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I think I've figured out the Lone Wolf / Scout thing in IronWolves:

"You must include enough dedicated transports with sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all non-vehicle models in this Formation."

The key words here: Transport Capacity.
I believe they're doing this for a fluff thing, rather than a strategy thing; that Iron Wolves all come to the field of battle having ridden something, that they are an armoured taskforce capable of high speeds between skirmishes.

Eh?


Also, I'm playing games with IronWolves and Wulfen...

-) Drop pod dual Wulfen squads (Formation) using fastattack pods from a CotgW (WGBL + 2 Servitors) and run the BC's with PowerAxes., in Razorbacks and two Speeders, the longfangs as 30pts in pod, and that's 1000pts.

Wulfen come in turn 1, your two WGBL come in via pod of longfangs (or in each Razorback). Mean list! (Wulfen with 3 great frost axe, 2 with SS+TH).

Better tho, as that's a 1k example of it in action, is 1500 list: Wolf Scouts x2 for elites instead of Servitors.
Scout/Infiltrate them as close as possible. Then, turn 2 they can count for the "engaged" models perfectly. I'm this list I go two Iron Priests w/ 4 wolves and the Hellfrost TH for the HQ of the CotgW. I'm not trying to spam lists for advice, but to show how this Tactic can be employed.

Push their sides with the two scout squads, push their front with the two bloodclaws (for turn 2, can move 6" disembark, having the Razorback screen for them, turn 2 assault) or flatout them screening wolfscouts and count on them being destroyed - if the opponent assaults anything, it'll cause everything to end up in CC on their turn (non-assault vehicles disallow Charges on our turns, says nothing of charges made on opponents turn hehe). Wulfen drop behind their lines, speeders shoot/flatout as best helpful.

2 wulfen, 2 scouts, 2 BC -- all wrapping their main lines. Turn 2 is going to be a lotta fun hehe.

So far it's worked out well, ruined a necron line with it - had really nothing left.

So: potential uses for these formations. Some thoughts on the rules of 'em.

What I am thinking might work well is mixing the murderpack with the starterbox formation. This can possibly be a devastating combination. With possibility of having multiple units charge first turn.

Forgot to add, that the Iron Priests can join the Wolf Scouts during deployment, and take advantage of the Scout move - they get 12" as long as they remain in coherency with the Scouts 6". Then, if the game dictates it necessary to protect your rear (like Drop Pod alphas) then keep the scouts behind and the cyberwolves ahead, and LoS 4+ off the wolves to the scouts to mitigate wounds if need be. Otherwise, simply move an additional 12" out of the unit of scouts during movement, and run forwards to be some 25"+ (yes, in their deployment zone) turn 1, shrink wrapping along with the Wulfen, who have their rear wrapped).

~ Denying them movement before shooting is incredible.

~ Discouraging them assaulting - because of Counter-Charge, awesome. Let them haha

Scouts can either also move forwards (in which case, maybe keep them in wolves?)
Or, they can head backfield for objectives along with speeders, longfangs droppod, and potentially your bloodclaws Razorbacks.

What side you don't swarm, you'll have Razorbacks and Speeders shooting / jinking.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea, I agree. That's not a bad idea at all.

So, I've been trying to noodle lists...

I'm not sure that it isn't just better to go CAD:



You lose counter-charge, but gain Ob-sec.


Or blackmane



Of course, that's 9 pods and I don't own 9 pods.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or Ironwolves. It needs to be trimmed




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The CAD one is actually closest to what I want so far. I just haven't found one that I feel awesome about yet.

I played my Thunderdome list for the very first time yesterday in a ITC game(mission 1):

Wolves Unleash Det: 4 IPs on TWM with 6 cyberwolves and 2 GH in pods, CAD of Sammael with command squad, 2 scout squads in rhinos, and Lib conclave with Tiggy and 2 Lib Bikers.

It was against my friends very competitive list Eldar/Tau list. He had Riptide Wing with Ions, the Skathach WK with Lances, and spam a bunch of spiders and hawks.

Pretty much everything touched by the IP dies, the death star was very fast and those warp spiders can't out run them. Although I did make A LOT of potential game losing mistakes and failed a lot of critical rolls, still end up winning the game thanks to summoning a bunch of daemons every turn LOL (I got primary and tied on maelstrom).

A pure SW army is pretty garbage on its own in terms of competitive play... just sayin

Honestly, going for a couple of those Start Collecting formations, with a Murderpack doesn't save you much in the way of points, but gives you run + assault, in exchange for the +1 WS you would get running it as the Company of the Great Wolf (old CoF supplement formation).

Players choice, I imagine.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Honestly, going for a couple of those Start Collecting formations, with a Murderpack doesn't save you much in the way of points, but gives you run + assault, in exchange for the +1 WS you would get running it as the Company of the Great Wolf (old CoF supplement formation).

Players choice, I imagine.

You can't take multiples in ITC though.

For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Why do you say that they are mistaken? 7 rolls with rerolls with Tiggy; it isn't inconceivable. Most run that many roll attempts for their stars, or less. Only Seer Council gets more chances, really. Daemons get Belakor, sadly, we lost Seth Loth.

Saythings wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Why do you say that they are mistaken? 7 rolls with rerolls with Tiggy; it isn't inconceivable. Most run that many roll attempts for their stars, or less. Only Seer Council gets more chances, really. Daemons get Belakor, sadly, we lost Seth Loth.

What I meant is invisibility alone is not enough protection in ITC, you still need to have good saves. In ITC you can target invisible units with blasts and templates.

Tau marker lights, Helldrakes, anything S8 AP4 are some of the things that will ruin your day. Basically if you want your wulfen to survive, SS are a must which makes them 45 pts per model without weapon upgrades. Thats a lot of points for a infantry unit that can potentially move twice with the murder pack formation. I just don't think they are efficient enough to win in competitive game play.

Ahhh, okay. I misunderstood when you said bringing the conclave for invis wasn't enough. I read it as in "you probably won't get invis with the 3 psykers in a single conclave", not as "a single conclave with invis isn't enough protection".

Agreed. Invis might do the trick at Nova, but you'll definitely need a backup plan in ITC. Like Azrael for 4++ or Fortune for those rerolls, etc. (Obviously Fortune doesn't help SW players, haha! Aww, I made myself sad..)

Saythings wrote:
Ahhh, okay. I misunderstood when you said bringing the conclave for invis wasn't enough. I read it as in "you probably won't get invis with the 3 psykers in a single conclave", not as "a single conclave with invis isn't enough protection".

Agreed. Invis might do the trick at Nova, but you'll definitely need a backup plan in ITC. Like Azrael for 4++ or Fortune for those rerolls, etc. (Obviously Fortune doesn't help SW players, haha! Aww, I made myself sad..)

Yeah if you bring DA allies for H&R, +3" run/charge, and/or the unit wide 4++, you have to drop a formation since you can only have up to 3 formations in ITC/Nova.

Wolves unleash/CotGW are def required in order to spam Iron Priests.

So would you want to drop the murder pack or the conclave?

I'm toying with CotGW (4 IPs, 12 Wolves, 2x5 Wolf Guard on Bikes with 2 Wolf LCs on Sergs, FA Pod) // DA CAD (Chappy on Bike, 2x5 Scouts, Command Bikes, Azrael) // Culexus

Wolf Guard on bikes are what I'm toying with for Warp Spider hunting and a last ditch effort Wraithknight executioner.

Wolf guard bikes jink every turn. Don't shoot their TL Bolters and charge Warp Spiders. With WS5 and +1 Str and Shred, the serg kills 3 on averages and the rest of the squad has the fighting power to kill the rest.

In a pinch, they can even wound a Wraithknight with 3s to hit, 6s to wound, rerolls with shred and only a FnP saves striking at I4. It's not the worst thing.

My local meta has two Eldar Seer Council lists so I need answers to the Council, a WK, and 3x5 Spiders if I want a chance at the top tables. But my local might be a little more competitive than others. Haha.

Edit: Clarifications.

Saythings wrote:
I'm toying with CotGW (4 IPs, 12 Wolves, 2x5 Wolf Guard on Bikes with 2 Wolf LCs on Sergs, FA Pod) // DA CAD (Chappy on Bike, 2x5 Scouts, Command Bikes, Azrael) // Culexus

Wolf Guard on bikes are what I'm toying with for Warp Spider hunting and a last ditch effort Wraithknight executioner.

Wolf guard bikes jink every turn. Don't shoot their TL Bolters and charge Warp Spiders. With WS5 and +1 Str and Shred, the serg kills 3 on averages and the rest of the squad has the fighting power to kill the rest.

In a pinch, they can even wound a Wraithknight with 3s to hit, 6s to wound, rerolls with shred and only a FnP saves striking at I4. It's not the worst thing.

My local meta has two Eldar Seer Council lists so I need answers to the Council, a WK, and 3x5 Spiders if I want a chance at the top tables. But my local might be a little more competitive than others. Haha.

Edit: Clarifications.

12 cyber wolves with 4++ and FNP may be sufficient to protect the wolfstar without invisibility but like most lists with a BIG star, it has a low units count. In ITC/Nova missions that are more objective heavy, you might struggle because all your opponent has to do is avoid the deathstar and wipe out the rest of your army, thus can cause you to fall behind on maelstrom and primary if the opponent has more objsec units.

The WK will die to 4 IP, so don't worry about that as long you have some cyberwolves to tank all his attacks. The Seer council might be tricky because they can turbo boost out of harms way and go after your back field. Also without invis, your ICs are susceptible to Mind war and after he takes out Azrael and the DA apothecary, the deathstar will be severely weaken.

No doubt in my mind they will try all of that. I mean I don't expect them to sit around and do nothing. Every list has it's weaknesses. Of course once they kill my 4++ and my FNP, my wolfstar will slowly widdle away, that's why it's up to me to make that as difficult as possible.

New ITC missions are allowing you to roll up 3 Maelstroms and pick 2 of them. This is going to help killy deathstars a little bit for getting backfield objectives and hopefully a kill a unit or 2.

The Bikes are for hunting Warpspiders and I'll make a judgement call when to break off an IP to hunt a Warpspider squad. I was just telling everyone how I'm trying out the new codex (Elite to HQ IP change). I think the solo Servitors are just way to easy to kill for "Kill a Unit" or Kill Point games. Nova even has a secondary that is Kill Points that I'd rather not give away every game.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Lib conclave gets you H&R.

True, White Scars conclave does give you HnR. I believe it was an oversight since a lot of Wolfstars run with Tiggy for the greater chance of rolling up Invis!

3 rolls, rerolling and another reroll for doubles with Tiggy gives you a silly amount of chances to get Invis. Much better than 2 chances on each libby (x3).

Do any of you guys have the iPad version of the Space Wolves codex?

This supplement and this thread just makes me sad. Initially I was excited, but once I sat down to make lists and realized just how large a tax the Great Companies are and how disjointed they are with units that don't really work together being forced into one formation, it made me sad.

Countercharge would be great.... in a thunderwolf heavy list. Too bad they barely exist as far as this supplement goes.

I was hoping I could come in here and see someone has some amazing insight that I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

What's really amazing is how this is supposed to be a Space Wolves release, but it's a poor copy and paste job that didn't even update basics like the dreadnoughts and didn't add anything to the codex, yet Daemons got basically four new armies. Each god got artifacts, warlord traits, psychic tables, and the decurion and formations all have some great rules.

Looks like I'll keep my wolf list the same and on the shelf while I continue to enjoy playing daemons.

Sorry this wasn't helpful in any way and pretty much repeated whats beens aid already, but I just needed to vent a bit.

Wulfen need allies, such as DAs imo. Im considering a Mini wulfen star with Samuel, and the rest MSU bikers with Rune priests or Iron preists, havnt decided yet. The wulfen are deceptively quick, with a scout move, then as they are in the formation can potentially move twice or move an extra 6 inches from the move and run, plus another 3 inches for their run from samuels warlord trait. The unit could potentially move 27 inches and still assault! Thats pretty quick! They have Samuel to tank up the front, with a re rollable jink save, and Hit & run to keep them going!!

stewy37 wrote:
This supplement and this thread just makes me sad. Initially I was excited, but once I sat down to make lists and realized just how large a tax the Great Companies are and how disjointed they are with units that don't really work together being forced into one formation, it made me sad.

Countercharge would be great.... in a thunderwolf heavy list. Too bad they barely exist as far as this supplement goes.

I was hoping I could come in here and see someone has some amazing insight that I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

What's really amazing is how this is supposed to be a Space Wolves release, but it's a poor copy and paste job that didn't even update basics like the dreadnoughts and didn't add anything to the codex, yet Daemons got basically four new armies. Each god got artifacts, warlord traits, psychic tables, and the decurion and formations all have some great rules.

Looks like I'll keep my wolf list the same and on the shelf while I continue to enjoy playing daemons.

Sorry this wasn't helpful in any way and pretty much repeated whats beens aid already, but I just needed to vent a bit.

Well again your not going build a tier 1 list from this codex alone, not in the competitive meta. You will need to allied in other factions and formations to create good synergy, that is what so good about playing Imperials.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Well again your not going build a tier 1 list from this codex alone, not in the competitive meta. You will need to allied in other factions and formations to create good synergy, that is what so good about playing Imperials.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting to compete at the top with them, but I guess I'm frustrated with the lack of real options it gives you. Initially my response was "Whoah! Look at all the cool stuff!" Then, as I started to actually dig into it, I realized that the great packs are a 1500-2000 point tax, and then you aren't even able to bring any of the cool new formations along with it unless you're playing 2500 points or higher. So, if you want to take the Wyrdstorm Brotherhood or one of the other formations, your best bet is to add it to a CAD. Also, the greatpacks aren't that different from the core force I was taking already. They just require more basic choices and less of the really cool fun ones.

It is very strange for the wolves, that when things are getting ramped up with power creep. They get a super formation detachment that does not really offer anything. Also the formations are mediocre to terrible.

Yeah... the Formations cost a TON of tax.
I've been trying around with Iron Wolves lately, but after a few weeks and many games, i'm just kinda going back to my lists pre-Wulfen (tho including Wulfen hehe)

I don't really find that much of it to be tax. Some of it isn't great sure but it's not that bad. But that might just be my area.

The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

oz of the north wrote:
The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

Except when paired with Wulfen.

oz of the north wrote:
The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

I don't mind them that much. Particuarly with the Deathwolves formation.