; I can't get into WMH fluff either, and believe me, I've tried. Just not my thing. 40k, as crappy as some of the writing is (some of it's decent, too, in fairness), sucks me into of the better audiobooks, at least enough to care about what happens to the protagonists, like Garro. They at least make for nice listening during painting.

One of the problems of both AoS and WHFB is that there isn't a primary story arc that can be expressed in a few words that would capture someone's imagination -- the way Star Wars or 40k succeed in. Instead, you have a bunch of story arcs that even as a fan of GW models (ie someone who WANTS to like the fluff) has a hard time getting engaged in.

I've always held that settings need to be sold to a gamer, not stories. The gamers make the stories interesting by putting their own personal touch into an army/force. The setting being evocative is what makes them want to play in the first place.

And I always describe WHFB as "Miniatures battles in a world of dark fantasy, heroes, and monsters".

But yeah, I actually think that the AoS ruleset would have been welcomed more warmly if it wasn't a "Boom! The old game world is dead- all hail the new universe!", which left many players reeling too much that the rules being completely different to what their Warhammer had been for decades were a double-whammy.