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 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

And Eldar can run and shoot with Fleet, not to mention their jetbikes. And Space Marines can have an un-manned Drop Pod (that was free) score them objectives. And Tau kick back with a cold one and shoot you before you can get to them. And Daemons can have 2+ rerollable Invulns that aren't ignorable, as well as being invisible.

Your point?

My point is simply that FNP would have been fine and still would be fine. Making it undeniable removed any amount of counterplay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

And Eldar can run and shoot with Fleet, not to mention their jetbikes. And Space Marines can have an un-manned Drop Pod (that was free) score them objectives. And Tau kick back with a cold one and shoot you before you can get to them. And Daemons can have 2+ rerollable Invulns that aren't ignorable, as well as being invisible.

Your point?

My point is simply that FNP would have been fine and still would be fine. Making it undeniable removed any amount of counterplay.

Or leave it as it was before, which had counter play, worked perfectly fine and added flavor to the army.
Why remove a unique rule from an army that makes them stand out? Are marines the only army allowed to have unique rules?

I've seen this happen before with nids. Before they had living ammunition, which was a neat little unique rule. Now they are the same as everyone else, and they lost some of their flavor because of it.

The CSM too. The 3.5 book was amazing, as it had functional and fluffy rules there were pretty fun to use. You could summon daemons, there was a favored number mechanic where if you organized a marked squad into the favored number of their respective god they got a bonus. Hell, there was even a set of special rules for each of the traitor legions.
Now? Boring random table bs.

What was living ammunition?

pm713 wrote:
What was living ammunition?

It was a rule that tyranids had back then, 4th ed I think.
It applied to nearly all of their ranged weapons, and allowed them to reroll ones on the to wound roll, iirc.
Its because they tend to shoot carnivorous parasites, and those tend not to give up when failing to eat someone's spleen.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

My point is simply that FNP would have been fine and still would be fine. Making it undeniable removed any amount of counterplay.

Or leave it as it was before, which had counter play, worked perfectly fine and added flavor to the army.
Why remove a unique rule from an army that makes them stand out? Are marines the only army allowed to have unique rules?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

My point is simply that FNP would have been fine and still would be fine. Making it undeniable removed any amount of counterplay.

Or leave it as it was before, which had counter play, worked perfectly fine and added flavor to the army.
Why remove a unique rule from an army that makes them stand out? Are marines the only army allowed to have unique rules?

The old RP was not very flavorful. Any skilled player could play the game and not let you make a single RP roll. Woohoo for ignorable special rules. My Immortals were essentially Space Marines. At least a basic FNP roll is less ignorable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Exactly, counter play.
Old RP was fine.

Counter play by removing the only flavorful rule they had? I can't remove or ignore Battle Focus, or Supporting Fire.

The old rule meant opponents had to concentrate on a single unit at a time, often overconcentrate, and hiding a single dude meant the whole squad still had a chance to come back. It required a specific tactic to counter, as opposed to simply being always on with no way to neutralize it. The current version os absurdly autopilot easy.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Exactly, counter play.
Old RP was fine.

Counter play by removing the only flavorful rule they had? I can't remove or ignore Battle Focus, or Supporting Fire.

Its not removing, they still have it. If your squad survives they get to make the roll.
Much like how if you kill enough eldar they won't get to use their special rules either.

Besides, as I mentioned before, if they really wanted some mechanic to negate that weakness, they should have given spyders their 3rd ed function of repair bots back.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The old rule meant opponents had to concentrate on a single unit at a time, often overconcentrate, and hiding a single dude meant the whole squad still had a chance to come back. It required a specific tactic to counter, as opposed to simply being always on with no way to neutralize it.

And again, you cannot ignore special rules of other armies. IG orders, Battle Focus, Supporting Fire, Power from Pain, 'Ere We Go, ATSKNF, ext. Those are "always on" and cannot be ignored by the opponent.

The current version is absurdly autopilot easy.

I won't disagree. But then again, certain armies are autopilot easy. In fact, certain game modes are autopilot easy. 40k is about 10% tactics now.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The old rule meant opponents had to concentrate on a single unit at a time, often overconcentrate, and hiding a single dude meant the whole squad still had a chance to come back. It required a specific tactic to counter, as opposed to simply being always on with no way to neutralize it. The current version os absurdly autopilot easy.

This too. The old RP demanded a specific set of tactics to deal with and use.
Now its pretty boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The old rule meant opponents had to concentrate on a single unit at a time, often overconcentrate, and hiding a single dude meant the whole squad still had a chance to come back. It required a specific tactic to counter, as opposed to simply being always on with no way to neutralize it.

And again, you cannot ignore special rules of other armies. IG orders, Battle Focus, Supporting Fire, Power from Pain, 'Ere We Go, ATSKNF, ext. Those are "always on" and cannot be ignored by the opponent.

The current version is absurdly autopilot easy.

I won't disagree. But then again, certain armies are autopilot easy. In fact, certain game modes are autopilot easy. 40k is about 10% tactics now.

Supporting Fire - Break the chain. Its still only 6" away, right? So hit a target that's not within 6", or damage the surrounding units in such a way that they don't get it.
Power from pain - Takes a while to proc. Eliminate the units that need it the most.
IG orders - Kill the commander. No orders

So those you can negate.

Can't ignore 'Ere we go, but that its fairly luck dependent. Not to mention that there is a difference in potency.

ATSKNF - Can't ignore it, but its very situational, that only procs when fleeing. Still not comparable to RP, which procs whenever a model dies. Which happens more often.

Battle Focus - Can't ignore it, but its luck dependent. Aren't eldar small arms short ranged anyway

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The old rule meant opponents had to concentrate on a single unit at a time, often overconcentrate, and hiding a single dude meant the whole squad still had a chance to come back. It required a specific tactic to counter, as opposed to simply being always on with no way to neutralize it.

And again, you cannot ignore special rules of other armies. IG orders, Battle Focus, Supporting Fire, Power from Pain, 'Ere We Go, ATSKNF, ext. Those are "always on" and cannot be ignored by the opponent.

You absolutely can do something about IG orders, kill the command squads. In fact, its possible to build IG armies without orders available at all. Most of the other abilities are either nowhere near as powerful as RP, or do have ways to work around them (e.g. power from pain, target the units that benefit most before the pfp ability they want kicks in).

I won't disagree. But then again, certain armies are autopilot easy. In fact, certain game modes are autopilot easy. 40k is about 10% tactics now.

And thats a problem. Nobody is saying that such tbings are unique to Necrons, but Necrons are one of the most stellar examples of this sort of poor game design.

I dunno, I like the absurdity of the special rules now. There's still some balancing points that should be made with the 7.5 codices (why aren't Helbrutes 4 bloody attacks base?), you fix those and 40k feels an awful lot like the fluff.

40k feels further from te fluff in many ways than ever, particularly with the scale so confused and increasingly trying to drag itself bigger and bigger while also cramming more and more detail into units that simply die before they can do anything. Even with the 7.5E books, there are huge balance issues, and theres certainly far less fluff and feel options for things like IG regiments, Ork Clans, Chaos Legions, etc than in eras past. It's mostly scale and power bloat.

 Vaktathi wrote:
40k feels further from te fluff in many ways than ever, particularly with the scale so confused and increasingly trying to drag itself bigger and bigger while also cramming more and more detail into units that simply die before they can do anything. Even with the 7.5E books, there are huge balance issues, and theres certainly far less fluff and feel options for things like IG regiments, Ork Clans, Chaos Legions, etc than in eras past. It's mostly scale and power bloat.

This is so unfortunately true.

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

It does get reduced to 6+ by force, D and double toughness.

Of course, Sisters have a 6++ save against absolutely everything too, but strangely, nobody ever complains about that being broken...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

It does get reduced to 6+ by force, D and double toughness.

Of course, Sisters have a 6++ save against absolutely everything too, but strangely, nobody ever complains about that being broken...

You don't get RP at all against StrD

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

It does get reduced to 6+ by force, D and double toughness.

Of course, Sisters have a 6++ save against absolutely everything too, but strangely, nobody ever complains about that being broken...

But that is just a 6++ not a 5++ and you take it instead of armour or cover rather as well as other saves.

pm713 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RP is a special 5 + save than can't be denied by double toughness or force weapons. It can be increased to a 4+ from decurion but that bonus is negated by force and double toughness. Basically Necrons always get a save unless they are stomped out by a titan or a 6 is rolled on a d weapon. This is absurd.

It does get reduced to 6+ by force, D and double toughness.

Of course, Sisters have a 6++ save against absolutely everything too, but strangely, nobody ever complains about that being broken...

But that is just a 6++ not a 5++ and you take it instead of armour or cover rather as well as other saves.

RP is only a 6++ against things that would ignore FnP, too... and Sisters can get FnP relatively easily as well.

Oh stop moaning about necrons. It's boring. We don't get infantry with heavy weapons, grenades, D strength weapons, we attack at I2, our elites are expensive, we have strengths, we have weakenesses, I don't know why I'm using 'we' but there we go please stop.

A gauss grenade would be pretty awesome though.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Oh stop moaning about necrons. It's boring. We don't get infantry with heavy weapons, grenades, D strength weapons, we attack at I2, our elites are expensive, we have strengths, we have weakenesses, I don't know why I'm using 'we' but there we go please stop.

Because there is more than one Necron player here, I suppose.

Also, your user title fits this post perfectly. XD

Ffyllotek wrote:
Oh stop moaning about necrons. It's boring. We don't get infantry with heavy weapons,

Gauss gives replaces much of the necessity for this, and with units like Immortals sporting S5 AP4 weaponry, the need for such weapons is dramatically lessened. Necron units may not have super long range weapons, but their infantry based firepower output isn't lacking.

grenades

The way most Necron units work they wouldn't add much. My Guardsmen come with grenades, they don't actually do anything though.

D strength weapons

Aside from Eldar most armies don't...

we attack at I2

Which doesn't hurt too much in most cases given how difficult casualties are to inflict, and there are workarounds in some respects (e.g. Wraiths with upgrades attacking at I5).

our elites are expensive

Elites typically are, this is true for every army.

we have strengths, we have weakenesses, I don't know why I'm using 'we' but there we go please stop.

Would you like to actually refute an argument or specific point or did you just want to shut down a conversation you don't like?

You're grossly overvaluing Gauss, Vaktathi. It is the reason why Rhinos are ironically a good choice against Necron armies.

Everyone else just kinda pops them.

I dont find that Rhinos or Chimeras last any longer against Necrons than against anyone else. If the Necron player is making Gauss their *only* source of AT, then they might have an issue (just as would any SM player who made Tactical Squad weaponry their only source of AT), but between Gauss, CC attacks from stuff like Wraiths, mased S7 shooting and a couple dedicated AT weapons, Necrons do just fine. Gauss functions well enough within its rangeband to strip HP's as well as most other Troops if not better, they just dont have the ability to pen and explode, which is relatively minor.

They certainly arent having problems with things like mech IG armies with 15 tanks on the field, in fact, thats probably one of the easiest for Necrons to wipe.

Yes, but is that due to the gauss rule, or due to the vehicle rules?
The problem with gauss is that its unreliable compared to dedicated AT, not only in terms in effectiveness but also in terms of the core vehicle rules.

A lascannon will always retain some degree of effectiveness, but gauss is entirely at the mercy of the core rules

In 4th ed, gauss was effective
in 5th, it was no longer effective
in 6th and 7th its effective again due to the terrible HP rules

What if in 8th they buffed vehicles again? Gauss would no longer be a decent AT option.

It should really be changed from a 1/6 chance of inflicting a glance, to giving the option to combine multiple hits against a single model into a single, stronger hit.
(Note that I wrote model and not unit - getting S9 hits against squads of infantry from flayers would be silly)

Sort of like the scourge warrior rule from DzC, except with modifiers instead of a set strength score, to account for the different strength values of gauss weapons.
Note that this may result in Heavy Gauss cannons becoming Strength D. Because I'm a sadist :3

The idea would be the same, shoot enough at a tank and it blows up, just not as dependent on the core rules.
It also gives a really cool mental image of warriors just pouring fire into a tank, and its getting ripped apart from concentrated fire.

I remembered another reason why I liked the old RP / WBB; there was an odd tactile satisfaction in knocking the models over, and then standing them back up when you made your roll.
Song related

It is also the reason that there's nothing dedicated to anti-MC with guns outside the Deathmarks: GW overvalues being able to just wound.

 krodarklorr wrote:

IG orders, [...] are "always on" and cannot be ignored by the opponent.

Bad example. I can fail my roll, I can even fail it so spectacularly that I lose my special rule for the rest of the turn. Also IG aren't Ld10 across the board. It's definitely not always on.

I totally agree with the guy that's talking about power bloat, it's unreal in this edition.

turbolaser wrote:
Due to fact they have incredibly overpowered Gauss weaponry and devastating spaceships , self repair nano bots, imagine millions of necrons , they are nearly unstoppable?

Necrold overlord leading, is there anything more deadly than Necrod full strength raid?

Fluff wise?

I'd say the Tyranids are unstoppable since the Necron overlords still fight amongst themselves. 'Nids have no such drawback, they are one, they are legion. They don't need to resurrect because there's always 2 to take the place of one, and that one is recycled into biomass. The Shadow in the Warp pretty much nullifies all psychic ability (Go away Tiggy, that didn't happen). Not even Daemons can stand against the legions of Nids, and they are more numerous then Necrons. Plus, Necrons have that whole "Void Dragon" weakness, which wouldn't apply to 'Nids because y'know, not machines.

And this isn't even including a Galactic-Waaagh!. The end of 40K will be the Orks and Tyranids forever locked in battle