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 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

I rather disagree. Being told you cannot do something before that point can be interpreted as permission to do so at that point..

It really, really can't. A few examples of why it can't have been been provided already.

Removal of a restriction removes that restriction. It doesn't open the door... it just removes the barricade from in front of it.

So removing a restriction only results in you being able to do something if you have explicit permission to do that thing.

If it cannot matter to interpretation, then this discussion would not exist. The discussion exists, therefore the interpretation exists. Especially when the restriction is a "stopping point" of actions that are normally allowed through the rest of the area.

Let's say the wording of the restriction could count as granting permission to cast at the end of the phase.

How do you find yourself at the end of the phase? Especially with warp charges left?

I've had the chance to go over all the discussion I missed yesterday, I'm affraid I don't have time to address each of the things there, that I'd like to, individually. There are some posts there that are a reply to some of mine, and I apologize, but encourage you to read my following posts as they will address all of what has been discussed comprehensively.

As always I'd like to humbly ask that you read the following posts with an open mind, carefully, and at a time when you are able to give them your full attention.

I also ask that you read them and consider them one point at a time, and read them from beginning to end: please save any thoughts of "yes, but..." until you are finished reading

There are many, many moving parts to this.

First of all, I'd like to make clear once again that, although it cannot be said that the Rules of 40k have ever stated that they are a permissive ruleset, the requirement of permission as a general principle is self-evident. The specifics of how this general principle is applied must be consistent with logic, and are completely open to debate, but logic itself demands that the general principle of permission is not.

Tenet #6 is also a truth which can be said to be self-evident and logic requires that we accept it as well, with three VERY important caveats:

-In absence of a definition provided by the rules, words are assumed to be defined as they are in the dictionary.
-As words can have a broad meaning, the in-game definitions only supercede the totality of that definition if such is clearly stated. If an in game definition of a word is limited or conditional, it may ONLY supercede the dictionary definitions under the stated limitations or conditions.
-All the other rules of English relating to the use of grammar, sentence structure, etc are permanently and irrevocably in force unless explicitly otherwise stated in the game rules.

You could really sum all of these up under the simple moniker "What the game says, goes. What it doesn't say, doesn't go. Otherwise, use logic"

I hope that these are things we can all agree on. I'm very confident you will also find all of these to be self evident, and we can move forward on that basis. If not, by all means, let's discuss it.but in the abscence of any dissent let's forge ahead...

You could really sum all of these up under the simple moniker "What the game says, goes. What it doesn't say, doesn't go. Otherwise, use your common sense" 

I hope that these are things we can all agree on. I'm very confident you will also find all of these to be self evident, and we can move forward on that basis. If not, by all means, let's discuss it.but in the abscence of any dissent let's forge ahead... 

If we all agreed with your premises, we would likely come to the same logical conclusion. The fact is, "otherwise, use your common sense" is not, by definition, rules as written.

you can use common sense in your games if and your opponent wish. You can make any rule you like if you both agree. What you should not do, is insert permissions that are literally not written in the rules and then claim them as RAW.

By agreeing on the general principle of requiring permissions, you are on track to understanding what we mean by "permissive ruleset"
When you work through all the possible rules interactions in the game, (which is what we do here) you will see how we come to have "rules for reading rules"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yakface explains it better than I do

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

 Charistoph wrote:
The discussion exists, therefore the interpretation exists. .

Sure. That doesn't make the interpretation valid or correct, though.


In saying that the rule in question 'can't' be interpreted as permission, what I mean is that it can't accurately be interpreted as permission.

Again, several examples have been presented as to why this is so. The language just doesn't work that way.

I'm still confused as to how you can get to the end of the psychic phase (which is when the other librarians can cast) without either 1. running out of warp charges or 2. declaring you will take no more psychic actions.

If either 1 or 2 is true, how are you taking psychic actions?

For reference:

I've had the chance to go over all the discussion I missed yesterday, I'm affraid I don't have time to address each of the things there, that I'd like to, individually. There are some posts there that are a reply to some of mine, and I apologize, but encourage you to read my following posts as they will address all of what has been discussed comprehensively.

As always I'd like to humbly ask that you read the following posts with an open mind, carefully, and at a time when you are able to give them your full attention.

I also ask that you read them and consider them one point at a time, and read them from beginning to end: please save any thoughts of "yes, but..." until you are finished reading

There are many, many moving parts to this.

First of all, I'd like to make clear once again that, although it cannot be said that the Rules of 40k have ever stated that they are a permissive ruleset, the requirement of permission as a general principle is self-evident. The specifics of how this general principle is applied must be consistent with logic, and are completely open to debate, but logic itself demands that the general principle of permission is not.

Tenet #6 is also a truth which can be said to be self-evident and logic requires that we accept it as well, with three VERY important caveats:

-In absence of a definition provided by the rules, words are assumed to be defined as they are in the dictionary.
-As words can have a broad meaning, the in-game definitions only supercede the totality of that definition if such is clearly stated. If an in game definition of a word is limited or conditional, it may ONLY supercede the dictionary definitions under the stated limitations or conditions.
-All the other rules of English relating to the use of grammar, sentence structure, etc are permanently and irrevocably in force unless explicitly otherwise stated in the game rules.

You could really sum all of these up under the simple moniker "What the game says, goes. What it doesn't say, doesn't go. Otherwise, use logic"

I hope that these are things we can all agree on. I'm very confident you will also find all of these to be self evident, and we can move forward on that basis. If not, by all means, let's discuss it.but in the abscence of any dissent let's forge ahead...

This is the entirety of my argument, and it supercedes anything I've said before where the two might conflict (with the exception of my previous post directly above introducing this one). I HAVE been wrong on some things which I will get into here

Please guys, resist the temptation of thoughts of "yes, but..." and just continue on down the path with me.

First of all, I'd like to take a comprehensive look at the issues surrounding the use of "end" and "ends" in the rules

The dictionary defines the two senses of the word end differently. The irrevocable rules of English dictate that they must do so, as a noun is not a verb and a verb is not a noun. Even in the case that the noun and verb are said to be references for the same thing, the noun and the verb themselves are NOT the same thing. This is the default state of "end" and "ends' that we MUST accept, unless the rules of the game state otherwise.

The rules ALSO define the verb and the noun separately. Nowhere in the 40k definition of the verb "ends", will you find the use of the noun "end'. Likewise, nowhere in the definition of the noun "end" will you find the verb "ends". Furthermore, nowhere in the rules will you find a statement that the noun and the verb are the same, altering their linguistic default state of being different, and not the same.

The verb "ends" is defined as such:

When the Psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting phase begins

It's clearly stated to consist of, or at the very least include the transitory moment in time where the Psychic Phase becomes the Shooting Phase.

The noun "end" is defined in this way:

Any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase starts

It is clearly stated to be restricted from existing in any part of the next phase including the transitional moment in which it begins

One thing that is clearly stated to exist at a time that another cannot exist, CANNOT be the same thing as the other.

We don't have to establish the timeline or duration of either game event with it's English definition. The conditions set in the 40k definitions will do that for us. The rules of English establish that the two things are separate, but don't forbid them from being functionally the same. the superceding 40k definition Also establishes that the two are indeed different and cannot be the same, and treats them discreetly and separately.

We've been assuming that the "end" and "ends' terminate at the same time, because it's common sense, but the game doesn't define it that way, and that supercedes everything.


Now we are going to address timeline, and permission as it relates to timeline. We will lay some groundwork, and then we will go through the sequence relating to the two examples that have been discussed: That of the desire to cast with other Psykers not within 12", and that of the Nominated Psyker (or any psyker) simply using up the Warp Charge before the player declares he is finished.


Both "end" and " ends" could be, (depending exactly how they defined, both in English and in a ruleset), either a Point OR a Period of time.

We don't have to define whether one is longer than the other, or when they occur relative to each other, or whether they are a point or period of time, with the dictionary, nor can we because the rules do that for us, and it supercedes everything.

The 40k definitions of both the verb and the noun are dependent on in-game conditions which can occur at different times. Therefore the separate 40k definitions of the noun "end' and of the verb "ends" themselves, as they relate to their existence in time, are mutable, in accordance with the existence in time of said conditions.

Please let that sink in for a moment

I read the Psychic phase rules again this morning, and once again, the presence of Warp Charge is the only permission I was able to find for any Psyker to ever manifest at all. Moving forward we will consider the presence of Warp Charge, in absence of restriction, to be the 'liscence to drive" that is required by the general principle (please see my previous post) of a permissive ruleset for Psykers to manifest powers.

Pg 24 BrB:

If after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your psyker units and attempt to manifest a power

Example 1: Exhaustion of Warp Charge

-Generate Warp Charge
-Permission to manifest is granted
-Manifest powers
-Warp Charge is exhausted, and permission to manifest expires simultaneously
-Separate conditions for both the "end" of the phase, and the phase "ends" are met simultaneously and both initiate simultaneously.
-"End of the Phase" resolutions occur
-Warp Charge is lost
-The "end of the Phase" terminates
-The period referred to as the "the Phase Ends" terminates and The Shooting Phase begins simultaneously, as

In this example the "end" is a point or period of time beginning when it's conditions are met by all powers that may be cast being cast. It is defined by 40k as terminating before the transitional moment the Psychic Phase becomes the Shooting Phase.
Here the "phase ends" is a period of time that initiates when it's conditions are met by Warp Charge being exhausted, and ends in the transitional moment that one Phase turns into another

In this case "phase ends" MUST be a period of time because it is required to initiate at the same time as "the end of the Phase" (the End of the Phase" is stated to be "during" the Psychic Phase and "before the shooting phase), and because it is said to exist at the transitional moment the Psychic Phase turns into Shooting Phase, when the "End of the phase" is required to have ended. A point in time cannot exist at two or more points in time. Therefore "the phase ends" as the game defines it cannot be only one point in time, and must be a period of time. A period of time that, in part, includes the period of time called "the end of the phase". because it MUST be a period of time, and the initiation of this period of time extends into the time that resolutions are stated to occur, the resolutions are given time to occur. No Paradox, not even a requirement of "preemption" for those resolutions as I proposed earlier.

Please take some time with that. I had to take A LOT of time with that, but it's inescapable.

Example 2: Formation Psykers Within 12" Wish To Manifest at the End of the Phase

-Generate Warp Charge
-Permission to manifest is granted
-Nominate a Psyker from the formation.
-Permission for other Psykers within 12" is restricted
-The Nominated Psyker and other Psykers NOT within 12", manifest powers,but do not exhaust the pool of Warp Charge
-The Nominated Psyker and other Psykers NOT within 12" are declared to be finished manifesting. The conditions for the "end of the phase" are met and it initiates. The restriction on the other Psykers that ARE within 12' is lifted. The permission is granted for other Psykers within 12" to manifest by the presence of Warp Charge.
These events all take place simultaneously, as the last 3 are triggered by the first.
-The conditions for "the Phase ends" are NOT met at this time because I would like to cast with the other Psykers that ARE within 12, and I am permitted to do so. The Warp Charge Pool does not drain.
-The other Psykers within 12" manifest, and "the end of the phase" resolutions are performed
-Either the other Psykers within 12" are declared to be finished casting, or Warp Charge is exhausted.
-The conditions for "the Phase ends" are now met and the "phase ends" initiates, and The "end of the Phase" terminates simultaneously. If Warp Charge is present it is lost.
-"the Phase ends" terminates and the Shooting Phase begins simultaneously

In this example the "end" is a period of time initiating when actions other than those stated to take place in the "end of the phase" are complete, and terminating before the moment the Psychic phase turns into the Shooting Phase
Here "the phase ends" is a period initiating when the Psykers within 12' are declared to have finished casting, or warp charge is exhausted, and terminating at the moment the Psychic phase turns into the Shooting Phase.


I know this seems like a lot. I'm not looking for Easter Eggs here, I've just been struggling to put into words and prove what I've logically and intuitively known to be true since my very first reading of the relevant rules. I believe I have done so. If I have not, let's discuss it further, but since I've provided proof at every step, I must humbly request that a valid counter argument consist of valid and overriding proof, if you please.











Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:


1 "otherwise, use your common sense" is not, by definition, rules as written.

2What you should not do, is insert permissions that are literally not written in the rules and then claim them as RAW.

1 Agreed. I should have said "use Logic" the application of logic to the rules is a self-evident requirement for the game to function. I will even edit my post to that effect, thank you.

2 I've quite literally not once done that. I may not have explained myself completely, but I invite you to check out the big post I made just now where I deal with permission.

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm still confused as to how you can get to the end of the psychic phase (which is when the other librarians can cast) without either 1. running out of warp charges or 2. declaring you will take no more psychic actions.

If either 1 or 2 is true, how are you taking psychic actions?

Because, he honestly believes that if you have no written permission, but think a particular action makes sense, then that is as good as having permission


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-The Nominated Psyker and other Psykers not within 12" are declared to be finished manifesting, the conditions for the "end of the phase" are met and it initiates. The restriction on the other Psykers within 12' is lifted, the permission is granted for other Psykers within 12" to manifest by the presence of Warp Charge. These events all take place simultaneously, as they are triggered by the same event. 

And there it is. This example does not match up with the rule "The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions."

If YOU choose not to. Not a model/unit chooses not to. YOU. If you have forced the end by choosing not to cast anymore powers, casting more powers goes against your choice.

Also, if you wish to use the possession of WC as a permission and not just a condition, you still have to show where, in the sequence of casting, you are told you can do it at the "end of the phase" as is required to do anything at the "end of the phase"

 Weboflies wrote:

-The Nominated Psyker and other Psykers not within 12" are declared to be finished manifesting, the conditions for the "end of the phase" are met and it initiates.

The conditions for the 'end of phase' are that you either a)have no more Warp Charges or b)state that you are finished casting.

Not just 'finished casting with these specific psykers'... You're finished.

So your entire argument is hinging on the idea that declaring that you have finished casting psychic powers allows you to cast more psychic powers.


And, once again:

The restriction on the other Psykers within 12' is lifted, the permission is granted for other Psykers within 12" to manifest by the presence of Warp Charge.

The removal of a restriction only removes that restriction. It does not grant permission to do anything other than ignore that specific restriction.

Happyjew wrote:I'm still confused as to how you can get to the end of the psychic phase (which is when the other librarians can cast) without either 1. running out of warp charges or 2. declaring you will take no more psychic actions.

If either 1 or 2 is true, how are you taking psychic actions?

I don't know if this was directed at myself or the OP, but in case it was me, I will try to answer...

As I tried to imply, it is conditional on how lenient you wish to be. If you want the most lenient interpretation of it, the remaining Psykers involved in the Channeling are allowed to Cast after all other Psykers have been determined/declared to be complete. This is the most liberal/lenient of the interpretations that can be allowed.

And do note, that I did point those things out several times.

jokerkd wrote:Because, he honestly believes that if you have no written permission, but think a particular action makes sense, then that is as good as having permission

Ah, with the misrepresentation. Please stop. Seriously.

 Charistoph wrote:

Happyjew wrote:I'm still confused as to how you can get to the end of the psychic phase (which is when the other librarians can cast) without either 1. running out of warp charges or 2. declaring you will take no more psychic actions.

If either 1 or 2 is true, how are you taking psychic actions?

I don't know if this was directed at myself or the OP, but in case it was me, I will try to answer...

As I tried to imply, it is conditional on how lenient you wish to be. If you want the most lenient interpretation of it, the remaining Psykers involved in the Channeling are allowed to Cast after all other Psykers have been determined/declared to be complete. This is the most liberal/lenient of the interpretations that can be allowed.

And do note, that I did point those things out several times.

jokerkd wrote:Because, he honestly believes that if you have no written permission, but think a particular action makes sense, then that is as good as having permission

Ah, with the misrepresentation. Please stop. Seriously.

Would you like me to quote the post for you? It's been quoted or referred to twice already. It's not a misrepresentation at all. That is what he said
I have the appended post in which he agreed it was maybe just a poor choice of words. But that happened after my post

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you are making the incorrect assumption I am talking about you. In which case, please stop. Seriously.

 jokerkd wrote:

Because, he honestly believes that if you have no written permission, but think a particular action makes sense, then that is as good as having permission

Please reread my post. You are completely mischaracterising my statements and what you've said here is simply not true. Also, the other person you quoted here posed that question before I made my big reply here, and my reply ansers his question.

And there it is. This example does not match up with the rule "The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions."

If YOU choose not to. Not a model/unit chooses not to. YOU. If you have forced the end by choosing not to cast anymore powers, casting more powers goes against your choice.

I choose not to cast anymore with The nominated Psyker and those NOT within 12", but I do choose to cast with the Psykers that ARE within 12" . I only need to choose not to perform actions OTHER than those that are said to take place at "the end of the phase"

The other Psykers within 12" casting at the "end of the Phase" is in the Formation Rules where it states the restriction lasts "until the end of the phase".

The Warp charge points THEMSELVES give me permission to cast at "the end of the phase" if they are present.

Abscence of restriction + Presence of Permission = Permission

If it's permitted to happen, and I decide to do it, it happens.

The Psykers have permission, and that permission CANNOT exist until the end of the phase, therefore Psykers within 12" casting CANNOT occur before "the end of the Phase", and that action CANNOT be included in "all other actions" than those happening at the "end of the phase", and the desire to perform that action CANNOT violate the condition to bring about "the end of the phase".

it's not an action other than those that take place at the end. It takes place at the end.

If i want to do something at the end of the phase, you can't say that the time that I want to do that thing is before the end of the phase. I want to do it at the only time that I can. The end of the phase

Also, if you wish to use the possession of WC as a permission and not just a condition, you still have to show where, in the sequence of casting, you are told you can do it at the "end of the phase" as is required to do anything at the "end of the phase"

The statement Immediately above this quote explain this as well.


I'm very sorry for the caps, I've just had to say this so many, many times now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

-The Nominated Psyker and other Psykers not within 12" are declared to be finished manifesting, the conditions for the "end of the phase" are met and it initiates.

The conditions for the 'end of phase' are that you either a)have no more Warp Charges or b)state that you are finished casting.

You're cofusing "the end of the Phase" and "the phase ends" those are the conditions for "the phase ends" not "the end of the phase" They're different things as I have proven.
And, once again:

The restriction on the other Psykers within 12' is lifted, the permission is granted for other Psykers within 12" to manifest by the presence of Warp Charge.

The removal of a restriction only removes that restriction. It does not grant permission to do anything other than ignore that specific restriction.

Someone spends a day researching word definitions in the dictionary and writes a thesis on why he's right and all I can think about is -

"That's a hell of a lot of effort to go to to make sure no one ever wants to play against you"

RAW FORGE DAT NARRATIVE BRA. You're playing with plastic spacemen, not trying to lawyer your opponent out of a game.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the neckbeard"

 Charistoph wrote:


As I tried to imply, it is conditional on how lenient you wish to be. If you want the most lenient interpretation of it, the remaining Psykers involved in the Channeling are allowed to Cast after all other Psykers have been determined/declared to be complete. This is the most liberal/lenient of the interpretations that can be allowed.

I appreciate your support here, but I have to politely object to referring to my position as an "interpretation" particularly a lenient one. I'd really like to encourage you to read the long post over again. I think you'll find all that's in it are the rules themselves, and conclusions that are 100% required by the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nimak83 wrote:
Someone spends a day researching word definitions in the dictionary and writes a thesis on why he's right and all I can think about is -

"That's a hell of a lot of effort to go to to make sure no one ever wants to play against you"

RAW FORGE DAT NARRATIVE BRA. You're playing with plastic spacemen, not trying to lawyer your opponent out of a game.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the neckbeard"

That isn't true. I clearly stated in the long post above that the rules throw the dictionary definitions out the window, and I rely only on the 40k rule definitions of those words.

I'd never go this far with this in the context of a game. This sort of thing is what the internet is for.

Please reread my post. You are completely mischaracterising my statements and what you've said here is simply not true. Also, the other person you quoted here posed that question before I made my big reply here, and my reply ansers his question. 

No, you misrepresented your own opinion, which you later edited because you agreed it was wrong.
That did not happen until after i made that post.

At the time, that was the only logical way to interpret "if the rules say you can, you can. If the rules don't say you can, you can't. Otherwise, use common sense"
That last part, whichever term you want to use, is not allowed RAW. The only exception to the first two sentences is when the rulebook removes previously granted permissions with restrictions

 jokerkd wrote:

Please reread my post. You are completely mischaracterising my statements and what you've said here is simply not true. Also, the other person you quoted here posed that question before I made my big reply here, and my reply ansers his question. 

No, you misrepresented your own opinion, which you later edited because you agreed it was wrong.
That did not happen until after i made that post.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I did edit that, thanked you for pointing it out, and I told everyone I was editing it because you were right, and "common sense" was not the right way to put it.

You must have made the post I objected to while I was correcting the other post, and I guess I must have falsely assumed you had already read my retraction when you wrote it.

That last part, whichever term you want to use, is not allowed RAW. The only exception to the first two sentences is when the rulebook removes previously granted permissions with restrictions

Are you saying that logic doesn't have to apply to the rules? Really? What are we talking about here then? If the application of the rules doesn't have to bear logic the whole game breaks down. We have to accept the principle of a permissive ruleset, but the application of the rules don't have to be logical? The principle of a permissive ruleset is based on logic itself! It's a truth that is self evident. As someone else pointed out, the Rules don't say they're in English either. It's a truth that is self-evident. I suppose the rules could say something that defies logic, and that would be the rules, but if they don't ie: 'otherwise', as I said in that post, logic has to apply for the game to work.

 Weboflies wrote:

I appreciate your support here, but I have to politely object to referring to my position as an "interpretation" particularly a lenient one. I'd really like to encourage you to read the long post over again. I think you'll find all that's in it are the rules themselves, and conclusions that are 100% required by the rules.

However accurate (or not) it may be, it's still an interpretation of the written rules. This would still be the case even if it was the only possible way to read them.

If you intend to cast more powers, you are not choosing to not cast anymore powers

 insaniak wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

I appreciate your support here, but I have to politely object to referring to my position as an "interpretation" particularly a lenient one. I'd really like to encourage you to read the long post over again. I think you'll find all that's in it are the rules themselves, and conclusions that are 100% required by the rules.

However accurate (or not) it may be, it's still an interpretation of the written rules. This would still be the case even if it was the only possible way to read them.

True. A correct interpretation is still an interpretation, but I guess I object to the connotation of it. That certainly casts doubt, especially when you qualify it as lenient, lenient suggest another interpretation that is stricter, and equally valid. That's kind of what i protest the most here.. No one else has provided proof that their 'interpretation' is correct in a way that is consistent with RaW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
If you intend to cast more powers, you are not choosing to not cast anymore powers

I'll go over it once more:

I choose not to cast anymore with The nominated Psyker and those NOT within 12", but I DO choose to cast with the Psykers that ARE within 12" . I only need to choose not to perform actions OTHER than those that are said to take place at "the end of the phase"

The other Psykers within 12" casting at the "end of the Phase" is in the Formation Rules where it states the restriction lasts "until the end of the phase".

The Warp charge points themselves give me permission to cast at "the end of the phase" if they are present.

Abscence of restriction + Presence of Permission = Permission

If it's permitted to happen, and I decide to do it, it happens.it's not an action [i]other than those that take place at the end. It takes place at the end.[/i]

Repeating the same arguments add infinitum isn't going to change anyone's minds here, so given that nothing new is being added at this point, I think it's time we all moved on.