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Regardless of your opinion how strong tsu are, it still seems rather biased to be that they chose to nerf tau. Even if people think tau are second best behind eldar, it seems to me that nerfing the second most powerful army does little to balance anything if you only nerf them. The bar set by eldar still stands regardless. Picking on tau arbitrarily instead of tau, necrons, eldar, and space marines seems rather unfair. If the reason why they did this was to balance the game, then it seems like they should of also hit every other competitive army with the nerf bat. Seeing as they didn't do that though, it makes me feel like they were Picking on tau to a certain extent.

Theyre the ones that got a bunch of new stuff so thats what got acted on. That rules interpretations were wildly divergent didnt help.

If Eldar get a grip of new stuff any time soon with much disagreed upon rules, expect it to get hammered as well.

Well, it's not the ITC's job to balance the game. It's to provide ambiguous rules interpretations that they find fair and reasonable, and I personally feel as if they do a good job of that, generally.

So, in the case of the coordinated firepower rule, the concern was that by being able to combine their shooting, and all included special rules, tau shooting would go from amazing to basically unstoppable.

And it's not fair to say they've only target tau this way. They nerfed (or, interpreted, depending on what you play) SM skyhammer formation to disallow attaching ICs and reaping the benefits. So, you couldn't DS and charge with Lysander first turn.

As for eldar, well, they don't have any ambiguous rules. All of their rules are very clear in their overpoweredness. But even then, warp spyders were limited to flicker jumping once per enemy shooting phase.

At any rate, you may hold out hope, GW may FAQ individual armies, and if they do you can bet they'll address that one.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Theyre the ones that got a bunch of new stuff so thats what got acted on. That rules interpretations were wildly divergent didnt help.

If Eldar get a grip of new stuff any time soon with much disagreed upon rules, expect it to get hammered as well.

The raw in the tau codex was pretty clear with only a few bad wordings. Most of the "confusing" wordings were people trying to find ways to argue that the raw wasn't rules as intended. Regardless, there were quite a few rulings they did that were obviously against Raw.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Theyre the ones that got a bunch of new stuff so thats what got acted on. That rules interpretations were wildly divergent didnt help.

If Eldar get a grip of new stuff any time soon with much disagreed upon rules, expect it to get hammered as well.

The raw in the tau codex was pretty clear with only a few bad wordings. Most of the "confusing" wordings were people trying to find ways to argue that the raw wasn't rules as intended. Regardless, there were quite a few rulings they did that were obviously against Raw.

Well you should try and argue with the vocal opposition to get it redacted.

the ITC also doesn't have to follow RAW ether. its a case of they feel it was over powered and or just opportunity for endless argument so they took an easier route of just nerfing it as they see fit.

its just unfortunate for those who are passionate about tau.

It's that time of the month again. This has been retread enough that reading through past threads should be enough, threads that you have participated in yourself Jaxler. Quit complaining about house rules.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, it's not the ITC's job to balance the game. It's to provide ambiguous rules interpretations that they find fair and reasonable, and I personally feel as if they do a good job of that, generally.

Don't you mean "their job is to make as much money as possible"?

Because that's their only motivation. Well, there's a side dash of making rulings that favor their friends, but mostly it's the money.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, it's not the ITC's job to balance the game. It's to provide ambiguous rules interpretations that they find fair and reasonable, and I personally feel as if they do a good job of that, generally.

Don't you mean "their job is to make as much money as possible"?

Because that's their only motivation. Well, there's a side dash of making rulings that favor their friends, but mostly it's the money.

'

See, this here is how a reasonable discussion dies. Next time just put up a couple of photoshopped pictures of reece with a hitler mustace and frankie with devil horns and save everyone some time, yeah?

Frankie and Reece are not perfect, The ITC does things that many could find objectionable, and nerfing someone's army or prefered playstyle is never an easy pill to swallow, I myself went off pretty hard when I found out about the 'no chapter masters in battle companies' ruling, but I understand some sort of facilitating force is necessary to play a game like this with any sort of competitive spirit in mind. They do what they can, it's not perfect, you could even argue that in some ways it's straight up bad, but it's certainly better than trying to play pre-FAQ RAW.

It's always odd to me that the two things you hear most often on all 40k forums but Dakka especially are 1. GW RULES ARE WRITTEN BY CHIMPANZEES AND SUCK EGGS AND ARE SO VAGUE AND BAD CAN THEY EVEN READ!?!?!?!?!?!?! and 2. HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE AND TRY TO CHANGE GW RULES, YOU'RE NOT GW YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE NEW RULES, WE NEED TO ALL DO GW RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it seems odd to me that so many people hate the way the rules are written, react to attempts to change said rules with hissing and spitting.

Because imperium players complained. And it's either placate 5 precent of your fan base or 50+ precent.

 Orock wrote:
Because imperium players complained. And it's either placate 5 precent of your fan base or 50+ precent.

Sure hasn't seemed to do anything about Eldar or Necrons...

They dont nerf tau, the people do. No one wants to play Tau super op monster hunter, tank hunter.... Who cares if they nerfed tau? they are still top tier. And the only time they nerfed stuff was for flicker jumps, corsair flicker jumps, invis, and ranged d. only one of those things nerf tau. so please think about these things, im tired of seeing people that talk about this

I think it is pretty telling that, in spite of the nerfs, Tau are still performing incredibly well. They are situated pretty evenly with Necrons and Space Marines. Eldar are still a cut above, but Tau are the one army best equipped for dealing with them.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Tau are one of the armies the least negatively affected by the new (awful) flyer rules. So cry me a frickin' river over your "nerfs".

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think it is pretty telling that, in spite of the nerfs, Tau are still performing incredibly well. They are situated pretty evenly with Necrons and Space Marines. Eldar are still a cut above, but Tau are the one army best equipped for dealing with them.

I think its pretty telling that even with the nerfs Tau and Eldar did so well. On the other hand my Orks got nerfed and...wait they didn't get a nerf, and we still didn't do well

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think it is pretty telling that, in spite of the nerfs, Tau are still performing incredibly well. They are situated pretty evenly with Necrons and Space Marines. Eldar are still a cut above, but Tau are the one army best equipped for dealing with them.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Tau are one of the armies the least negatively affected by the new (awful) flyer rules. So cry me a frickin' river over your "nerfs".

Not even close considering the Tau haven't won any major ITC tournaments. As power creep closes in expect them to get shut out more and more. They're currently tier 1.5 in the ITC. Thank god for actual statistical data to back myself up but I've gone into this dozens of times and then some. Look back at my old posts you'll find all the relevant links I use. As a matter of fact I cite this stuff so often I should make my own topic collating the information. It's now been 4 major tournaments since the new Tau update and none of the Tau have taken the top 10. And in the top 25 there has only been two Tau lists/players per Tournament. One of these was revealed to have been erroneously listed as Tau when it was another army. So that makes a grand total of 7 Tau lists in the past 4major tournaments to breach the top 25 and their standings are falling as the year goes on. One Tau player was even nerfed the day he showed up and had no spare models for other list building. It's complete bs the bias that is in the ITC with the Tau. The idea they are "top" tier is a joke considering every new major tournament to get in shows no Tau win.

On top of this with Space Marine power creep and downright game breaking psychic powers that only make their existing top tier lists better we're possibly poised to see Eldar dethroned as the too beat army and list. It all depends on how the meta plays out now.

I know Reccius has the best interest of the ITC at heart and claims he is unbiased but I just can't help but seeing the injustice of it all. No man is perfectly unbiased and I'll continue to beat my drum he has the Tau nerfs done wrong. In some cases he isn't at fault but their voter base and even the other tournament organizers are full of it. There is this perceived bias that Tau really are that good when they aren't.

Because TAU like Eldar are tOOOOOOOOOOOOO powerful.

perhaps because Eldar are buffed by psychic powers, which there is some defense against, while Tau shooting and JSJ has effectively NO defense against. . .

 carldooley wrote:
perhaps because Eldar are buffed by psychic powers, which there is some defense against, while Tau shooting and JSJ has effectively NO defense against. . .

but! but!;.....but! LOS blocking terrain, if we had more of it (insert other useless suggestion here).

You know how to defend against the Tau buffs? Murder their super weak and fragile pathfinders or marker drones who provide their markerlights. Suddenly they hit as well as imperial guard, But with 12 shots per unit instead of 145.

As to why Tau where nerfed, Because they are Tau. Thats it, If people get a chance to nerf Tau they will nerf Tau. Thats just how Things are.

 Gamgee wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think it is pretty telling that, in spite of the nerfs, Tau are still performing incredibly well. They are situated pretty evenly with Necrons and Space Marines. Eldar are still a cut above, but Tau are the one army best equipped for dealing with them.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Tau are one of the armies the least negatively affected by the new (awful) flyer rules. So cry me a frickin' river over your "nerfs".

Not even close considering the Tau haven't won any major ITC tournaments. As power creep closes in expect them to get shut out more and more. They're currently tier 1.5 in the ITC. Thank god for actual statistical data to back myself up but I've gone into this dozens of times and then some. Look back at my old posts you'll find all the relevant links I use. As a matter of fact I cite this stuff so often I should make my own topic collating the information. It's now been 4 major tournaments since the new Tau update and none of the Tau have taken the top 10. And in the top 25 there has only been two Tau lists/players per Tournament. One of these was revealed to have been erroneously listed as Tau when it was another army. So that makes a grand total of 7 Tau lists in the past 4major tournaments to breach the top 25 and their standings are falling as the year goes on. One Tau player was even nerfed the day he showed up and had no spare models for other list building. It's complete bs the bias that is in the ITC with the Tau. The idea they are "top" tier is a joke considering every new major tournament to get in shows no Tau win.

On top of this with Space Marine power creep and downright game breaking psychic powers that only make their existing top tier lists better we're possibly poised to see Eldar dethroned as the too beat army and list. It all depends on how the meta plays out now.

I know Reccius has the best interest of the ITC at heart and claims he is unbiased but I just can't help but seeing the injustice of it all. No man is perfectly unbiased and I'll continue to beat my drum he has the Tau nerfs done wrong. In some cases he isn't at fault but their voter base and even the other tournament organizers are full of it. There is this perceived bias that Tau really are that good when they aren't.

I find that there is this perception that tau are absurdly OP because they can PUB stomp better than almost any other army IMO, though once you get to a competitive setting they're outdone by eldar, space marines and most other top tier armies. This, and people have seemed to always hated tau, and be more willing to complain about them since they were first created. I find it funny that I make a thread about ITC being biased, and in peoples defense of the ITC rulings they saying stuff like "Tau are OP and the best" without any real evidence, when most evidence that's not purely anecdotal actually seems to indicate that they're actually top mid tier.

Tau got 11th at LVO with all of the ITC nerfs. They aren't bad even with the nerfs they just aren't eldar (though nothing is eldar).

In ITC's defense, almost all of the Tau nerfs went through player vote so most of them were voted in by the player base and not just arbitrarily placed in by ITC. That said they did inadvertently bias the vote with some article on the blog about how broken combined fire was but they are just people and are not perfect.

Well, Player vote will always be all non Tau players voting to nerf (Or preferably ban) Tau. Heck even during 5'th edition when Tau where the weakest army in the game, People wanted them to be nerfed even more.

Merellin wrote:
Well, Player vote will always be all non Tau players voting to nerf (Or preferably ban) Tau. Heck even during 5'th edition when Tau where the weakest army in the game, People wanted them to be nerfed even more.

This is hyperbole. Not even all of the tau nerfs got voted into effect (namely the Ghostkeel nerf did not get passed). Tau may be the least favorite army to play against (as supported by a dakka poll on the subject) but the idea that their is a conspiracy that has it out for tau is far-fetched

 CrownAxe wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Well, Player vote will always be all non Tau players voting to nerf (Or preferably ban) Tau. Heck even during 5'th edition when Tau where the weakest army in the game, People wanted them to be nerfed even more.

This is hyperbole. Not even all of the tau nerfs got voted into effect (namely the Ghostkeel nerf did not get passed). Tau may be the least favorite army to play against (as supported by a dakka poll on the subject) but the idea that their is a conspiracy that has it out for tau is far-fetched

I don't have a dog in this fight, but when the codex was dropping/ITC ruling was in discussion the threads on dakka were downright venomous.
They are hated by neckbeards everywhere

Compare that reaction with what happened when SM out-eldar'd eldar on their home turf (or even more fitting for this discussion, when superfriends went legal after ITC voting/ruling) and you can see what I mean. The bias is real, at least to me.

Personaly, I play Tau, They are my favorite army and have been since I started the game during 5'th edition, And I wouldent mind them being a bit weaker then they are right now (Might mean I'd get more matches) But Tau hatred does not come from their power level because they where just as hated in 5'th edition when they where the weakest army in the game.

Edit: Fixed a typo

The community finally had their chance to get those "nope we have a rule exception rule for that" players back and they took it with both hands

SemperMortis wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
perhaps because Eldar are buffed by psychic powers, which there is some defense against, while Tau shooting and JSJ has effectively NO defense against. . .

but! but!;.....but! LOS blocking terrain, if we had more of it (insert other useless suggestion here).

if using terrain when moving your men, deep strike and invuln saves are what you consider to be useless when dealing with firepower, than I fear your problem is larger than just tau.

Also, if you can JSJ so that your model can't be seen from any angel, I suspect you did a poor job setting up the table. Outflank is a thing people can do.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Edit: Forgot to mention, Tau are one of the armies the least negatively affected by the new (awful) flyer rules. So cry me a frickin' river over your "nerfs".

If that's the case then it's because no Tau player in their right mind would take those flyers in the first place.

I don't care how good they are, I'd never use those ugly fething things, anyway. Would have bought three barracudas if they were offered in plastic, though.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Edit: Forgot to mention, Tau are one of the armies the least negatively affected by the new (awful) flyer rules. So cry me a frickin' river over your "nerfs".

If that's the case then it's because no Tau player in their right mind would take those flyers in the first place.

I don't care how good they are, I'd never use those ugly fething things, anyway. Would have bought three barracudas if they were offered in plastic, though.

That. Was. My. Point.

That and Tau can poop out more Skyfire than any other army in the game.

Because they wanted to kick a hornet's nest.

Seriously. How many time has thread been covered?

-They nerfed them, get over it
-Despite the nerfs, Tau are still a top tier army
-Gak happens, the ITC isn't neutral, they don't write rules, they just interpret them

 Jaxler wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Theyre the ones that got a bunch of new stuff so thats what got acted on. That rules interpretations were wildly divergent didnt help.

If Eldar get a grip of new stuff any time soon with much disagreed upon rules, expect it to get hammered as well.

The raw in the tau codex was pretty clear with only a few bad wordings. Most of the "confusing" wordings were people trying to find ways to argue that the raw wasn't rules as intended. Regardless, there were quite a few rulings they did that were obviously against Raw.

Doesn't matter how crystal clear the rules are, if its strong and xenos, it gets nerfed by ITC, regardless of RAW. It's the reason why I keep correcting people who, for whatever reason, think the ITC is an FAQ, it's not an FAQ when they make up their own rules against the raw, its house ruling.