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What do we call the point at which something ends, in common english?

 jokerkd wrote:
So, it's no jump of logic to say that "the phase has ended" is the same as saying " you've reached the end of the phase"

Agreed, but the rules don't say "the phase has ended" anywhere. Nor do they say the "end of the phase has been reached" It's the use of the verb "reached" which carries the implication of total finality, and makes them seem to carry the same meaning. They DO say things "happen at", or are not permitted "until" "the end of the phase" (which the very rules themselves describe as being "during the turn"),and they DO say "the phase ends" and describe that point in time in completely different terms.

I think we've very conclusively established the two things that the rules DO say, are not interchangeable, don't have the same meaning, or the same conditions.

It's also important to note that the description of the "end of the phase" as a time where things "happen" "during the turn" totally disqualifies any implication of total finality in that time.

 Weboflies wrote:

I'm sorry, it's clear you're not unstanding what I'm saying about the sequence, and about the "end of the phase" and the time that the phase "ends" being separate and having separate rules and conditions for arrival and thus separate places in the timeline. I think you might find the reply to Nosferatu 1001 with all the caps (that is appended into my big reply to jokerkd) like 5 posts up there explains that better, followed by a re-reading of the two bold paragraphs in the jokerkd reply.

No, I understand your point... I just disagree with it.

The end of the phase is the end of the phase. If you cast further psychic powers after you've reached the end of the phase, it's rather self-evidently not the end of the phase.

 jokerkd wrote:
What do we call the point at which something ends, in common english?

The "end"

I think that would be a really excellent point if the rules themselves didn't describe the "end of the phase" in a completely different way, and If the rules themselves referred to a "point at which the phase ends" (they do not). Once again, the word "point" is a noun, making that statement seem intercangeable with the noun "end".

The rules simply state "the turn ends": no noun there to colour the meaning of the verb and bring commonality or interchangeability with the noun "end".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

I'm sorry, it's clear you're not unstanding what I'm saying about the sequence, and about the "end of the phase" and the time that the phase "ends" being separate and having separate rules and conditions for arrival and thus separate places in the timeline. I think you might find the reply to Nosferatu 1001 with all the caps (that is appended into my big reply to jokerkd) like 5 posts up there explains that better, followed by a re-reading of the two bold paragraphs in the jokerkd reply.

No, I understand your point... I just disagree with it.

The end of the phase is the end of the phase. If you cast further psychic powers after you've reached the end of the phase, it's rather self-evidently not the end of the phase.

a noun is not a verb and a verb is not a noun, and the noun and the verb have been described completely separately, and completely differently in game terms.

There's nothing in English, or 40k, or Reason to make these two specific iterations of the words "end' and "ends" the same. Nothing anyone has been able to find yet. Jokerkd and I are working through a bunch of mental exercises, but nothing that can prove they are the same yet, and a lot to prove they are not the same. We were just talking about the use of the words "reached the end of the phase" that you've used here. You might like to check out our back and forth on that.

So, given literally noone agrees with you, and you've apparently been "humouring" us again, maybe just stop

You literally are not convincing a single poster here. Noone.

I have no permission to cast psychic powers after stating I will not cast more psychic powers. Because to do otherwise means I lied.

How else do you reach the end of the psychic phase? You only have two methods to reach it, neither of which results in you being able to cast any more powers

DOnt use caps. Headache inducing. Just learn to use the QUOTE tags.

 Weboflies wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
You still don't have permission to cast during the "end of phase"

the end of the phase is only mentioned as a point in time when the restriction is lifted. It does not grant permission to cast out of sequence with the standard psychic phase rules

Lifting a restriction, is a grant of permission. It can mean nothing else.

Lifting a restriction simply means that said restriction is lifted. Any other restriction is still in place and you still need general permission to do whatever you wish to do. And you have no permission to actually cast anything at the end of the psychic phase, only during the psychic phase.

A tempo limit being lifted does not give you the permission to drive a car (at any speed) if you lost your drivers license (not the papers, the actual license).

nekooni wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
You still don't have permission to cast during the "end of phase"

the end of the phase is only mentioned as a point in time when the restriction is lifted. It does not grant permission to cast out of sequence with the standard psychic phase rules

Lifting a restriction, is a grant of permission. It can mean nothing else.

Lifting a restriction simply means that said restriction is lifted. Any other restriction is still in place and you still need general permission to do whatever you wish to do. And you have no permission to actually cast anything at the end of the psychic phase, only during the psychic phase.

A tempo limit being lifted does not give you the permission to drive a car (at any speed) if you lost your drivers license (not the papers, the actual license).

The rules clearly state the "end of the Phase"(NOUN) is during the turn. They clearly state that at that time the restriction is lifted. They clearly state the Warp Charge that I have left does grant permission, and that charge is not yet lost, because the conditions for "the Phase ends"(VERB) which is not the same thing as "the end of the phase"(NOUN) which is a separate, mutually exclusive sense of the word "end", which descibes a separate time in the phase which has separate conditions that have NOT yet been met to drain the Warp Charge Pool.

The end of the phase is when the phase ends.

If you carry on doing things at that point, it is clearly not the end of the phase.

You can tell that it's not the end of the phase because things that happen during the phase are still happening.

If you are resolving psychic powers, you're still in the psychic phase, not at the end of it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, given literally noone agrees with you, and you've apparently been "humouring" us again, maybe just stop

You literally are not convincing a single poster here. Noone.

I have no permission to cast psychic powers after stating I will not cast more psychic powers. Because to do otherwise means I lied.

How else do you reach the end of the psychic phase? You only have two methods to reach it, neither of which results in you being able to cast any more powers

DOnt use caps. Headache inducing. Just learn to use the QUOTE tags.

You didn't read what I wrote carefully enough. I addressed all of what you just said a few posts ago, and you're just saying all of the things I disproved over again. If you're not going to read what I've said carefully, and address it in a real way, I'm going to give myself a free pass on taking shortcuts when replying to you, sorry. If that gives you a headache, youre always free to just stop. I don't care if you're not convinced. I don't think it's true that I'm not convincing anyone. Convincing anyone isn't a requirement for being correct anyway. No one has been able to provide proof that I'm wrong. I'll stop if you or anyone else can.

I'm going to bed.


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 insaniak wrote:
The end of the phase is when the phase ends.

If you carry on doing things at that point, it is clearly not the end of the phase.

You can tell that it's not the end of the phase because things that happen during the phase are still happening.

If you are resolving psychic powers, you're still in the psychic phase, not at the end of it.

Read the rules, and you will see that none of what you just said is accurate according to the rules, and/or the english language.

I'll prove that tomorrow (or maybe the next day. tomorrow's real busy) if required, but as I said, I'm going to bed.

 Weboflies wrote:
[
The rules clearly state the "end of the Phase"(NOUN) is during the turn. They clearly state that at that time the restriction is lifted.

How is the term "turn" relevant here?

They clearly state the Warp Charge that I have left does grant permission, and that charge is not yet lost, because the conditions for "the Phase ends"(VERB) which is not the same thing as "the end of the phase"(NOUN) which is a separate, mutually exclusive sense of the word "end", which descibes a separate time in the phase which has separate conditions that have NOT yet been met to drain the Warp Charge Pool.

My stance is that the "phase ends" is the prelude to the "end of the phase". Therefore you're dropping your remaining warp charges before you reach the actual END of it.

On your dictionary excursion:

"a final part of something, especially a period of time" does not mean that "end" is a period of time. It is a point in time that delimits the period of time it "ends" from the next period of time.

"come or bring to a final point; finish. " so "ends" is leading up to the "end".

By that logic anything that happens when ending the psychic phase happens before the end itself. So you have 0 warp charges left when you reach the end, and even if you consider "until the end of the psychic phase" as exclusive of "the end" itself, you're still left with it being after the phase "ends".

I fail to see why how "end" is a period of time. It isn't. It's the final part of a period of time, a simply point in time. Just like the dictionary says.

Web - you disproved nothing. Not a thing

You havent convinced a single persono posting. Not one has posted stating you have changed their mind, and that suddenly you can cast powers after the point the rules allow you to cast powers, becsuse a restriction on otherwise casting at a time you CAN cast powers has been lifted

Its almost like youre easter egg hunting. Oh wait...

insaniak wrote:The end of the phase is when the phase ends.

If you carry on doing things at that point, it is clearly not the end of the phase.

You can tell that it's not the end of the phase because things that happen during the phase are still happening.

If you are resolving psychic powers, you're still in the psychic phase, not at the end of it.

Not necessarily. The end of the phase is where you clean up the results of what happened in that Phase, if needed, to prepare for the next Phase. For example for Morale Checks:

Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.

Though, you do have a point about if you are still resolving Psychic Powers, you aren't really at the end of the Phase.

At best for the Formation, I would interpret it as they have to wait until all the other Psykers in the army do their business before they can do anything, having been left with the Warp Charge scraps.

At worst, well, their Formation member used up all the Warp Charges leaving them nothing to work with.

Do note I have no dog in this fight. I run Necrons, and used to have Black Templars. Psychic powers are something I don't keep a close eye on.

nekooni wrote:
My stance is that the "phase ends" is the prelude to the "end of the phase". Therefore you're dropping your remaining warp charges before you reach the actual END of it.

I actually think you have that backwards... If the phase ends, you have already accomplished everything you need for the end of the phase.

For example, a story's finality is at the end of the story, and when it finishes, the story ends. Does that make sense?

the end of the psychic phase is defined as having 0 warp charge, or no psykers able to cast powers.

At that point you cannot cast powers with any psyker that cannot cast powers until the end of the phase.

You will either have 0 warp charge, or will not have any psykers able to cast powers - so there is no way to cast powers at that point.

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
My stance is that the "phase ends" is the prelude to the "end of the phase". Therefore you're dropping your remaining warp charges before you reach the actual END of it.

I actually think you have that backwards... If the phase ends, you have already accomplished everything you need for the end of the phase.

For example, a story's finality is at the end of the story, and when it finishes, the story ends. Does that make sense?

But you could also say that the story ends with a big bang, and then you've reached the end of the book.
The end is a point in time that is fixed. There is nothing behind it. "This show is ending soon" means that you will soon have reached the point of time that is "the end".

This phase ends once you've chosen - or are unable - to manifest more powers. As a result, you drop all remaining warp charges while the phase ends. You resolve all the effects that ending the psychic phase entails, then you've reached the actual end of it. From now on, your Librarians are free to manifest powers again.

Maybe it's me not being a native speaker and it's just my German way of thinking, but to me it seems like a really clear-cut case. "I'm ending this conversation, once I've ended it I'm at the end of the conversation."

And please consider that the OED has multiple meanings for the noun "end", for example:

Finish
"a situation in which something does not exist any more"

Examples:

the end of all his dreams
The meeting came to an end (= finished).
The war was finally at an end.
The coup brought his corrupt regime to an end.
There's no end in sight to the present crisis.
They have called for an end to violence.
This latest attack could spell the end of the peace process.
Let’s put an end to(= stop) these rumours once and for all.
That was by no means the end of the matter.

This fits just as well, if not better than the definition used here:

final part

Examples
the final part of a period of time, an event, an activity or a story
at the end of the week
We didn't leave until the very end.
the end of the book
We had to hear about the whole journey from beginning to end.
It's the end of an era.
Our end-of-season sale starts next week.
There’ll be a chance to ask questions at the end.

On the other hand I'd say that "end" as a verb very clearly tells us which of these two definitions should probably be used:

to finish; to make something finish

And as a final note - Do we all agree that GWs intention most likely was that you would only be able to cast with the "head librarian"? I know that "intent" doesn't have a huge impact on a rules as written debate, but if there're two legit ways to "decipher" what GW wrote, I'd say the one in line with the apparent intention gets a few bonus points.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Web - you disproved nothing. Not a thing

You havent convinced a single persono posting. Not one has posted stating you have changed their mind, and that suddenly you can cast powers after the point the rules allow you to cast powers, becsuse a restriction on otherwise casting at a time you CAN cast powers has been lifted

Its almost like youre easter egg hunting. Oh wait...

IT'S NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST!!!!

Everyone thought Galileo was wrong about heliocentrism, but it turns out, he was the only one that was right.

Nekooni posted my argument with the OED definition of end. As said the end can also mean the point at which something doesn't exist anymore, so the end of the phase is the point at which the psychic phase doesn't exist anymore. It has now ended. If it doesn't exist then you cannot continue it meaning you cannot continue past it. The end is the point where all the things that resolve at the end of phase resolve and the phase ceases to exist. You could argue that while these things are resolving you can cast but the end is also when the warp charges remaining are lost. So If you lose your warp charges at the point things cease to exist, how do you simultaneously cast with those warp charges at that exact point as well?

Nekooni, it's not your grasp of english that's the problem.
The main difference between oxford english and common english is that no-one, short of english professors at oxford, cambridge or eton, actually speak oxford english. English teachers dont speak oxford english.

This is one of the reasons tenet #6 exists

"6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out"

The rulebook defines "the end of the phase" in the same way that it defines "the end of a turn " and end of the game".
Instead of writing "the end of the phase occurs when the phase ends" they are saying that the end of the phase occurs when everything in that phase has been done"

Again, with regards to permissions, you cannot just decide when the end of the phase occurs. It's not up to you. You have no permission to enter the "end of the phase". The closest thing you have (as you refuse to agree on the obvious intention) is being told the phase ends. Which, in common english, is taken to mean that you have reached the end of the phase

nekooni wrote:
But you could also say that the story ends with a big bang, and then you've reached the end of the book.
The end is a point in time that is fixed. There is nothing behind it. "This show is ending soon" means that you will soon have reached the point of time that is "the end".

This phase ends once you've chosen - or are unable - to manifest more powers. As a result, you drop all remaining warp charges while the phase ends. You resolve all the effects that ending the psychic phase entails, then you've reached the actual end of it. From now on, your Librarians are free to manifest powers again.

Maybe it's me not being a native speaker and it's just my German way of thinking, but to me it seems like a really clear-cut case. "I'm ending this conversation, once I've ended it I'm at the end of the conversation."

Maybe, but consider that quote on the Morale Check Casualties I put in just above above my answer to you.

In order for it to be valid, it still needs to be that Phase and not between Phases. We do not have permission to perform actions between Phases to clean up a previous Phase. These clean up actions are performed "at the end of that Phase".

They are the finishing portions of that sequence and help establish when that Phase is completed and to prepare to move on to the next.

And how do you move from the psychoc phase proper to the end of the phase?

As defined in the psychic rules, it's the end of the phase once you have finished casting (either because you ran out of charges, or you decided to stop).

So there is no longer any opportunity to cast with other psykers... Either you have no charges to cast with, or you've said that you're not going to cast any more.

 jokerkd wrote:
Nekooni, it's not your grasp of english that's the problem.
The main difference between oxford english and common english is that no-one, short of english professors at oxford, cambridge or eton, actually speak oxford english. English teachers dont speak oxford english.

This is one of the reasons tenet #6 exists

"6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out"

The whole argument by the OP is based on one single definition straight out of the OED, I simply pointed out that there are other meanings of the word - even according to the OED - and that in my opinion one of them is the better definition in this instance. Are you really telling me that I am the one violating / ignoring the tenets here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But you could also say that the story ends with a big bang, and then you've reached the end of the book.
The end is a point in time that is fixed. There is nothing behind it. "This show is ending soon" means that you will soon have reached the point of time that is "the end".

This phase ends once you've chosen - or are unable - to manifest more powers. As a result, you drop all remaining warp charges while the phase ends. You resolve all the effects that ending the psychic phase entails, then you've reached the actual end of it. From now on, your Librarians are free to manifest powers again.

Maybe it's me not being a native speaker and it's just my German way of thinking, but to me it seems like a really clear-cut case. "I'm ending this conversation, once I've ended it I'm at the end of the conversation."

Maybe, but consider that quote on the Morale Check Casualties I put in just above above my answer to you.

In order for it to be valid, it still needs to be that Phase and not between Phases. We do not have permission to perform actions between Phases to clean up a previous Phase. These clean up actions are performed "at the end of that Phase".

They are the finishing portions of that sequence and help establish when that Phase is completed and to prepare to move on to the next.

So what is your argument? My claim has never been that "the end of the psychic phase" is outside of the psychic phase, and that seems to be all you're commenting on here.

On the contrary, you suggested that maybe your not being a native speaker was a problem. I was trying to assure you it isn't. The problem lies with anyone assuming that the writers speak/write the queens english.

everything after that was not meant to be aimed at you. In hindsight, i should have made that clear



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
You still don't have permission to cast during the "end of phase"

the end of the phase is only mentioned as a point in time when the restriction is lifted. It does not grant permission to cast out of sequence with the standard psychic phase rules

Lifting a restriction, is a grant of permission. It can mean nothing else.

Lifting a restriction simply means that said restriction is lifted. Any other restriction is still in place and you still need general permission to do whatever you wish to do. And you have no permission to actually cast anything at the end of the psychic phase, only during the psychic phase.

A tempo limit being lifted does not give you the permission to drive a car (at any speed) if you lost your drivers license (not the papers, the actual license).

The rules clearly state the "end of the Phase"(NOUN) is during the turn. They clearly state that at that time the restriction is lifted. They clearly state the Warp Charge that I have left does grant permission, and that charge is not yet lost, because the conditions for "the Phase ends"(VERB) which is not the same thing as "the end of the phase"(NOUN) which is a separate, mutually exclusive sense of the word "end", which descibes a separate time in the phase which has separate conditions that have NOT yet been met to drain the Warp Charge Pool.

Can you please show me where the rulebook states you may manifest powers "at the end of the phase" as required by the end of phase rules.

You cannot claim your opinion is RAW when there is no written rule that, by your definition, allows you to proceed to the end of the phase. Moving to the end of the phase with or without warp charges, by your definition, is RAI. You do not have written permission do it, so it's obviously not RAW

nekooni wrote:

So what is your argument? My claim has never been that "the end of the psychic phase" is outside of the psychic phase, and that seems to be all you're commenting on here.

This line of commentary was addressing your statement that the End of Phase happens after the Phase ends. If the Phase ends, we are either moving on to the next Phase or ending the game. The End of Phase, is as I state, the portion of the Phase that involves clean up, such as Morale Checks for casualties (though, this does not happen as often in the Psychic Phase as the Shooting Phase).

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

So what is your argument? My claim has never been that "the end of the psychic phase" is outside of the psychic phase, and that seems to be all you're commenting on here.

This line of commentary was addressing your statement that the End of Phase happens after the Phase ends. If the Phase ends, we are either moving on to the next Phase or ending the game. The End of Phase, is as I state, the portion of the Phase that involves clean up, such as Morale Checks for casualties (though, this does not happen as often in the Psychic Phase as the Shooting Phase).

Yes, but I still never said that the end of a phase is not still part of that phase. But still you cannot choose to manifest additional powers as if you were in the middle of the phase.

I'm really glad to see so many people giving this some serious discussion, today's a 16 hour day for me so I can't get too involved in posting just now, but this has all been percolating all day, and I've got something for you guys that I think is really relevant and is going to help really bring this conversation into focus.

More on that later tonight or tomorrow.

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

So what is your argument? My claim has never been that "the end of the psychic phase" is outside of the psychic phase, and that seems to be all you're commenting on here.

This line of commentary was addressing your statement that the End of Phase happens after the Phase ends. If the Phase ends, we are either moving on to the next Phase or ending the game. The End of Phase, is as I state, the portion of the Phase that involves clean up, such as Morale Checks for casualties (though, this does not happen as often in the Psychic Phase as the Shooting Phase).

Yes, but I still never said that the end of a phase is not still part of that phase.

It is a case of refining definitions. I am trying to help you understand how the choice of this language is being interpreted.

It comes across as backwards if the Phase ends before the End of Phase. If the Phase had ended, we should be moving on to the next Phase or judging the game has ended. It would be like serving cake before you cut it. The normal function of the Phase would end before the End of Phase, but that is not quite the same thing.

nekooni wrote:
But still you cannot choose to manifest additional powers as if you were in the middle of the phase.

Not normally, but with this rule apparently you can since it tells you to do so. But that is just my pedestrian understanding for the best outcome of the Conclave's Player. Also at best would be the condition that once the second of this Formation's Librarians start throwing their Powers around, no other Psyker in the player's army would be able to use their Powers.

There is still that nagging issue of running out of Warp Charges or choosing not to have any other Psykers Cast being the normal cause the End of the Psychic Phase, though.

 Charistoph wrote:

Not normally, but with this rule apparently you can since it tells you to do so.

Except it doesn't.

It tells you that you can't cast until that point. That doesn't give you permission to cast at that point... that permission would have to come from elsewhere. (You can't drive until you are 16 (or whatever age applies in your own place of residence). That doesn't mean that the moment you turn 16 you can legally jump behind the wheel... You still need to go and get permission to drive at that point.)

All it does is stop you from casting before that point. The fact the point the restriction is removed is the point where you have declared that the phase is over means that what the rule is effectively saying is that the other psykers can't cast during that phase.

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

So what is your argument? My claim has never been that "the end of the psychic phase" is outside of the psychic phase, and that seems to be all you're commenting on here.

This line of commentary was addressing your statement that the End of Phase happens after the Phase ends. If the Phase ends, we are either moving on to the next Phase or ending the game. The End of Phase, is as I state, the portion of the Phase that involves clean up, such as Morale Checks for casualties (though, this does not happen as often in the Psychic Phase as the Shooting Phase).

Yes, but I still never said that the end of a phase is not still part of that phase.

It is a case of refining definitions. I am trying to help you understand how the choice of this language is being interpreted.

It comes across as backwards if the Phase ends before the End of Phase. If the Phase had ended, we should be moving on to the next Phase or judging the game has ended. It would be like serving cake before you cut it. The normal function of the Phase would end before the End of Phase, but that is not quite the same thing.

You're treating "End of Phase" as a specific rule thing that contains activities and is more of a "subphase" of the Psychic Phase (much like how MtG works), while I - and weboflies - are discussing it as "the end of the phase".
When the cake is "ending", there's a tiny bit left of it. When the cake has reached its end, it is gone from that point in time onwards.

I'd treat it the same way as you, but I'm discussing a different approach since weboflies came at it from that angle.

nekooni wrote:
But still you cannot choose to manifest additional powers as if you were in the middle of the phase.

Not normally, but with this rule apparently you can since it tells you to do so. But that is just my pedestrian understanding for the best outcome of the Conclave's Player. Also at best would be the condition that once the second of this Formation's Librarians start throwing their Powers around, no other Psyker in the player's army would be able to use their Powers.

There is still that nagging issue of running out of Warp Charges or choosing not to have any other Psykers Cast being the normal cause the End of the Psychic Phase, though.

As insaniak said, and I have said before: Lifting a restriction is not the same as granting permission. If you have no permission, and an additional restriction which would stop you even if you had permission is lifted, you still do not have permission.

And yes, at the point in time that the restriction is lifted you simply cannot have any warp charges to actually manifest a power.

insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not normally, but with this rule apparently you can since it tells you to do so.

Except it doesn't.

It tells you that you can't cast until that point. That doesn't give you permission to cast at that point... that permission would have to come from elsewhere. (You can't drive until you are 16 (or whatever age applies in your own place of residence). That doesn't mean that the moment you turn 16 you can legally jump behind the wheel... You still need to go and get permission to drive at that point.)

All it does is stop you from casting before that point. The fact the point the restriction is removed is the point where you have declared that the phase is over means that what the rule is effectively saying is that the other psykers can't cast during that phase.

I rather disagree. Being told you cannot do something before that point can be interpreted as permission to do so at that point.

But that is more a matter of perspective in interpreting the rules than anything else. Such as the perception of the End of Phase and the Phase ends.

The more important issue with it is more of what classifies the End of the Psychic Phase is not a question of permissions, but rather that you either have no Warp Charges (so you cannot cast) or you have determined that no more Psykers will cast (thereby determining that these others will not be casting).

In order for the Channeling to allow the Librarians to actually cast, it has to be when no other Psykers will be casting and there are sufficient Warp Charges available. However, this is only considering it from the possibility that it is Intended that these other Librarians can cast. I am not convinced either way. I am just exploring it the concept.

nekooni wrote:You're treating "End of Phase" as a specific rule thing that contains activities and is more of a "subphase" of the Psychic Phase (much like how MtG works), while I - and weboflies - are discussing it as "the end of the phase".
When the cake is "ending", there's a tiny bit left of it. When the cake has reached its end, it is gone from that point in time onwards.

I'd treat it the same way as you, but I'm discussing a different approach since weboflies came at it from that angle.

When the cake is "ending", you are at the End of the Cake. However, that is a present tense indicating that the process is being put in to place. When it "ends" that means there are no other functions for it. When your cake "ends" you have no more cake, period.

And yeah, I am treating the "End of Phase" as a thing, because the rulebook uses it as a thing, as noted by one of the conditions of establishing the cause of a Morale Check.

And I am capitalizing it to demonstrate to separate it out. GW has a tendency of not capitalizing words that have significance to separate them from run of the mill words (maybe as a part of British English, I don't know).

 Charistoph wrote:

I rather disagree. Being told you cannot do something before that point can be interpreted as permission to do so at that point..

It really, really can't. A few examples of why it can't have been been provided already.

Removal of a restriction removes that restriction. It doesn't open the door... it just removes the barricade from in front of it.

So removing a restriction only results in you being able to do something if you have explicit permission to do that thing.