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Lol just army swapped with my local Tau player today. We had pre-made lists and I suggested it because he said he wanted to get another army and was looking at GK.
ABSOLUTE ANNIHILATION!
This is a guy who has a year and a half of experience as Tau getting in a game at minimum a week. I tabled him T3 off a interceptor shot w/ a Riptide. Oh man, that was a horrible point and click adventure.
5 point interceptor, disgusting. Can't say I wasn't gleeful, he felt the pain.
Jancoran wrote: So does the general even matter, in your opinion.
General always matters, just when the codex is stronger it matters less so.
The difference between an Eldar player and a GOOD Eldar player is one only aims to table, the other WILL table you and win on points because he will use the mobility they have to score fast.
For Tau it becomes more a game of target priority. You have to know what the opponent's units are capable of which is pretty easy because you simply have to ask. If you ask me the difference between a good and bad Tau player, it is that the good player realizes he will have to sacrifice some units for the best result, the bad one will start cracking when the pressure starts simply because they aren't used to having to deal with a game they did not dictate.
Martel732 wrote: It matters, but much less with a 7.0 list vs a 7.5 list. The mathematics are very overwhelming.
I feel like this is where a lot of the problems people experience are coming from. A space marine player VS a tau player or eldar VS tau can be a fun close match where quality of the general actually matters, but when your dealing with any codex pre necrons vs another pre necron list it becomes a blow out. The problem isn't tau so much IMO as GW not giving other armies the update they need.
The thing I find annoying, is that as a tau player we're always given more hate. It's rather annoying when half the people at the GW call your army cheese as a guy your about to play puts down his thunder wolf calv and complains just because you've brought pathfinders. Other armies are comparable to tau in strength but the one people always hate on is us. It gets rather annoying when someone says your army is weebo, shouldn't be in 40k, is noble bright, and that bringing a list that doesn't spam OP units is still cheese by virtue of being tau. We have to deal with some people calling fire warriors OP. I know this may seem hyperbolic, but when some people in the community think fire warriors are OP, what am I supposed to do if I don't want to be a cheese monger? Run an army of pure vespid?
I guess this is why it urks me when I see the ITC nerf to coordinated fire power and ghost keals (which was blatantly not RAW) and the piranha wing (which was a fun formation turned meh by the ruling). When space marines and eldar don't get hit too hard and then tau get smacked on the hand, it just seems like it's something biased because I've been very much trained to assume people are biased when talking about tau. When you've a vocal part of the community who complain about your army endlessly, it's hard not be made a bit more sensitive to stuff.
Part of me wishes in hindsight that I'd of made this discussion about tau's treatment by the community, and how they're always singled out when it's time for criticism. I feel like the problem here is far bigger than just tau's current powerlevel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/12 11:02:50
Eldar for being way ahead of the power curve every edition. (Gamgee a Tau player made a thread about boycotting Eldar games) Space Marine because all xenos players don't like they get updates every other month, grav, gladius. Chaos Space Marine for complaining Blood Angels for complaining Grey Knights for Mary Sue and 5th... and Draigo... and Babycarrier... Tyranids because flyrants/FMC in general Space Woofs because woof woof woof Sisters because "Hey at least your GETTING an update/model"
Honestly a large part of the treatment is because Tau are a nail that's sticking out, every other faction has taken the gak that is tossed at them in stride and managed not to make ten+ threads a month complaining. It was actually really quiet on the board for the last few weeks regarding Tau besides "Which army do you dislike playing most?". Tau are a minority that pushes an issue that only concerns itself, so when the vast majority pushes back with issues that are worse and haven't been addressed while saying "Why are you so special? We have bigger/more problems!"... don't be surprised.
Some of the other threads that I see for BAD factions are asking how can we be better? They're brainstorming to fix their codex's key issue within RAW. I haven't seen a Tau thread that should be asking "How can we be more fun to fight?" in a while, I think the last one was coincidentally a month or two ago when the board was getting sick of the Tau ITC threads and as a result all the feedback was snarky. Maybe a new one is in order?
People banter about armies all the time, people complain I bring 2 Dreadknights I don't care, I know they're still going to play me, it's that or play a Necron vs. Necron mirror match with the others guys (why the feth does everyone own Necrons at my store). I go "woe is me, fething WRAITHS" a decent amount. Honestly it isn't cheese until it reaches the point they say no I don't want to play you. As for fluff... people bitch about fluff ALL the time, look at that goddamn Background board, #2 thread "What retcons did you dislike?" 8 pages worth, another thread "What fluff do you like?" 1 page.
EDIT: Grammer hard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/12 12:11:32
Quickjager wrote: They're brainstorming to fix their codex's key issue within RAW. I haven't seen a Tau thread that should be asking "How can we be more fun to fight?" in a while, I think the last one was coincidentally a month or two ago when the board was getting sick of the Tau ITC threads and as a result all the feedback was snarky. Maybe a new one is in order?
This would have been a good idea, if only GW hadn't given us a functional reprint of the previous Codex. I mean, they didn't even change the art on the front! just a pastel swap. They took the 'broken' stuff in the book (Riptide) and rather than making some of the minor changes in the entry suggested by the community (+15p to the cost of the Ion Accelerator), they doubled down and allowed us to field them in units of up to 3, and gave us a reason to do so (not that they needed to. . .).
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Yea in that regards you're like the Eldar, ahead of the power curve and are expected to take the hate because you have good codex. Honestly the Tau need to become more generalized, its all shooty and not many armies play it as well as they do as those that potentially can are AV.
I stand by the fact I think the Tau need a complete codex revamp to make Farsight Doctrines more prominent for melee.
Jaxler wrote: If the reason why they did this was to balance the game, then it seems like they should of also hit every other competitive army with the nerf bat. Seeing as they didn't do that though, it makes me feel like they were Picking on tau to a certain extent.
Gamgee wrote: Not even close considering the Tau haven't won any major ITC tournaments. As power creep closes in expect them to get shut out more and more. They're currently tier 1.5 in the ITC.
Merellin wrote: As to why Tau where nerfed, Because they are Tau. Thats it, If people get a chance to nerf Tau they will nerf Tau. Thats just how Things are.
Kriswall wrote: Are the Tau strong? Sure... if you let me sit there and shoot you. Are they top tier? Measurably not. As has been mentioned, Tau lists simply don't win tournaments. They don't even place in the top 10. Allowing the community to make arbitrary rules changes to weaken an army that ISN'T winning consistently (or even occasionally) is hard to take... especially when the actual winning lists to get to pull the same tricks event after event.
As usual the same Tau players are complaining because the Tau are not winning every tourney. Yet Tau are better than the following armies today.
* Sisters
* Blood Angels
* Dark Angels
* Cult Mechanius
* Skitarii
* Astra Miliarum
* CSM * Dark Eldar
* Harlequins
* Imperial Knights
* Inquisition
* Khorne Daemonkin
* Militarum Tempestus
* Assassains
* Orks
* Nids
* GK * LoTD
Therefore the only conclusion I can draw is ....
Edit : Added GK and LodD for Quickjager
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/12 12:54:01
If I'm completely honest, yes, I think Tau get nerfed because they are Tau.
But then again. If an army comes out first on every "What army is the most annoying/irritating/frustrating/gak to play against" poll (which are made on a nearly weekly basis), maybe people are kind of justified in trying to make it a bit less annoying/irritating/frustrating/gak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/12 15:34:24
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.
Jancoran wrote: So does the general even matter, in your opinion.
General always matters, just when the codex is stronger it matters less so.
The difference between an Eldar player and a GOOD Eldar player is one only aims to table, the other WILL table you and win on points because he will use the mobility they have to score fast.
For Tau it becomes more a game of target priority. You have to know what the opponent's units are capable of which is pretty easy because you simply have to ask. If you ask me the difference between a good and bad Tau player, it is that the good player realizes he will have to sacrifice some units for the best result, the bad one will start cracking when the pressure starts simply because they aren't used to having to deal with a game they did not dictate.
I dunno bout that. I've seen pretty good proof here and elsewhere that people are giving the codex all the glory and not even asking when someone screams "OMG Tau table me every game" or whatever, as to what the guy being tabled did to deserve it. CAN it happen? sure.
I'll say this. the really nasty Tau lists require that the opponent not make any dumb errors... And that sounds a lot like most "narsty" versions of most codex's. So there again, I think that the General is not being accorded his fault as may be appropriate nor his due. heck Space marines place well almost every time not because the codex is better but there are just MORE OF THEM to try!
The Wulfen are scarier than the Tau Empire in my opinion, when properly played. My experience so far with them has been hairy to say the least. I've had to SERIOUSLY work hard to get those wins and it doesn't matter with what army. I think the new hate should be directed at Wulfen. I say that....but then I am 5-2 against Wulfen. So the General matters. I dont think people give that nearly enough weight. The Wulfen is scary though and it won't take long for me to lose another game to them I imagine. All my wins were close affairs and that codex is just crazy good. But then its space Marines so for some weird reason, people dont hate it near as much. Its always been that way with Marines. they just get a shoulder shrug when they break the game as if its supposed to be that way or something, even when it isn't... ah well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/12 19:25:32
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Martel732 wrote: I've always despised tbe mary sue wolves. Ever since 2nd.
General matters, but so do the tools. A lot.
What don't you despise?
I think the general matters more than the units. Mainly because I've seen some truly terrible players.
I don't mind DA being nasty. They deserve it after many years. I kinda don't mind Necrons being rough either. Necrons aren't a "you don't get to play" rough, they are tough to take off the table. I don't mind the DK and GK on the table, even though I think their fluff is basically bad fan fic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/12 20:07:40
Do I feel like the Tau needed to be nerfed? Yes. Does that mean they SHOULD be nerfed? No. I feel like there should have been a lot more data collected before the ITC decided to nerf the Tau, and I feel like they should not have made so many nerfs at once. I still feel like nerfs were needed based on non itc games I have played against tau, but I think there should have been more of a scalpel approach rather than a chainsaw.
Eldar on the other hand are just complete cheese. Even their garbage is good. Eldar are the thing that really and truly needs the nerfs above all else. The Imperium superfriends stuff needs to be toned down a little. I feel like IoM should not be allies with everything among themselves. Certain armies should be sorta super friends like while others should not. Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, Imperial Knights, and Iron Hands should be for obvious reasons. Other IoM factions that are at odds with each other on the other hand should not be all buddy buddy.
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car.
NorseSig wrote: Do I feel like the Tau needed to be nerfed? Yes. Does that mean they SHOULD be nerfed? No. I feel like there should have been a lot more data collected before the ITC decided to nerf the Tau, and I feel like they should not have made so many nerfs at once. I still feel like nerfs were needed based on non itc games I have played against tau, but I think there should have been more of a scalpel approach rather than a chainsaw.
Eldar on the other hand are just complete cheese. Even their garbage is good. Eldar are the thing that really and truly needs the nerfs above all else. The Imperium superfriends stuff needs to be toned down a little. I feel like IoM should not be allies with everything among themselves. Certain armies should be sorta super friends like while others should not. Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, Imperial Knights, and Iron Hands should be for obvious reasons. Other IoM factions that are at odds with each other on the other hand should not be all buddy buddy.
That's only fair, imo. BA seem to get along with most except for the Mechanicus.
in the case of the coordinated firepower , they dont nerf it, just dont allow a wrong interpretation of the rule from some tau players that want win just deploying the army
Franarok wrote: in the case of the coordinated firepower , they dont nerf it, just dont allow a wrong interpretation of the rule from some tau players that want win just deploying the army
which wrong interpretation? The RaW one? The one that says that a buffmander gets to share its buffs across the entire army when doing a CFP, or the one that lets us Target Lock out of a single target (with the buffs)?
They could have limited it to no ICs being in the CFP if MCs are present in the shot, you know like RaW, but that could have been gotten around by giving a Shas'vre the buff equips instead.
Or you know, darkstrider not working with anything not Firewarriors or Breachers, or Pathfinders?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/16 03:05:09
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Darkstrider can't ever be a part of a hunter contingent, even if he joins a unit that does the rules of it won't effect him. He's not a factor here.
Target locking out is RAW allowed, but could have been matched to the Firebase Support Cadre who specifically says all models must shoot at same target, and none would have said a word as its a reasonable change.
The silliest thing about the CFP nerf is that people panicked that "tau could use it to share buffs across entire army!", without realizing just how little such buffs tau actually has.
To list EVERYTHING that can be shared (beyond markers) :
1-PEN chip tank/monster Hunter. Only matters against these targets.
2-the reroll hits signature system, hardly relevant as the CFP makes markerlight buff them all, getting BS 7 or higher with ease.
3-ignores cover item, again hardly relevant as markerlights are a thing.
4-longstrike tank hunter. Spesific target only.
That's it. There is nothing else beyond markers to even share unless you got it via random warlord trait or odd scenario rules or something. (guessing the mirrorcodex too if you are FSE, but that item is God awful even when you know you face marines)
This nerf specifically hardly even effect us. It doesn't really do much to begin with.
What irks us is not the power level change, but the clear attempt to hurt us, an attempt that failed only because of total lack of understanding of the tau codex to begin with.
Other nerfs, the firestorm formation and the ghostkeel, anyone saw them in competitive play in ITC turnies? Once? After a clear change of rules regarding them (not even room to dispute it was outright contradiction of the written rules) they became unplayable. Mostly because even without said nerfs they were of questionable value to begin with.
Now these two are sore spots. Cool units that would allow tau to slightly break out of the "spam riptides or lose" shell and actually be more engaging got taken down with no reason beyond being tau.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Jancoran wrote: So does the general even matter, in your opinion.
General always matters, just when the codex is stronger it matters less so.
The difference between an Eldar player and a GOOD Eldar player is one only aims to table, the other WILL table you and win on points because he will use the mobility they have to score fast.
For Tau it becomes more a game of target priority. You have to know what the opponent's units are capable of which is pretty easy because you simply have to ask. If you ask me the difference between a good and bad Tau player, it is that the good player realizes he will have to sacrifice some units for the best result, the bad one will start cracking when the pressure starts simply because they aren't used to having to deal with a game they did not dictate.
I dunno bout that. I've seen pretty good proof here and elsewhere that people are giving the codex all the glory and not even asking when someone screams "OMG Tau table me every game" or whatever, as to what the guy being tabled did to deserve it. CAN it happen? sure.
I'll say this. the really nasty Tau lists require that the opponent not make any dumb errors... And that sounds a lot like most "narsty" versions of most codex's. So there again, I think that the General is not being accorded his fault as may be appropriate nor his due. heck Space marines place well almost every time not because the codex is better but there are just MORE OF THEM to try!
The Wulfen are scarier than the Tau Empire in my opinion, when properly played. My experience so far with them has been hairy to say the least. I've had to SERIOUSLY work hard to get those wins and it doesn't matter with what army. I think the new hate should be directed at Wulfen. I say that....but then I am 5-2 against Wulfen. So the General matters. I dont think people give that nearly enough weight. The Wulfen is scary though and it won't take long for me to lose another game to them I imagine. All my wins were close affairs and that codex is just crazy good. But then its space Marines so for some weird reason, people dont hate it near as much. Its always been that way with Marines. they just get a shoulder shrug when they break the game as if its supposed to be that way or something, even when it isn't... ah well.
Thats because mureens are the largest playerbase, with that comes the herd mentality. Eldar powers come out "Omg so broken " But when these new powers that are easily far better than them for mureens only, suddenly its "they are good, but not game breaking except that one power!" Unfortunately, tau and necrons will always be considered op, even when their marine counterparts are stronger, just the way she goes for now.
Jaxler wrote: If the reason why they did this was to balance the game, then it seems like they should of also hit every other competitive army with the nerf bat. Seeing as they didn't do that though, it makes me feel like they were Picking on tau to a certain extent.
Gamgee wrote: Not even close considering the Tau haven't won any major ITC tournaments. As power creep closes in expect them to get shut out more and more. They're currently tier 1.5 in the ITC.
Merellin wrote: As to why Tau where nerfed, Because they are Tau. Thats it, If people get a chance to nerf Tau they will nerf Tau. Thats just how Things are.
Kriswall wrote: Are the Tau strong? Sure... if you let me sit there and shoot you. Are they top tier? Measurably not. As has been mentioned, Tau lists simply don't win tournaments. They don't even place in the top 10. Allowing the community to make arbitrary rules changes to weaken an army that ISN'T winning consistently (or even occasionally) is hard to take... especially when the actual winning lists to get to pull the same tricks event after event.
As usual the same Tau players are complaining because the Tau are not winning every tourney. Yet Tau are better than the following armies today.
* Sisters
* Blood Angels
* Dark Angels
* Cult Mechanius
* Skitarii
* Astra Miliarum
* CSM * Dark Eldar
* Harlequins
* Imperial Knights
* Inquisition
* Khorne Daemonkin
* Militarum Tempestus
* Assassains
* Orks
* Nids
* GK * LoTD
Therefore the only conclusion I can draw is ....
Edit : Added GK and LodD for Quickjager
And marines are in the same position and itc hasn't smacked THEM in the face with the nerf hammer for some reason... Oh, AND they are stronger than tau and necrons, so put those armys their as well. Notice something off?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/17 01:49:15
The psychic powers literally came out and have been almost universally held to be OP except technomancy. Librarus is essentially a more defensive Santic. Most people agreen they're gonna be nerfed.
And marines are in the same position and itc hasn't smacked THEM in the face with the nerf hammer for some reason... Oh, AND they are stronger than tau and necrons, so put those armys their as well. Notice something off?
Reece and Frankie talked about their ideas for nerfs to the new powers in a recent Signals from the Frontline. A vote on them and some other things is coming up soon, although no date is set yet.
And now back to your regularly scheduled Tau paranoia........
Because the best way to allow for competitive tournament games is to have 40k players -- who can't remember all the rules, have no idea what game balance looks like, and have held grudges against whole factions for years -- to vote on it.
Before it's even appeared in a tournament game, and while Eldar and Space Marine lists are dominating everyone else.
Preferably after insinuating on BoLS that this status quo will change, if Tau aren't preemptively nerfed.
*drops mic*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 05:02:30
What's the difference between an Ork and a Tau in a fight?
One goes WAAAAGH!
The other goes Waaaaah!
The psychic powers will be nerfed end of story, some have been nerfed already via previous ITC ruling (rerolling 2++ nerf), or just don't work because some ITC terrain is built into the board.
The only ones I can see becoming insane is that one Geomancy one that ignores cover/LoS and Electrodisplacement. But getting either of those reliably would involve not rolling for Invis.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
