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 FlingitNow wrote:
So what has the unit done?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I never stated the unit was from this formation. So a generic unit shoots. What has the unit done?

The unit has resolved its shooting.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Now, read the whole section instead of relying on the blurb. Important details tend to come up in there.

Did you see anything about models not Shooting having considered the unit to have shot?

Not relevant. The rule in question only cares that the unit shoots and not whether or not it is considered to have shot.

Consider the Gets Hot case example where a unit shoots and exhausts its shooting but is not considered to have shot.

Relevant. Shot is the past tense of shoot, so if a unit shoots, it will be considered to have shot.

But hey, if you don't want to actually answer the actual question that is pertinent to the topic, you could just concede. OR you could actually answer the question pertinent to the topic.

If the models cannot shoot, what says the unit is Shooting?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Now, read the whole section instead of relying on the blurb. Important details tend to come up in there.

Did you see anything about models not Shooting having considered the unit to have shot?

Not relevant. The rule in question only cares that the unit shoots and not whether or not it is considered to have shot.

Consider the Gets Hot case example where a unit shoots and exhausts its shooting but is not considered to have shot.

Relevant. Shot is the past tense of shoot, so if a unit shoots, it will be considered to have shot.

But hey, if you don't want to actually answer the actual question that is pertinent to the topic, you could just concede. OR you could actually answer the question pertinent to the topic.

If the models cannot shoot, what says the unit is Shooting?

The burden is on you here. Unit shooting is different than model shooting. Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence. Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.

If the models cannot shoot, what says the unit is not shooting?

col_impact wrote:
Unit shooting is different than model shooting.

Is there some rule in the BRB that states this?

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Unit shooting is different than model shooting.

Is there some rule in the BRB that states this?

Yup.

We know competing all steps of the Shooting Sequence has the unit shooting. Which part tells us that not completing it due to no models being in range counts as the unit shooting?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
We know competing all steps of the Shooting Sequence has the unit shooting. Which part tells us that not completing it due to no models being in range counts as the unit shooting?

A unit can complete the Shooting Sequence by simply nominating a unit to shoot at a target unit in LOS and marching through the queue of models and weapons and the steps of the Shooting Sequence.

Whether or not any model fires a shot due to 'Gets Hot' or 'out of range' does not keep the unit from completing the Shooting Sequence.

I will take door number 3 ... more specifically this:

Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit.

If a model that wishes to shoot but is found not to be in range has not shot. If the entire unit is not in range, they have not shot.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I will take door number 3 ... more specifically this:

Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit.

If a model that wishes to shoot but is found not to be in range has not shot. If the entire unit is not in range, they have not shot.

The rule does not care if a model has shot.

The rule only care that the unit shoots.

The unit shoots by going through the Shooting Sequence.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Now, read the whole section instead of relying on the blurb. Important details tend to come up in there.

Did you see anything about models not Shooting having considered the unit to have shot?

Not relevant. The rule in question only cares that the unit shoots and not whether or not it is considered to have shot.

Consider the Gets Hot case example where a unit shoots and exhausts its shooting but is not considered to have shot.

Relevant. Shot is the past tense of shoot, so if a unit shoots, it will be considered to have shot.

But hey, if you don't want to actually answer the actual question that is pertinent to the topic, you could just concede. OR you could actually answer the question pertinent to the topic.

If the models cannot shoot, what says the unit is Shooting?

The burden is on you here. Unit shooting is different than model shooting. Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence. Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.

If the models cannot shoot, what says the unit is not shooting?

No, sorry, that does not fly. You made the statement and you need to support it. It's part of the tenets of the forum. One cannot just say that units have been shooting and is different than model shooting without an actual statement in the rulebook.

Where is it?

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Unit shooting is different than model shooting.

Is there some rule in the BRB that states this?

Yup.

Spoiler:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Hmm. Nope, not there. Nothing in there states that unit shooting is different than model shooting. In fact, it looks like model shooting is what allows units to be considered shooting.

Oh, and cleaned up the quote for you. And have you bothered to read and find an actual quote through the rest of the Shooting Sequence rules to support this theory?

col_impact wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I will take door number 3 ... more specifically this:

Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit.

If a model that wishes to shoot but is found not to be in range has not shot. If the entire unit is not in range, they have not shot.

The rule does not care if a model has shot.

The rule only care that the unit shoots.

The unit shoots by going through the Shooting Sequence.

No, not entirely, and least, not by anything you have quoted at this point.

Let's look at the synopsis again, especially since you are so fond of it:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

So, we nominate a unit to shoot, and one that has not shot yet. So far so good.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

Okay, a unit can shoot at an enemy they can see. Still no note of change.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

First note of models shooting and first real active restriction instead of a restriction via permission. Still no notes separating this action or definition between model and unit.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

Okay, if no models shoot, there are no Rolls To Hit, and the process stops here, unable to continue in this process. We are not given permission to proceed any further. And still no separation of action or definition between model and unit. This would normally be sufficient, but let us continue.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

Wounding requires hits, hits require shots, shots require shooting, shooting requires range. No shooting, no Rolls To Hit. No Rolls To Hit, no Rolls To Wound. No note of separation between between unit shooting and model shooting.

6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.

Here we determine the results of the Wounds of Step 5. Saves require allocation, allocation requires Wounds, Wounds require Wounding, and so on as before. Again, no note of separation between unit shooting and model shooting. Indeed at this point we have been incumbent on model shooting to progress to this point.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

To select another weapon, we have to resolve the shots. What shots have been made if they have been out of range? The answer in Step 3 is: "none". Still, no separation between model and unit shooting at this point.

So, can we find a better example where it states an attempt at shooting with no shots is a unit shooting?

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Unit shooting is different than model shooting.

Is there some rule in the BRB that states this?

Yup.

Spoiler:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

There is nothing in there that states Unit shooting is different than model shooting...

col_impact wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
We know competing all steps of the Shooting Sequence has the unit shooting. Which part tells us that not completing it due to no models being in range counts as the unit shooting?

A unit can complete the Shooting Sequence by simply nominating a unit to shoot at a target unit in LOS and marching through the queue of models and weapons and the steps of the Shooting Sequence.

Whether or not any model fires a shot due to 'Gets Hot' or 'out of range' does not keep the unit from completing the Shooting Sequence.

I was going to go step by step and draw conclusions on unit shooting being dependent on model shooting, but Charistoph did it for me.

Also, models still fire per Gets Hot:

"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit."

The weapon is fired by the model. What about your quote from earlier? Okay, let's look at 'Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit':

"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3."

Oh, look. The shot is not fired, but yet we still have a firing model referred to. Once again, a shot not being fired due to a weapon suffering Gets Hot (after all, the weapon explicitly Gets Hot) is not the same as claiming the model does not fire said weapon.

Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence.

Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.


Feel free to offer alternate tenable definitions of unit shooting and model shooting.

I am curious what definition of unit shooting you can come up with that will be exactly the same as model shooting, considering that units are collectives of models.

col_impact wrote:
Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence.

Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.


Feel free to offer alternate tenable definitions of unit shooting and model shooting.

I am curious what definition of unit shooting you can come up with that will be exactly the same as model shooting, considering that units are collectives of models.

I've never claimed that unit shooting is the same as model shooting.

Feel free to offer a response to my actual points, instead of avoiding what you can't or won't answer.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence.

Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.


Feel free to offer alternate tenable definitions of unit shooting and model shooting.

I am curious what definition of unit shooting you can come up with that will be exactly the same as model shooting, considering that units are collectives of models.

I've never claimed that unit shooting is the same as model shooting.

Feel free to offer a response to my actual points, instead of avoiding what you can't or won't answer.

That was more of a general response/call to the thread.

So sure, the Gets Hot example shows you have a firing weapon. But the Gets Hot weapon has not shot per the rules.

The storm lance battle demi company rule in question only requires 'unit shoots' and does not require that the 'unit has shot'.

And unit shooting requires model shooting.

col_impact wrote:
Units shoot by going through the shooting sequence.

Models shoot by firing shots from weapons.


Feel free to offer alternate tenable definitions of unit shooting and model shooting.

I am curious what definition of unit shooting you can come up with that will be exactly the same as model shooting, considering that units are collectives of models.

You missed the part about how the term "shoots" is any different between unit and model. You also have provided nothing that states a unit with no models shooting still shoots.

Yes, units do shoot by going through the shooting sequence, by having the models which make them up shoot by firing their weapons (it's right there in Step 3/4). It is a dependent relationship. Weapons do not fire, leads to no models shooting, which leads to unit not shooting.

No unit shooting, means no unit getting 2D6" movement after it didn't shoot, even though it tried.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So what has the unit done?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I never stated the unit was from this formation. So a generic unit shoots. What has the unit done?

The unit has resolved its shooting.

I didn't say that. Resolved shooting requires removal of relevant casualties etc I didn't give that information. Try again a unit that shoots has done what? Simplest English terms please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's try this another way. Is this statement true or false:

After a unit shoots, the unit has shot.

I was wondering if you can hail mary throw grenades if they're short and pray for the best for the scatter dice?

Does this fall under the same thing of not having a target and thus being unable to use them? Technically speaking the scatter allows for a range extension of sorts if you get lucky with it

If you're not in range you can't shoot. Unless you're playing Col_Hammer where things that shoot will have then not shot.

Zelarias wrote:
I was wondering if you can hail mary throw grenades if they're short and pray for the best for the scatter dice?

Does this fall under the same thing of not having a target and thus being unable to use them? Technically speaking the scatter allows for a range extension of sorts if you get lucky with it

The target still needs to be in range to even place the Marker. The Marker is placed over a target Unit model in range and then Scatter is determined.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you're not in range you can't shoot. Unless you're playing Col_Hammer where things that shoot will have then not shot.

"This is hardly the time to be conjugating temporal verbs in the past and possible never tense!" (if you can source that quote, I'll give you a cookie)

But seriously, this has been a fascinating thread to read through. It seems that the crux of the matter is that col_impact believes the following:

If a unit reaches step 3 of the shooting sequence, the phrase "the unit has shot" becomes true.

In a sort of Reductio Ad Absurdum, can we assume that, since there's nothing special about step three (other than it pertains to the issue of range at hand), the phrase "the unit has shot" will be true even if a unit only reaches step 2 or 1?
If so, can the 2D6 movement be initiated if there are no enemy units in LOS (step 2)? Can the 2D6 movement be initiated if the unit in question has no shooting weapons (step 1)?
In both cases, the shooting sequence has been initiated and, at least according to col_impact, "the unit has shot."
Either a unit can "has shot" simply by reaching step 1 of the shooting sequence (meaning there are no restrictions on when a unit can generate the 2D6 movement benefit) or a unit must complete the shooting sequence to make the statement "has shot" true.

I think it's pretty clear the latter is the case.

DoW

Actually Col's argument has got weirder he claims that the unit as not shot and that the unit must shoot is not the same requirement as the must have shot. Bizarre temporal Col_Hammer...

Quote from Big Bang Theory?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Actually Col's argument has got weirder he claims that the unit as not shot and that the unit must shoot is not the same requirement as the must have shot. Bizarre temporal Col_Hammer...

Quote from Big Bang Theory?

According to Google, it's a little more British, redder, and smaller.

 DogOfWar wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you're not in range you can't shoot. Unless you're playing Col_Hammer where things that shoot will have then not shot.

"This is hardly the time to be conjugating temporal verbs in the past and possible never tense!" (if you can source that quote, I'll give you a cookie)

But seriously, this has been a fascinating thread to read through. It seems that the crux of the matter is that col_impact believes the following:

If a unit reaches step 3 of the shooting sequence, the phrase "the unit has shot" becomes true.

In a sort of Reductio Ad Absurdum, can we assume that, since there's nothing special about step three (other than it pertains to the issue of range at hand), the phrase "the unit has shot" will be true even if a unit only reaches step 2 or 1?
If so, can the 2D6 movement be initiated if there are no enemy units in LOS (step 2)? Can the 2D6 movement be initiated if the unit in question has no shooting weapons (step 1)?
In both cases, the shooting sequence has been initiated and, at least according to col_impact, "the unit has shot."
Either a unit can "has shot" simply by reaching step 1 of the shooting sequence (meaning there are no restrictions on when a unit can generate the 2D6 movement benefit) or a unit must complete the shooting sequence to make the statement "has shot" true.

I think it's pretty clear the latter is the case.

DoW

Incorrect. The rule only requires that we satisfy "unit shoots". A unit shoots by running through the shooting sequence.

col_impact wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you're not in range you can't shoot. Unless you're playing Col_Hammer where things that shoot will have then not shot.

"This is hardly the time to be conjugating temporal verbs in the past and possible never tense!" (if you can source that quote, I'll give you a cookie)

But seriously, this has been a fascinating thread to read through. It seems that the crux of the matter is that col_impact believes the following:

If a unit reaches step 3 of the shooting sequence, the phrase "the unit has shot" becomes true.

In a sort of Reductio Ad Absurdum, can we assume that, since there's nothing special about step three (other than it pertains to the issue of range at hand), the phrase "the unit has shot" will be true even if a unit only reaches step 2 or 1?
If so, can the 2D6 movement be initiated if there are no enemy units in LOS (step 2)? Can the 2D6 movement be initiated if the unit in question has no shooting weapons (step 1)?
In both cases, the shooting sequence has been initiated and, at least according to col_impact, "the unit has shot."
Either a unit can "has shot" simply by reaching step 1 of the shooting sequence (meaning there are no restrictions on when a unit can generate the 2D6 movement benefit) or a unit must complete the shooting sequence to make the statement "has shot" true.

I think it's pretty clear the latter is the case.

DoW

Incorrect. The rule only requires that we satisfy "unit shoots". A unit shoots by running through the shooting sequence.

And if the shooting sequence stops before any shooting is done, what then?

Still waiting on a quote to support the position that a unit with no models shooting, is indeed shooting and satisfies "unit shoots".

I swear, the mental and verbal gymnastics people use on this message board in order to continue arguing the same point is just baffling.

Charistoph wrote:

And if the shooting sequence stops before any shooting is done, what then?

Still waiting on a quote to support the position that a unit with no models shooting, is indeed shooting and satisfies "unit shoots".

And I am still waiting on a definition from you supported by the BRB for . . .

unit shoots

model shoots

This will be interesting because there is no BRB definition for either.

But unless you have terms settled you are in no position to say one definition is dependent on any other.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

And if the shooting sequence stops before any shooting is done, what then?

Still waiting on a quote to support the position that a unit with no models shooting, is indeed shooting and satisfies "unit shoots".

And I am still waiting on a definition from you supported by the BRB for . . .

unit shoots

model shoots

This will be interesting because there is no BRB definition for either.

But unless you have terms settled you are in no position to say one definition is dependent on any other.

Cool so there is no BrB definition for either of those?

So we fall to normal English where shoot means fire shots, which we do have a BrB definition of for models and therefore we no further definition of that for units again we have to use normal English. Therefore a unit shoots by one or more of it's models firing shots, no weapons in range thus means no shooting for the unit. Thank you for conclusively proving that Col. Can we now give up on your temporal impossibility arguments and agree to just follow what the rules say?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

And if the shooting sequence stops before any shooting is done, what then?

Still waiting on a quote to support the position that a unit with no models shooting, is indeed shooting and satisfies "unit shoots".

And I am still waiting on a definition from you supported by the BRB for . . .

unit shoots

model shoots

This will be interesting because there is no BRB definition for either.

But unless you have terms settled you are in no position to say one definition is dependent on any other.

Already provided, but we're not the ones trying to proove a difference of definition, you are. Present the quote, or at least a proper reference.