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So I'm aware this has been argued exhaustively before, and It seems many don't want to discuss it.

I have something to say on the subject that settles it very conclusively. I'm going to outline that in the next post. I'm going to copy and paste what I've laid out in another conversation on another forum, and I'm going to edit it a bit to remove anything that relates only to the context of that conversation.

First, I'd like to ask that if you're going to try and tell me I'm wrong, please, rather than just making blind assertions, lay out your line of reasoning concisely, be sure what you are saying is based on the actual text of the rules in keeping with proper use of English and the dictates of logic, and if you're drawing from sources other than those that have already been quoted be sure to quote them exactly as their written and cite the page number reference.

If someone has already presented the same arguments as mine and they have been disproven, please provide a link and a reference to the specific post on the page (ie: page 4 of the thread 7th post), or copy and paste the material here. I'm not willing to accept "internet consensus" for the opposing point of view as a valid argument unless this consensus was arrived at based on logical proof, consistent with proper English and the Rules of 40k as written. If it is, by all means please provide specific reference or paste it in as just requested.

Also, I'd ask that if you're not willing to discuss this fully, then please don't post here at all. I don't think it's fair to tell me I'm wrong and then refuse to discuss it: you've already discussed it by telling me I'm wrong, and then are tyring to close the door on the conversation. Not at all sporting.

More in a moment.

Firstly, I think what a lot of people have been having trouble with when talking about this is that they're taking the words, or rather the senses of the same word "the end" (noun), and "ends" (verb) to mean the same thing. They do not. Let's consult the dictionary:

END

noun: end; plural noun: ends

1.
a final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
"the end of the year"

verb: end; [i]3rd person present: ends[/i]; past tense: ended; past participle: ended; gerund or present participle: ending

1.
come or bring to a final point; finish.
"when the war ended, policy changed"

Furthermore, the Psychic phase rules state that the phase "ends" (verb) once specific conditions have been met. NOT that the "end" (noun) of the phase fulfils these conditions or "ends" (verb) the phase. The rules of 40k are governed by the rules of the English language. The english language is full of words with several meanings, and depending on context, these meanings are mutually exclusive.

So now that it's all clear what is meant by these two uses of the word, let's go through the whole thing, so there can be no doubt.


Space Marine Codex pg183:

"Other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

Here, in the Formation rules, the other Librarians are stated to not be permitted to manifest until "the end of the phase " (noun: a period of time NOT a moment in time). Logic and the rules of the English language dictate that if this statement is true, then it must also be true to state that the other Librarians are granted permission to cast in the period of time (end: noun) referred to as the "end of the phase"


Dark Vengeance: The Rules pg 17:

"Any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase starts."

Here the rules go on to define exactly what is meant by "the end (noun) of the phase" it describes this period of time (as the words "the end" are defined in the English dictionary) as taking place "during that phase, before the next phase starts".

The only literal reading of the two rules we've looked at so far is that the other Librarians are permitted to manifest powers in a period of time that takes place after all other actions are perfomed, a period of time that occurs during the current phase (the Psychic Phase, in this case), and before the next phase.


Dark Vengeance: The Rules pg 24:

"If, after resolving a psychic action – such as manifesting a psychic power – the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting phase begins"

The psychic phase rules here DO describe a moment in time (ends: verb) in which Warp Charge is lost and the phase "ends" (verb) It sets conditions for when that moment in time occurs. These conditions are such that: If I still have Warp Charge, and if all other actions in the phase are complete (the nominated Librarian has cast all the Powers I wish to cast with him in this phase in our case), and I am therefore permitted, as per the Formation rules, to manifest powers with other Librarians during a period of time referred to as the "end of the phase" (noun) as it is defined in the Core Rules, and if I choose (as I am permitted) to manifest powers with the other psykers, it cannot be said that I cannot manifest (permission has been granted), it cannot be said that I choose not to manifest (I do choose to), and therefore the conditions that are required to bring about the moment in time (ends:verb) at which the Phase "ends" are NOT met, and the warp Charge is NOT yet lost, and the Psychic Phase does NOT yet "end" (verb)

It's there in plain English. It's completely airtight and ironclad. This is not my interpretation, it is a literal reading, the only correct literal reading of the rules as they are written, in keeping with the dictates of logic and the rules governing the use of the English language.

The rules are not unclear or poorly written. they are exceptionally clear and well defined. I will grant that they are poorly organized in some ways, and they do ask of the reader a quite high level of reading comprehension at times, but there is nothing ambiguous about there meaning.

Some one brought up a concern about the context of the Formation rules, specifically as it relates to the use of the word "until":

Once Again, lets consult the dictionary. It even defines "not until" for us.

UNTIL

preposition, conjunction
/ənˈtɪl/ /ʌnˈtɪl/ (also till)


until preposition, conjunction (TIME)
A1 up to (the ​time that):

not until
B1 not before a ​particular ​time or ​event:

True, "until" and "at" don't mean exactly the same thing. However, the only difference is that "until" prohibits the action in question from taking place "before" the specified time and permits the action "at" the specified time. "At" permits the action only at the specified time, but both terms do permit the action to take place "at" the specified time, and are one hundred percent functionally the same in terms of the grant of permission "at" the specified time. The specified time is the "end" (noun: a period of time) which the 40k rules define as taking place during the phase. NOT the moment that the phase "ends" (verb)

Once again, the rules of English, which govern the rules of 40k clearly permit the other psykers to cast at "the end"(noun) of the phase, which is defined as a period of time after the nominated Psyker has finished casting, after any other actions that are not defined as taking place at "the end"(noun) of the phase are resolved, and before the next phase, and therefore before the moment in time that the Warp Charge is lost when the phase "ends".

And before anyone else goes here, I will just go here: Why do I say that the "final period of time" (end: noun) occurs before the "final moment" (ends:verb)? Because it is a truth that is self evident, and no other conclusion is possible. A moment (ends:verb) cannot include a period of time (end:noun) because it is a finer increment of time than a period of time. You can't fit a year into a second. If the moment is (and as it is defined here it is) the final moment, then it is not possible for a greater period of time, even the "final period" to take place at any time other than before. In this case, the case of the "final period", it must take place immediately before (as it is final) but must take place before The moment the turn "ends"(verb).

Once again: Just English used properly and the inevitability, and unavoidable rule of logic.

The way any number of players agree to play the game is completely valid. The rules even say (won't bother to find the page because we all agree on this), that whatever the players decide amongst themselves goes. If I were to go to an ITC event, by participating, I am agreeing to play by their version of the rules: a ruleset that is not RaW, and has been arbitrarily modified by the TO's. I think that what people like that is doing is critically important to the game, and I applaud and respect their efforts. There is going to be an ITC tournament in my city later this year, and if my army is ready, I would like to attend, and if I include this formation, I will respect their rules. that said, the ITC rules only apply to ITC events, or other games where the players agree to use them. In the end If we decide that we're going to throw models at each other across the table, that's allowed for within the rules, but here's the thing: We have to agree. Furthermore, if we do agree on something it doesn't have any bearing on anything beyond the game we have agreed to play under those conditions.

When two players don't agree on how something should go, that is when you have to default to the rules as they are written.

I have demonstrated conclusively that the rules as written grant permission for the other Psykers with in 12" to cast during the current Psychic Phase, after the Nominated Psyker has cast his powers, and before the Warp Charge is lost.

There is a reason the tenets (please see pinned post) suggest we dont base arguments on dictionary definitions. The rulebooks tend to have their own narrower definitions.

Your logic appears to lead to a situation where, if you do run out of warp charges, the phase "ends" and anything that should be done during the "end of phase" cannot now be done because you have forced the phase to "end". I see no sense there.

also, as has been pointed out to you previously, the restriction on other psykers casting is removed at the end of the phase, you do not have permission to cast at the "end of phase".

Again, removing a restriction does not equal granting a permission you did not have in the first place

While I agree there is a difference between "end of phase" and "the phase ends", The rules you cited do not enable you to enter an "end of phase" period at any point. You are in your physic phase until you are unable to manifest a power or you choose not to, at which point the phase ends and all unused charges are lost. You are trying to create an arbitrary end of phase period in the middle of that which rules don't say happens.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
While I agree there is a difference between "end of phase" and "the phase ends", The rules you cited do not enable you to enter an "end of phase" period at any point. You are in your physic phase until you are unable to manifest a power or you choose not to, at which point the phase ends and all unused charges are lost. You are trying to create an arbitrary end of phase period in the middle of that which rules don't say happens.

I have not created this arbitrary period. Pg 17 clearly does.

Weboflies, in layman's terms, when do you reach the end of the psychic phase?

 Weboflies wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
While I agree there is a difference between "end of phase" and "the phase ends", The rules you cited do not enable you to enter an "end of phase" period at any point. You are in your physic phase until you are unable to manifest a power or you choose not to, at which point the phase ends and all unused charges are lost. You are trying to create an arbitrary end of phase period in the middle of that which rules don't say happens.

I have not created this arbitrary period. Pg 17 clearly does.

No, that page defines when end of phase actions happen. It does not state it always applies and it does not get around the page 24 rule you cited that states when you choose not to manifest a power your phase ends. Nothing in the rules you quoted give you permission to move from in the psychic phase to an "end of psychic phase" without losing all your warp charges. Thus at the point you would resolve end of phase effects you have already lost your warp charges so while I suppose you could argue they are now allowed to manifest powers, you have no WC to do so.

You still don't have permission to cast during the "end of phase"

the end of the phase is only mentioned as a point in time when the restriction is lifted. It does not grant permission to cast out of sequence with the standard psychic phase rules

 jokerkd wrote:
There is a reason the tenets (please see pinned post) suggest we dont base arguments on dictionary definitions. The rulebooks tend to have their own narrower definitions.

Your logic appears to lead to a situation where, if you do run out of warp charges, the phase "ends" and anything that should be done during the "end of phase" cannot now be done because you have forced the phase to "end". I see no sense there.

also, as has been pointed out to you previously, the restriction on other psykers casting is removed at the end of the phase, you do not have permission to cast at the "end of phase".

Again, removing a restriction does not equal granting a permission you did not have in the first place

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by the "pinned Post" I can't find it...

If the rules explicitly defines something in a way that is contradictory to the dictionary, than that would supercede of course, but in absence of that, what other convention do we have?, then people can just say that the words mean anything they want to and you're faced with a situation where there are no rules (only Zuul!), because the words they're made out of don't have any objective meaning. In this case, the game does not define the word, or the senses in which it's used differently, explicitly or otherwise. It only defines a clause ("end of the Phase") that makes use of the word "end" and the way they define that is not only consistent with my argument, but a fundamental basis of it.

The situation you describe with the preempting of the "end of the phase" when Warp Charge points are all expended by the manifestation of powers is very interesting. It's a situation that is not created by anything I've proposed, but by th text of pg 17 itself, and it's one that would exist if I was using the Formation in the way I describe or not. It seems like a contradiction or a paradox, but it's actually not. The Psychic phase rules do not state that the turn "ends" immediately once WC is expended, or that the resolution of anything that was to occur at the "end of the phase" would not occur first, or "during the phase" as that rule states. In this situation, because you've spent all Warp Charge, the only things that could possibly occur are the expiry of certain game effects, or other automatic resolution type things that are stated to take place "at the end of the phase" these are not player actions, and as such don't require permission. They are passive game effects which MUST be resolved. Therefore they can (and must) be sandwiched between the emptying of Warp Charge Pool and the point in time that the Phase "ends"or "during the phase" as clearly defined. There's nothing in the rules that specifically prohibits this and there is something that definitively requires it. The other psykers within 12" would not be permitted to attempt to manifest without any warp charge points anyway, so there's no conflict there.

"...cannot manifest psychic powers until..." Is a grant of permission. it is a grant of permission that is conditional on the permission taking effect at a specified time. The specified time is the "end of the phase" as the rules define it which is a period of time "during" the turn, which cannot be after the point of time the turn "ends"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
While I agree there is a difference between "end of phase" and "the phase ends", The rules you cited do not enable you to enter an "end of phase" period at any point. You are in your physic phase until you are unable to manifest a power or you choose not to, at which point the phase ends and all unused charges are lost. You are trying to create an arbitrary end of phase period in the middle of that which rules don't say happens.

As I just talked about in my last post (I didn't wan't to pass over your post and not respond), The rules don't say the turn "ends" immediately, and the wedging of the "end of the phase" events in the middle is not something the rules state cannot take place, but it is something that the rules require to take place. i elaborate on that a little more on that above.

"...cannot manifest psychic powers until..." Is a grant of permission. it is a grant of permission that is conditional on the permission taking effect at a specified time. The specified time is the "end of the phase" as the rules define it which is a period of time "during" the turn, which cannot be after the point of time the turn "ends"

This is where we have the misunderstanding.

All of your psykers have permission (with conditions) to cast during the sequence explained in the the psychic phase rules.
What you have here is a restriction that removes/counters that general permission.
A permission will include wording like "can", where as a restriction will include wording like "cannot"

So what you have is a rule that removes their permission to cast until the end of the phase. RAW there is no explicit permission to cast during the "end of phase".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the wedging of the "end of the phase" events in the middle is not something the rules state cannot take place, but it is something that the rules require to take place.

A permissive ruleset will not tell you what you cannot do (unless it has already given you permission to do it)
If it doesn't give you permission to do something, you cannot do it

 jokerkd wrote:
You still don't have permission to cast during the "end of phase"

the end of the phase is only mentioned as a point in time when the restriction is lifted. It does not grant permission to cast out of sequence with the standard psychic phase rules

Lifting a restriction, is a grant of permission. It can mean nothing else. The lifting of the restriction is stated to take place at the specified time, therefore the permission is granted at the specified time. There is nowhere in the rules that says manifesting powers in "the end of the" phase is "out of sequence", only that the "end of the turn" arrives when all 'other actions" have been performed. In our case, "other actions" refers to the manifestation of powers by the Nominated Psyker. "other actions" is defined as actions other than those the rules say "happen at the end of the phase" this does not include manifestation by other Psykers within 12" because that is stated to happen at the "End of the Phase".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please tell me where in the rules of 40k it states that it is a permissive ruleset. the concept of a permissive ruleset is not RaW.

It's irrelevant anyway, because the Formation rules clearly grant that permission as I've just mentioned above.

Lifting a restriction does NOT grant any permission that you did not already have.
The "sequence" i was referring to is simply the rules for manifesting powers in the psychic phase.

You have the permission to cast during the psychic phase until you run out of charges or decide not to. This is the permission that that empyric channeling removes. That restriction is removed at the end of the phase.
You must show explicit permission to manifest powers at the end of the phase

 Happyjew wrote:
Weboflies, in layman's terms, when do you reach the end of the psychic phase?

I'll lay out the sequence. I need to do anything but talk about this for a while, so i hope you can forgive me for not posting the reasoning behind it inline with it. It's all in my other posts.

-Powers are cast by the Nominated Psyker and any Psykers not part of the Formation
-Once those Psykers have finished casting all the powers they wish to cast, or if warp charge points are expended, we enter the "end of the phase"
-If any Warp Charge points remain, the other Psykers within 12' may use them to cast powers, and all other passive game effects, resolutions, or other events stated to happen at the "end of the phase" take place
-The Phase "ends"



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
Lifting a restriction does NOT grant any permission that you did not already have.
The "sequence" i was referring to is simply the rules for manifesting powers in the psychic phase.

You have the permission to cast during the psychic phase until you run out of charges or decide not to. This is the permission that that empyric channeling removes. That restriction is removed at the end of the phase.
You must show explicit permission to manifest powers at the end of the phase

If lifting the restriction is not a grant of permission, then what is it? It is nothing. For a restriction to exist, requires the default existence of permission. There's nowhere I can find in the rules that explicitly grants permission to Manifest powers at all except that you may do so as long as you have Warp Charge. the Warp Charge, unless used, is present until the final moment (dictionary definition) when turn "ends". The "end of the Phase" is when permission is granted by the lifting of the restriction, and is stated to be "during the phase" which logic dictates must be before the "final moment" that the phase "ends".

I'm being a sport by playing along with this permission business, because it doesn't weaken my argument, but I'm still not able to find anyone quoting a page number that states the concept has bearing on the game. Until then, There isn't really an argument to be made for it being considered RaW.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Weboflies, in layman's terms, when do you reach the end of the psychic phase?

I'll lay out the sequence. I need to do anything but talk about this for a while, so i hope you can forgive me for not posting the reasoning behind it inline with it. It's all in my other posts.

-Powers are cast by the Nominated Psyker and any Psykers not part of the Formation
-Once those Psykers have finished casting all the powers they wish to cast, or if warp charge points are expended, we enter the "end of the phase"
-If any Warp Charge points remain, the other Psykers within 12' may use them to cast powers, and all other passive game effects, resolutions, or other events stated to happen at the "end of the phase" take place
-The Phase "ends"

Except the rules you cited initially clearly state as soon as you decide not to manufest additional powers the psychic phase ends. Not enters an end of phase. Not these other psykers can now cast powers. The phase ends. Your third bullet point us shoving in permission for additional casting that the rules do not support.

The rules on how to resolve end of phase effects don't give permission to use additional abilities at all. Existing effects that happen at end if phase would then occur and yes that would remove the casting restrictions. It also removes all your remaining WC. Regardless of how it affects either of those though, nowhere in your cited rules is there permission to use further abilities of any kind during an end of phase, much less manifesting additional psychic powers after having made a decision to use no further psychic powers.

Please try to understand the concept of a permissive ruleset, and why it is the basis of how games are written. How can you even determine what is RAW if you don't know the fundamental basics of following rules.

You have shown no permission to enter the "end of phase" or to manifest power powers at that point in time.

You have been (repeatedly) given the only two permissions to reach the end of the phase. Both of which deny any possibility of manifesting any more powers

 jokerkd wrote:
Please try to understand the concept of a permissive ruleset, and why it is the basis of how games are written. How can you even determine what is RAW if you don't know the fundamental basics of following rules.

You have shown no permission to enter the "end of phase" or to manifest power powers at that point in time.

You have been (repeatedly) given the only two permissions to reach the end of the phase. Both of which deny any possibility of manifesting any more powers

if it's fundamental to the Rules, it shouldn't be a problem to show me somewhere in the rules where it's at least mentioned, right? Still waiting for a page number. I'd take an interview with Rick Priestly at this point. Anything. Proof please. Something other that someone in a chatroom just saying so with no proof or reasoning behind it.

As I just said, I've been humoring you guys and have demonstrated that the permission is given to cast powers in the ' end of the phase". Entering the "end of the phase" is not an action, and cannot possibly require permission. It is a game event that occurs when certain conditions are met.

Are you saying the rules have to "permit" passive game events, and the advancement of the phases? They don't "permit" the phase to end when the conditions have been met, they just state it does. they don't "permit" the shooting phase to begin, they just say it does. Where in the rules does it give turn 2 permission to turn into turn 3? Or any turn to turn into the next for that matter? Unless I'm missing something, and you can provide a quote and page reference?... I haven't seen a page reference verifying that your very narrow definition of a permissive ruleset is RaW at all.

They don't have to "permit" the 'end of the phase" to occur, all they have to do is define the conditions, and once those are met, it does. Just as they say it does. Nothing else is required.

I have been repeatedly given the only two conditions (not permissions) that trigger the moment in time where the phase "ends"(cannot, or do not wish to cast further powers or out of Warp Charge) when the separate condition that causes the game to enter the period of time known as the "end of the Phase" is met, those conditions required to bring about the moment in time where the phase "ends" are not necessarily met, and if they are not met, that can only mean I have Warp Charge left. At this period of time the restriction has been lifted, and thereby permission is granted to use powers.

 Weboflies wrote:
If lifting the restriction is not a grant of permission, then what is it?

It's a removal of a restriction.

It means that the restriction no longer prevents you from doing that thing. You still need permission to do that thing, though.


As an example, if there is a restriction on driving on my street on tuesdays, and this restriction is removed, I still need a driver's licence (ie: permission) to drive in order to drive on tuesdays. The removal of the restriction on driving on tuesdays is not a blanket permission to drive on tuesdays.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:
if it's fundamental to the Rules, it shouldn't be a problem to show me somewhere in the rules where it's at least mentioned, right?

It's not fundamental to 'the' rules... it's fundamental to how game rules work in the first place.

So no, it's not mentioned in the rules, because there is no need to do so. The rules outline what you can do. It would be impossible for them to outline all of the things that you can't do. That's where the phrase 'permissive ruleset' comes from... The rules give you permission to do certain things, and anything that the rules don't give you permission to do is not something that can be done.

 insaniak wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
If lifting the restriction is not a grant of permission, then what is it?

It's a removal of a restriction.

It means that the restriction no longer prevents you from doing that thing. You still need permission to do that thing, though.

So no, it's not mentioned in the rules, because there is no need to do so. The rules outline what you can do. It would be impossible for them to outline all of the things that you can't do. That's where the phrase 'permissive ruleset' comes from... The rules give you permission to do certain things, and anything that the rules don't give you permission to do is not something that can be done.

No, it's absolutely not impossible to have a ruleset that defines all the the things you cannot do in a game, and the concept (especially in the narrow way you're defining it) of a permissive ruleset is absolutely not fundamental to how all game rules work in the first place. that's frankly, with due respect, utterly ridiculous.

What about Soccer? I'm pretty sure it's got a rulebook that is full of stuff I can't do. I'm pretty sure I don't need permission to tie a shoelace, or wipe sweat off my forehead, and I'm pretty sure all of the things the players cant do are in there. AD&D has a rulebook. it's even a game that can be played on a table with miniatures. I haven't read it since the 1980's, but I'm quite certain it defines all of the stuff you can't do in one way or another.

Sure 40k is different, and I will grant you that if the rules don't mandate an event or allow for an action, the event or action doesn't happen. that's common sense to anyone familiar with the game. It's a far cry from the incredibly narrow definition of "permissive ruleset" you guys are imposing here.

If we've established that there are many kinds of rulesets that are not "permissive rulesets", and that it is not self evident that 40k is a "permissive ruleset", as you all are very narrowly defining it, then there IS a need to be specified in the rules that it is such in a conversation on RaW. I have to prove "permissions" for game actions, but you don't have to prove that they are required, in the narrow way that you specify, in the first place? That doesn't make sense.

It's all moot anyway. I've already demonstrated the permission is granted in the Rules as Written in a way that's consistent with logic and proper English. If you're going to impose a restriction on what defines permission, it's gotta be from the rules of the game to be RaW. You're requiring a "Liscense to Drive" that doesn't exist in the Rules, and is in no way a self-evident requirement being fundamental to the rules or being implicit in the rules.

Ad&d, like most rpgs, is a restrictive ruleset. Because it is an "open" type game, it has to limit what you can do instead of granting permission.

If you insist on using a restriction as a permission, so be it. Nobody here can stop you. You may even find someone that agrees with you, though on the three threads you have made this arguement, I've yet to see one.

Apparently youre "humouring" us. Yay, thanks

You have permission to cast during the psychic phase, but not during the end of the phase (because you get there by either stating you will not cast any further, or you have no more warp charges; neither of these conditions let you continue to cast powers)

Now you are in the end of phase, the RESTRICTION that stated these psykers could not cast is lifted. However, you may not cast any powers - because you said you would cast no more powers, or you have no warp charges. Both of these things are true

Your argument requires a player to lie, enter the end of phase, and try to claim "backsies" on their lie.

So no, here, like in your linked thread, you have simplky proven a grave misunderstanding of how the rules are constructed.

 Weboflies wrote:


It's all moot anyway. I've already demonstrated the permission is granted in the Rules as Written in a way that's consistent with logic and proper English. If you're going to impose a restriction on what defines permission, it's gotta be from the rules of the game to be RaW. You're requiring a "Liscense to Drive" that doesn't exist in the Rules, and is in no way a self-evident requirement being fundamental to the rules or being implicit in the rules.

No, you haven't. While I admit an appeal to majority is not an argument, you've got to wonder why literally nobody agrees with you

Flying monstrous creatures have a rule that states " If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."

If i dont change flight modes, does this give me permission to declare a charge?

 jokerkd wrote:
Ad&d, like most rpgs, is a restrictive ruleset. Because it is an "open" type game, it has to limit what you can do instead of granting permission.

If you insist on using a restriction as a permission, so be it. Nobody here can stop you. You may even find someone that agrees with you, though on the three threads you have made this arguement, I've yet to see one.

That's the funny thing about RaW, you don't have to agree with them, but you do have to follow them unless you and your opponent agree otherwise.

I've extensively humoured you guys by arguing the nuances of "permission" even though there's no mention of a requirement of permission in the 40k rules and never has been. The requirement of permission is somewhat sel-evident, but the particulars of that absolutely are not.

Please humour me now a little bit more (I acknowledge that you've been humoring me too perhaps to some small extent.) for one moment here.

I'd like to ask you clear your mind, and open yourself to the possibility that I may be right, for just a brief moment. This can wait til a quiet moment at home if it has to. It's not really an "on your smartphone on the city bus" kind of thing that we're looking for here.

I'd like to ask you to carefully read the last two paragraphs of this post. More than once if everything I've said isn't communicated clearly the first time.

If you feel something in it is incorrect I'd ask you to carefully read over once more the rules that you feel prove something in there is incorrect.

If any of the rules' uses of the word "end" or "ends" are a part of what you feel is incorrect, I'd like you to carefully read the dictionary definitions over again for the senses of the word "end" as they are used in the specific rules in question.

I ask that if you still have an argument to make for anything there being incorrect, that you quote just the sentence(s) you feel is(are), and incorrect provide proof that it (they) that consists only of Rules of 40k as they are written, the rules of English, or sound logic applied to either of those.

I know you're thinking we've already been through this but please, i have done this for others SO many times through these discussions (including yourself. you're the person who's really forced me to challenge my reading of the rules for myself the most). For me, in return. Please humour me. Just this little bit.

Here goes:

It's a lifting of a restriction. If, once that restriction is lifted it is not denying permission. If I still have Warp Charge (which is the only thing I can find in the book that "grants permission" to cast Psychic Powers at all), permission has been granted by the very presence of that Warp Charge in the Pool. the Warp Charge Pool has not yet been emptied as we have not yet arrived at the point in time where the Phase "ends' because the conditions for that have not been met.

These are sepearate conditions for those for the "end of the Phase" (noun) to come about, which is a separate time in the Phase brought about by separate conditions. The point where the phase "ends" (verb) cannot logically be before the time defined as the "end of the Phase"(noun), and it is at THIS time, the "end of the Phase" (noun), at which the only active restriction on casting is no longer in place, and if Warp Charge remains, the only possible permission to cast is still in place.

I'm affraid It's inescapable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just going to reply in-line with your comments and I'm going to use caps so it's obvious what's me and what's you. I"M SORRY I"M NOT MEANING TO "YELL" IT"S JUST FOR SEPARATION

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Apparently youre "humouring" us. Yay, thanks I'VE BEEN DISCUSSING STUFF THAT ISN'T RAW IN A CONVERSATION THAT I INITIATED BASED ON A REQUEST TO KEEP IT RAW, SO NO OFFENCE, BUT YES.

You have permission to cast during the psychic phase, but not during the end of the phase (because you get there by either stating you will not cast any further, or you have no more warp charges; neither of these conditions let you continue to cast powers) THATS THE MOMENT IN TIME REFERED TO BY THE USE OF THE WORD END AS A VERB. IT"S NOT THE SAME AS A SEPARATE PERIOD OF TIME REFERRED TO BY THE USE OF THE WORD END AS A NOUN, NOR DOES IT HAVE THE SAME CONDITIONS. IT'S NOT THE PART OF THE PHASE THE RULES ALLOW OTHER PSYKERS TO CAST AND IT'S NOT THE PART OF THE PHASE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now you are in the end of phase, the RESTRICTION that stated these psykers could not cast is lifted. However, you may not cast any powers - because you said you would cast no more powers, or you have no warp charges. Both of these things are true SEE ABOVE AND BELOW PLEASE

Your argument requires a player to lie, enter the end of phase, and try to claim "backsies" on their lie. WHEN DOES THE PLAYER SAY HE DOESN''T WANT TO CAST ANYMORE POWERS? THAT'S NOT PART OF WHAT I'VE SAID, AND NOTHING IN THE RULES OR WHAT I'VE SAID REQUIRES THAT. THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE "END OF THE PHASE" ARE THAT I"VE COMPLETED ALL ACTIONS OTHER THAN THOSE THAT ARE SAID TO HAPPEN AT "THE END OF THE PHASE" THAT"S NOT A DECLARATION THAT I DON"T WANT TO PERFORM ANY MORE ACTIONS, JUST THAT I DON"T WANT TO WITH THE NOMINATED PSYKER. THAT DOESN"T MEET THE CONDITIONS FOR WARP CHARGE TO DRAIN BUT IT DOES MEET THE REQUIREMENTS TO LIFT THE RESTRICTION. OTHER PSYKERS ARE NO LONGER RESTRICTED. THEY HAVE WARP CHARGE WHICH GRANTS THEM PERMISSION BECAUSE THE SEPARATE CONDITIONS FOR THE SEPARATE POINT IN TIME WHERE IT"S SAID THE PHASE 'ENDS" ARE NOT YET MET NAD THE POOL DOES NOT YET DRAIN. TWO SEPARATE SENSES OF THE WORD END WITH TWO SEPARATE MEANINGS, CORRESPONDING TO TWO SEPARATE PARTS OF THE PHASE, WITH TWO SEPARATE SETS OF CONDITIONS FOR THEIR ARRIVAL: LITERAL READING OF THE RULES AND THAT'S ALL

So no, here, like in your linked thread, you have simplky proven a grave misunderstanding of how the rules are constructed. YOU HAVENT READ ANY OF MY POSTS CAREFULLY ENOUGH BECAUSE YOURE SAYING I'VE SAID THINGS THAT I'VE NOT SAID, AND YOU'RE NOT ACKOWLEDGEING THE THINGS THAT I HAVE SAID THAT CANNOT BE DISPROVEN WITH RAW, OR EVEN WITH A REQUIREMENT OF PERMISSION WHICH ISN'T STRICTLY SPEAKING, RAW. PLEASE CAREFULLY READ MY RELATIVELY SHORT PREVIOUS REPLY TO JOKERKD IMMEDIATELY ABOVE (WHERE I ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE HUMORED ME TOO BY TAKING PART IN THE CONVERSATION, AND HUMBLY ASK YOU TO AGAIN)

SORRY FOR THE CAPS IT JUST MAKES THIS EASIER

How do you move from the psychic phase proper, to the end of the phase

 jokerkd wrote:
How do you move from the psychic phase proper, to the end of the phase

Declaring you've completed all actions other that those said to happen at the 'end of the phase'. In this case declaring that you're done with the Nominated Psyker, and any Psykers not within 12' of him.

Soooo many moving parts, but it all stands up. It might not sound like it, but I've been trying very hard for many days to knock it down. I can't.

 Weboflies wrote:
the Warp Charge Pool has not yet been emptied as we have not yet arrived at the point in time where the Phase "ends' because the conditions for that have not been met.

If you haven't yet reached the end of the phase, then it is not yet time to do things that happen at the end of the phase.

I'm open to someone else being able to knock it down within the confines of Raw, English, and Logic. That would be a relief really. No one has yet. People just get mad at me for a while and then stop talking, generally.

As for the required use of english to distinguish between the noun and verb, can the point at which something ends be called the end?

You assume that because, as with your earlier point about movies, "the end" is a variable amount of time that could be anywhere from the final full third to the last few seconds in span.

The definition just under the one you posted earlier. States that the noun can be used to describe the actual point where something ends (verb). Which in common english, the english that english people like the writers actually use, is interchangeable with the verb.

"The song has reached the end (noun)" is interchangeable with "the song has ended (past tense verb)"

 insaniak wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
the Warp Charge Pool has not yet been emptied as we have not yet arrived at the point in time where the Phase "ends' because the conditions for that have not been met.

If you haven't yet reached the end of the phase, then it is not yet time to do things that happen at the end of the phase.

I'm sorry, it's clear you're not unstanding what I'm saying about the sequence, and about the "end of the phase" and the time that the phase "ends" being separate and having separate rules and conditions for arrival and thus separate places in the timeline. I think you might find the reply to Nosferatu 1001 with all the caps (that is appended into my big reply to jokerkd) like 5 posts up there explains that better, followed by a re-reading of the two bold paragraphs in the jokerkd reply.

So, it's no jump of logic to say that "the phase has ended" is the same as saying " you've reached the end of the phase"

 jokerkd wrote:
As for the required use of english to distinguish between the noun and verb, can the point at which something ends be called the end?

You assume that because, as with your earlier point about movies, "the end" is a variable amount of time that could be anywhere from the final full third to the last few seconds in span.

The definition just under the one you posted earlier. States that the noun can be used to describe the actual point where something ends (verb). Which in common english, the english that english people like the writers actually use, is interchangeable with the verb.

"The song has reached the end (noun)" is interchangeable with "the song has ended (past tense verb)"

A noun and a verb are not interchangeable. The 'sentences" you've posted here are interchangeable because you've switched the verb "reached" for the verb "ended" if you read the relevant sections of the rules, the sentence structure leaves no such room for the noun "end" and the verb "ends" to be interchanged.