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 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Limeblossom wrote:
This idea is routinely coming back in my list of fanwishes for 40K.

I really want to see an human army opposing the Imperium and toning down the grimdark (like the Tau did in it's first appearance).

Both the Galactic Republic and the American revolution are the the sources of inspiration for me; A group of human inhabited planets decided to rebel against the Imperium with the help of "certain species".

What do you think?

Farsight Enclaves is a democracy.

Which has been ruled by the same guy for like 200 years now (and through his lifestealing he will likely rule indefinitely). Very democratic.

Actually he spent a great deal of his time in a cave for a long long time. So it was a democracy, and now he just keeps getting voted in. So it is a democracy in a weird way. If there were people who could be equal to his position to stand a chance to rule we don't hear about them, but given his age and skill in these matters and he is basically getting old enough and skilled enough to be an Ethereal in his own weird way.

 =Angel= wrote:
Such a coalition of worlds after a few decades may decide they have stronger ties to each other than the Imperium.

It's a possible theory.

No. Even the Tau are grimdark.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
No. Even the Tau are grimdark.

Not in the beginning.

The 5th Soul Drinker book does actually detail something resembling a (classical) republic with multiple planets outside the reach of the Imperium.

It doesn't end well.

Yes, yes yes. I nod so much!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
No noblebright republic in my delicious grimdark please. Unless of course said republic is a grimdark satire of present-day "democracies". That would be fun.
It has to be depressing and dystopian, otherwise it is in the wrong universe. Hopeful rebellions and freedom fighters are perfectly fine, but in the end their ideals have to become twisted and end up worse than whatever it was they were fighting against. That, or they have to meet some other kind of grisly demise because the whole thing was a gruesome plot by Chaos or Dark Eldar or something like that. Such is the way things go in the grim darkness of the far future.

This is how it should be and its so important for me.
The biggest problem with all those ideas are that they end up very badly though out, they just end up as perfect
or like the tau.
People tend to forget, that Chaos have the role of the rebels
just the Imperium as the role of being the galactic order.


The way I would do it.
Is that its an lost colony from the age of technology that resembles a heavily imperialist heavily industrialized
real world country that is technically a democracy.
Perhaps based on authoritarian hi-tech China with the vague "democracy" of America.
that survived by stopping using warp technology and instead traveled slowly like the Necron does.
They possess some tech but should be limited to what the models have not to make them to uber.
Perhaps their servo sculls and servitors are AI or androids meant to look like humans
and the cyber is because they have been damaged.

Unlike the tau they have been constantly under attack from xenos, mutation and psykers.
They solved their psyker by sterilization, eugenics and concentration camps
thereby stabilizing the the mutation rate of their planets.
Because it's democracy is run by greedy omnicorp oligrarchy as ruthless the companies on Chemos
they have no cult mechanicus and see technology like the Squats see technology
and therefore Imperium hates them because they use tech heresies.
The faction has completely depleted the natural resources of their few overpopulated worlds
and grow food and gather resourse from space stations around the sun.

There are already independent planets who decided to leave the Imperium
and tried to be better than the Imperium
and suffered all the problems plus some tasty tragic fate.














Automatically Appended Next Post:
You naive people are horrible.

 Limeblossom wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
No. Even the Tau are grimdark.

Not in the beginning.

You already got one race to be the exception, but you got to have the hole setting.
The setting is grimdark.
There IS no way it can happen without pissing on all the lore. There is ONLY war etc.

The problem with naive people is that they don't accept that different group have different opinions
and they don't accept that different factions have different themes.
naive people must have all the groups with one theme
and all opinions has to be variations of their own.
In my opinion, optimists and the like are never satified
because they need to be protected against all the gak in the setting they don't like.
Pessimists are way more pro-diverse in games.
Pessimists that I talk to have no problems accepting one optimist group or one optimistic situation in a game
and I think this happens in more games than just 40k.


It all boils down to this, optimists are stupid, they break rules
and they are superficial and nothing they come up with
is ever though through.

Pessimist stuff is better because it begins with the details
and doesn't jump directly at the feel of everything is gak.

 Limeblossom wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
No. Even the Tau are grimdark.

Not in the beginning.

They kind of were, it just wasn't as apparent as the IoM. Even back in 4th ed it was implied that the Ethereals used pheromones to control the population, and the Tau foreign policy was still Join Us or Die.

To the OP
I'm sorry but if you're after a toning down of the grimdark you're in the wrong game.
The main thing ,IMHO, that makes the 40k setting so loveable is the hopelessness of the efforts of every soul in the galaxy as it hurtles towards self destruction.
I feel like the grimdark really needs turning up. Make the tau real commies and have them ideologically brainwash entire system populations before utterly exploiti their labour whilst simultaneously starving them to death under the guise that their suffering is for the "greater good".

Doesn't each world of the Farsight Enclave elect their own head? To my knowledge Farsight is never even specifically stated to be an elected head of state, he simply is given supreme authority over the military when he returns because he's viewed as a national hero. I don't recall any fluff saying he's been repeatedly voted into office, mind you I could be wrong since I haven't read Farsight Enclaves for a while.

Honestly 40k never felt very hopeless to me, if you play Imperium;

Oh no Macragge is under attack by an enormous Space Locust Swarm unlike anything we've ever see before? It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by so many Orks! It's okay we won.

Oh no the Galaxy is being overrun by Orks lead by an Ork with ridiculous DBZ powers! It's okay we won.

Oh now our entire Empire's almost divided into half in an enormous Civil War! It's okay we won.

Oh no Sanctus Reach is almost overrun by Orks! It's okay we won.

Has the Imperium lost any narrative campaign or major conflict ever? I mean Taros can't count, its one backwater world acknowledged as inconsequential. Dunno always seemed to me, based off fluff, that the Imperium is winning virtually every major conflict it takes part in. I've always felt Orks should be the hopeless ones, they can't seem to win a single engagement of importance anywhere in the galaxy *shrugs*

I like the original proffered idea though, and I'd encourage you to definitely enjoy Warhammer the way you want to, its a game designed for all players to have fun with.

 Anemone wrote:
Doesn't each world of the Farsight Enclave elect their own head? To my knowledge Farsight is never even specifically stated to be an elected head of state, he simply is given supreme authority over the military when he returns because he's viewed as a national hero. I don't recall any fluff saying he's been repeatedly voted into office, mind you I could be wrong since I haven't read Farsight Enclaves for a while.

Honestly 40k never felt very hopeless to me, if you play Imperium;

Oh no Macragge is under attack by an enormous Space Locust Swarm unlike anything we've ever see before? It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by so many Orks! It's okay we won.

Oh no the Galaxy is being overrun by Orks lead by an Ork with ridiculous DBZ powers! It's okay we won.

Oh now our entire Empire's almost divided into half in an enormous Civil War! It's okay we won.

Oh no Sanctus Reach is almost overrun by Orks! It's okay we won.

Has the Imperium lost any narrative campaign or major conflict ever? I mean Taros can't count, its one backwater world acknowledged as inconsequential. Dunno always seemed to me, based off fluff, that the Imperium is winning virtually every major conflict it takes part in. I've always felt Orks should be the hopeless ones, they can't seem to win a single engagement of importance anywhere in the galaxy *shrugs*

The worldwide 13th Black Crusade EoT campaign? It was explicitly declared a minor victory for the Forces of Disorder. There were tantrums and wild accusations by players on the Forces of Order side and to this day there are people in denial about the results.

I have only recently come back to 40k, I originally left in 3rd edition, and always used to read fluff as propaganda. (As a kid I was very much into history especially the world wars and translated what I learned about the extensive use of propaganda to what I read).
I viewed the stories of victories of the Imperium with an added afterthought of the transition of worlds following the campaigns from functioning parts of the whole to essentially a burden on the resources of the shrinking section of the Imperium which is still actually productive.
The threats closing in are all simultaneous and ever escalating, and I got the sense that the flow of men and materials to the fronts will inevitably falter.
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I recall the Imperium had to abandon the Damocles campaign against the Tau to respond to a tyrannid threat. The Tau were then able to continue the expansion of their sphere of influence, including Imperial controlled systems. This along with many other examples demonstrates that the Imperium does not have the military resources to fight against all the enemies at its borders and often deep inside its own galactic territory.
Another issue it cannot ignore is the way in which its specialist military tool, the space marine chapters, cannot possibly replace their losses fast enough. The Ultramarines may well have defended their home planet from Tyranids but the entire veteran 1st co. was wiped out as a result. These 100 warriors do not on he face of it seem that significant but when you think of the combined possible hundred thousand years combat experience lost forever that is not something that be replaced. The losses of the Astartes are now such that their quality is nowhere near the original per-Heresy level.
This combined with the unarguably shrinking economy, what will undoubtedly be trillions upon trillions of refugees fleeing warzones, and the growing strength of the enemies it tries to hold at bay, I cannot see how the Imperium does not stand in a hopeless position.

The main problem is with the fluff now. Having left and returned to the universe 12 years later I have found the stories of Imperial success even more abundant and shamelessly biased in favour of whoever the protagonist happens to be, this in my opinion certainly has to change. The trumpet blowing for the writers favourite faction is fine on its own but a balance is needed. This may well be down to the writers GW hires but they need to recognise that you can still produce a gripping tale of courage and sacrifice in war without he subect being on the winning side. For me, the darkness has been stripped out and is merely grim now. I would enjoy a story of an entire chapter or 4 of the SMs enduring catastrophic casualties that leave their chapter no longer viable, being disbanded in the wake of the fighting with a death toll into the billions of guardsmen. The Astartes and allies would no doubt win the day but the rest of the planets in the system would be lost within a matter of days, the one system planet they fought tooth and nail for being their Stalingrad (probably for a reason as ridiculous as its mass production of power plants for chimeras). They had attempted the defence of the entire system but with the importance of the manufactorums on what is now a graveyard of a world, the majority of the resources of the defenders had been sucked in to a meat grinder. The production facilities are now irreparable, the billions of refugees are starving aboard ships commandeered for the evacuation ill suited to their new role or caught in the crossfire, and the enemy are now using the other system planets as a staging post for their next push. Imperial forces are left with no choice but to withdraw subjecting the planet, only just won, to exterminatus to deny it to the enemy.
The Imperium will obviously send an even larger force in future to combat this foe, but when will that be? 100 years? 1,000? And by then what of this enemy? Are they a tyranid splinter feet now swelled to 10x its original size? Is it a chaos incursion that has captured and tortured the refugees or soldiers turning how many to their cause? And how many other neighbouring systems have since been overrun?
This we need to see. War is messy (and in the 41st millenium futile) and that IMHO is how it should be portrayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
Doesn't each world of the Farsight Enclave elect their own head? To my knowledge Farsight is never even specifically stated to be an elected head of state, he simply is given supreme authority over the military when he returns because he's viewed as a national hero. I don't recall any fluff saying he's been repeatedly voted into office, mind you I could be wrong since I haven't read Farsight Enclaves for a while.

Honestly 40k never felt very hopeless to me, if you play Imperium;

Oh no Macragge is under attack by an enormous Space Locust Swarm unlike anything we've ever see before? It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by so many Orks! It's okay we won.

Oh no the Galaxy is being overrun by Orks lead by an Ork with ridiculous DBZ powers! It's okay we won.

Oh now our entire Empire's almost divided into half in an enormous Civil War! It's okay we won.

Oh no Sanctus Reach is almost overrun by Orks! It's okay we won.

Has the Imperium lost any narrative campaign or major conflict ever? I mean Taros can't count, its one backwater world acknowledged as inconsequential. Dunno always seemed to me, based off fluff, that the Imperium is winning virtually every major conflict it takes part in. I've always felt Orks should be the hopeless ones, they can't seem to win a single engagement of importance anywhere in the galaxy *shrugs*

The worldwide 13th Black Crusade EoT campaign? It was explicitly declared a minor victory for the Forces of Disorder. There were tantrums and wild accusations by players on the Forces of Order side and to this day there are people in denial about the results.

See if this is true then this is a problem... what i enjoy most about 40k is the setting but any reaction like this shows that those who do react to such a thing are completely irrational and are too attached to their chosen faction

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Well, define "win". The surviving population was sterilized, forced into death labor camps, and then a new population shipped in to occupy the hives.

@Iracundus: But that's not even canon anymore, right? So...I mean...obviously I'm not going to consider it then. I mean it isn't canon anymore, right? Eldrad's alive and none of its happened I thought, didn't the whole Clock get turned back and all of it undone?

After all we couldn't have the Imperium actually lose at something of consequence, that would actually justify the setting.

@Pr3Mu5: The Damocles Crusade is, perhaps, the only major campaign in fluff which is still an Imperium defeat. I'll admit to that. No wonder the Tau are so hated

Personally I would love the Orks to get a few more Damocles Crusades of their own *shrugs*

Oh, but, as any 'True' Imperium fan will tell you (a group I am apparently excommunicated for because I don't think the faction I play with are morally laudable) the Damocles Crusade wasn't a Tau victory at all.

I agree the loss of the Ultramaines 1st Veteran Company should have been a major blow but, well, it just wasn't. It doesn't stop the Ultramarines from doing anything, they're back still beating up Orks in the Corinthian Crusade, taking out Tau in the Zeist Sector, defeating Necron on Damnos. It doesn't really have any appreciable impact. In fact which Major Space Marine Chapter has ever suffered losses which actually prevented them from winning?

I sympathise with your point, completely, but the fact is that it simply isn't so. Just going by the latest narrative campaign books; Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal, Damocles and Warzone Fenris, well...Two of them are called Imperium Victories by the official Fluff (Sanctus Reach and Baal) the Damocles Book isn't called an Imperium victory but is, by the official Fluff called a Tau defeat (in fact the book calls it the greatest Tau defeat in history) and Warzone Fenris is not concluded so I should not jinx it but, honestly, who actually thinks the outcome will be anything other than the Marines getting their act together and humiliating the Chaos Space Marines again (those poor, poor Chaos Space Marines).

I've said it before but I'd like to see major engagements which end with a result other than an Imperium victory. Hence why I find the utter rage at the Tau's victory in the Damocles Crusade so laughable. Its a drop in the ocean, and minor within the universe, yet people want to undo it. I'm left feeling like...okay...so when can anyone other than the Imperium win a fight?

@AegisGrimm: Why would the Imperium not consider this a victory? Huh?

Its explicitly called a victory in multiple sources and the planet's populated and running again pretty quickly so, yeah, its clearly a victory. Angron clearly didn't win.

What would you call an Imperial 'Defeat'?

Taros, the Imperials definitely lost the world to the Tau

Kastor-Novem, the raid on the orks went badly wrong.

Gryphonne IV forge world (complete with attached titan legio and the unique vanquisher pattern) eaten by Tyranids.

Badab & Vraks.....they won, and beat the enemy - who were their own people a few years earlier. So I'm not convinced that's a 'victory'.

Armageddon III is still ongoing, so definitely not 'won'.

@Iocarno24: 'Major' defeat, I said. What it would be? Easy, a situation in which their is a large fluff piece or crunch piece dedicated to the battle emphasising its importance in the narrative of the galaxy.

Now as for your examples;

Taros is already out, see the original post, its acknowledged in the book itself as a backwater of little to no significance to the Imperium at all.

Kastor-Novem is a raid, not going to bother with a raid.

Gryphonne is a good one, thanks, I'll definitely accept that. So the Tyranids have their own Damocles Crusade, good for them.

Sorry but Badab and Vraks are definitely still Imperium victories. They engaged their enemies, destroyed them, reduced their threat and retook the territory. That's their victory.

Also I didn't mention Armageddon III since it is ongoing, hence it has no bearing on this conversation, I mentioned Armageddon II.

So that's one. Well its better than nothing. I could list major Imperium victories if you want?

Pandorax, Horus Heresy, Ichar, Macragge, Shield of Baal, Sanctus Reach, Fenris I (we'll see about II), Armageddon I, Armageddon II, Dark Vengeance, Logan beating Imotehk, Helbrecht beating Imotehk, Damnos, Voltoris, Badab & Vraks, Piscina and I've gotten tired of this already so I'm done.

So beyond Damocles Crusade and Gryphonne IV what other conventional military defeats of significance has the Imperium ever endured? I'm checking out Imperium Battles on Lexicanum and it seems to be a pretty high win-loss ratio. Better than the Orks, Eldar or Tau who have surprisingly poor ones. Still feel most sorry for the Chaos Space Marines though.

I'd question calling Vraks a victory - given that at the start of the campaign Vraks is an Imperial arsenal world, and at the end it's a toxic, radioactive wasteland, the Imperium lost all the weapons stored there and in addition to losing the on-planet forces, lost more than the same number again in Krieg troopers, not to mention a good quarter of the Dark Angels chapter.

Oh - The Orpheus & Vidar Sectors probably count, too.

The Orpheus Sector is a region of space covered by Imperial Armour: Fall Of Orpheus* - the Maynarkh Dynasty gets woken up and despite the intervention of Death Korps (who get killed) and Minotaurs (who get killed) the Imperium loses the war badly enough that the entire sector gets officially dis-established by the high lords.

The Vidar Sector - a region of space which was the setting for the Warhammer World 2013 campaign weekends (I think there were about four or five of them?). It wasn't a particularly lucky region** and the official result was that it was destroyed by a combination of Necron and Tyranid forces.

* Spoilers: Campaign does not go well for the Imperium...

** Notable worlds included Sanctuary 101 and the Imperial 'World' which was actually the Necron World Engine

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Well, define "win". The surviving population was sterilized, forced into death labor camps, and then a new population shipped in to occupy the hives.

thats a win with enhanced production.

Most of the times the Tyranids are stopped it's after the Tyranids have stripped dozens of worlds bare. It's a win for the Imperium after a series of defeats.

Leviathan is such a threat the Imperium didn't even try to fight it.

We wrote:
No we must stick to GW's outdated grimdark theme from the 80's.

Yes we must stick to GW's very up to date grimdark theme
from the 80-90thies which rockes.
We want the 80-90thies stuff, warhammer 40k is by definintion those things,
otherwise you can play warmachine or warcraft that is childfriendly.
Why do you have bring club grimdark with you? because
this is GW stuff, we are using GW stuff because
we are in Club Grimdark.

It's saying grimdark in the box its what we bought,
you optimists are are from the brain dead millenial generation.
New movies and new remakes after year 00 sucks, all movies sucks
and 40k is about better time of sex drugs and heavy metal.









Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anemone wrote:
Doesn't each world of the Farsight Enclave elect their own head? To my knowledge Farsight is never even specifically stated to be an elected head of state, he simply is given supreme authority over the military when he returns because he's viewed as a national hero. I don't recall any fluff saying he's been repeatedly voted into office, mind you I could be wrong since I haven't read Farsight Enclaves for a while.

Honestly 40k never felt very hopeless to me, if you play Imperium;
.

Well I kind of agree if you are talking about the battles results.
But I feel the optimists don't want that, they are want protected fantasy
like the Tau who gets bright stuff without deserving it
and are immune to all rules of grimdark.
The Imperium starts in a gakky situation and every victory matters.
If your faction is marked "good" every victory is useless.

Anyway I think most players made the official story switch in favor of the Imperium.

@Iocarno24: We can call Vraks a Pyrrhic Imperium Victory if you want, that's what it seems to be officially called, but its still an Imperium victory.

Orpheus is described in its own fluff as a stalemate so I'd count it as a stalemate, don't see why it would be an Imperium defeat if it's officially called a stalemate. Isn't a victory, sure, but definitely isn't an outright defeat either.

Is Vidar dead? Sorry I just ask cause I can't find anywhere that the Sector is gone, the most up to date info I can find says it lost two agri worlds to the World Engine before said World Engine was destroyed. My knowledge is far from comprehensive on this matter though so I just don't know, can you give me the source for where it says the Vidar Sector was totally destroyed? The sources I find list it as still being Imperium controlled.

To be clear I appreciate what you're doing but, as can be seen, there can't really be disputed that there's an ENORMOUS disparity in the number of victories to defeats ratio the Imperium possesses compared to anyone else. Particularly in narrative battles with campaign books written about them.

For what it's worth since most of these incidents you list come from the Imperial Armour it does seem that the Forge World tends to give the Imperium bitter almonds with their victories most of the time rather than simply making them Sanctuary Reach style 'we just won' events.

@SomeRandomEvilGuy: Well...I mean the Imperium fought Leviathen in Cryptus and its considered an Imperium victory by official fluff so...no they don't totally avoid it, Kryptman just came up with a (maybe) better way of handling it. Of course said way could totally backfire, we'll have to wait and see, but at current its working.

None of this really changes the facts though, the Imperium has an utterly mind-boggling number of wins compared to every other faction and tends to be immune to defeat in any battle or conflict the fluff hypes as being 'critical' or 'narratively important'. Makes most of the narratives boring to me because I know an Imperium victory is a foregone conclusion. I can barely remember the last time I cracked open a Black Library book or Campaign Supplement and didn't instantly know it'd end with an Imperium Victory of some kind. Gets totally boring to me. The Tau had a bit of the same with the Damocles Crusade (and good on them, when can Orks, Eldar and others get some of that?).

Personally I'd prefer to see all factions getting a bit more actually done. I can hardly take Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, Ghazghkull or the Eldar (all types) seriously with how poor their track records are.

As part of the "grimdarkness" of the narrative, all victories are Pyrrhic, all defeats are crushing. It's a conceit of the setting.

 Anemone wrote:
Doesn't each world of the Farsight Enclave elect their own head? To my knowledge Farsight is never even specifically stated to be an elected head of state, he simply is given supreme authority over the military when he returns because he's viewed as a national hero. I don't recall any fluff saying he's been repeatedly voted into office, mind you I could be wrong since I haven't read Farsight Enclaves for a while.

Honestly 40k never felt very hopeless to me, if you play Imperium;

Oh no Macragge is under attack by an enormous Space Locust Swarm unlike anything we've ever see before? It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by Daemons! It's okay we won.

Oh no Armageddon is under attack by so many Orks! It's okay we won.

Oh no the Galaxy is being overrun by Orks lead by an Ork with ridiculous DBZ powers! It's okay we won.

Oh now our entire Empire's almost divided into half in an enormous Civil War! It's okay we won.

Oh no Sanctus Reach is almost overrun by Orks! It's okay we won.

Has the Imperium lost any narrative campaign or major conflict ever? I mean Taros can't count, its one backwater world acknowledged as inconsequential. Dunno always seemed to me, based off fluff, that the Imperium is winning virtually every major conflict it takes part in. I've always felt Orks should be the hopeless ones, they can't seem to win a single engagement of importance anywhere in the galaxy *shrugs*

I like the original proffered idea though, and I'd encourage you to definitely enjoy Warhammer the way you want to, its a game designed for all players to have fun with.

It's generally agreed they lose to Tau a lot. Despite the fact that both sides lost at the end of their most recent showdown I would say the Imperium got the shorter end of the stick.

@Psiensis: Except the Imperium often just 'wins'. Sanctus Reach, Pandorax, The Horus Heresy (considering how much it thrives we see in the Beast Series in the aftermath of that war), The Second War for Armageddon, The Battle of Macragge, The Adeptus Mechanicus attack on Yme-Loc, the Corinthian Crusade and really tons I can source from Lexicanum if you want.

The Imperium wins more non-pyrrhic victories then pretty much every faction in the setting combined. Some factions, like Craftworld Eldar, I think have one major victory to their entire factons name; Valedor.

So yeah, arguing all the factions are in the same 'boat' isn't really genuine. The Imperium clearly gets more preference in terms of victories than anyone else.

@Gamgee: I don't know about that. The Tau have like three major victories against the Imperium; Daly'th, Agrellan I and Prefectia. Contrast that with the Imperium; the Space Wolves alone have three different victories against the Tau, I know the Dark Angels have a story about how they totally wipe out some Tau colony, the Black Templars retake Nimbosa, Voltoris, the Skitarii and Adeptus Mechanicus in their books got a victory against the Tau so...honestly if you line up the number of victories the Imperium has against the Tau alongside the number of victories the Tau have against the Imperium...the Imperium is still going to have one more battles in fluff I think.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, without a doubt I think the Tau have done well because they lose primarily minor battles and win major ones but...I hardly think they on their own upend this dominant trend. Honestly, as I've said, I'd just like to see the spotlight and victories shared out more equally amongst the factions instead of mostly being hogged by the Imperium.

I wouldn't call Valedor a major victory considering how badly it went.

 Anemone wrote:
there can't really be disputed that there's an ENORMOUS disparity in the number of victories to defeats ratio the Imperium possesses compared to anyone else.
.

There is no disparity.

1.) WH 40.000 has a human POV. Human POV = more info. And the role the Humans play in 40k.

2.) There is the fact wh 40k is based on a Galaxy at war, a scale where you can't really claim to know every Victory or Defeat.
Do you know every Victory or Defeat in Human history ? No? so maybe the snippets you have aren't the whole picture?
History of WH40k starts eons ago, if we use Necrontyr its 60000000, not 40000 years to collect data and to compare victory and defeat. Still sure the Humans get to much ?
You could also use the Billions of Regiments of the Imperial Guard as the basis to compare the ratio of the IoM.... but maybe you don't know how they do?


3.) Remember, 40k is not 1 story to be replayed, its a canvas to draw upon. If I as a player win, does this count? Does it have to be written down by GW to be valid ?
( Let me add that if I was in charge, campaigns would be open ended, its up to the players to win or lose. Because IMO to hand out victory or defeat is a bad idea. )
The whole claim that GW has to make "my" chosen faction win , sounds a bit weird to me. All I would ask for is some general background and my own armchair-generalship Saving/Ruining the lives of my little plastic soldiers.
Victory or Defeat , it will be my fault.

A good 'ol space republic sounds good, sorta like my Gue'vesa heavy Tau army's fluff, a recently rediscovered world on the edge of Tau space that didn't want to be absorbed into the Imperium and ended up calling on the Farsight Enclaves for help. Fun times.

Anyhow, if one likes the grimdark, fine. A certain amount of darkness is integral to the setting, but there's a lot more to the 41st millennium than "everything sucks and nobody really wins". There's space knights and magic men and giant spaceborne cathedrals and exotic locales of every stripe, fighting fungus and oversized ants with bio-guns and Space Egyptian god-enslaving T-1000s, even if "always grimdark all the time" isn't your thing, the space fantasy battle royale and the baroque sci-fi spectacle is appealing, and pretty distinctly 40k.

And quite frankly, I feel that although the motivations for 40k factions work, and are interesting in their own way, they're still sort of lacking. Many times, it simply feels like the men of the Imperium aren't fighting for anything worthwhile, which kinda sucks in my book. "Huzzah brother, we have driven off the horrid invaders. Now we can execute the civilians who saw daemons and the rest can return to the grueling and soulcrushing careers utterly devoid of joy that they were born into, mostly manufacturing bullets so we can kill more new and different things". Individual lives are valuable, no matter how the Imperium treats its subjects, but the IoM doesn't seem worth saving.

Besides, the fluff has shown that many of the smaller coalitions conquered during the Great Crusade were getting along just fine without the Emperor coming in and forcing them to take up his Secular Humanist Fascism, the Interex, the Brotherhood, the "False Imperium", were all doing lovely without the Emperor. The Tau have shown that having smaller, self sufficient units of government is viable, even against threats like the tyrannids, as seen when Hive Fleet Kraken was successfully repelled from Tau space after the Tau had been weakened by the Damocles Crusade.

The "everyone important is evil all the time" schtick worked when 40k was in it's sorta silly, '80s phase. But now, the 40k setting has matured a bit, and takes itself more seriously, and in many ways it is an improvement. That being said, with the more heroic and almost high fantasy tone 40k has taken, it needs real heroes to accompany it. Nobody's demanding that Superman fly over from Krypton, team up with the puppy squad and usher in a thousand year era of peace, prosperity, and pluralism, but Warhammer 40,000 needs a few real glints of hope and goodness with a bit more sway than Farsight, Blackmane, and a few Salamanders. 40k needs something actually worth preserving.

 Anemone wrote:

@SomeRandomEvilGuy: Well...I mean the Imperium fought Leviathen in Cryptus and its considered an Imperium victory by official fluff so...no they don't totally avoid it, Kryptman just came up with a (maybe) better way of handling it. Of course said way could totally backfire, we'll have to wait and see, but at current its working.

They avoid it as much as possible and were forced into fighting a small tendril and only won with the aid of the Necrons.

Every battle with a major Chapter, Craftworld or whatever threatened with result in them winning.

3AcresAndATau wrote:Besides, the fluff has shown that many of the smaller coalitions conquered during the Great Crusade were getting along just fine without the Emperor coming in and forcing them to take up his Secular Humanist Fascism, the Interex, the Brotherhood, the "False Imperium", were all doing lovely without the Emperor.

How many would have done fine once Chaos sunk their claws in? Or the Beast (or any large Waagh!) came along? Or the Tyranids or the Necrons?

Those colonies conquered during the Great Crusade would have been annihilated sooner or later and likely without any survivors. Survival is preferable to extinction. No matter the cost.

Plus 40K does have real heroes. They just tend to die fighting.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Those colonies conquered during the Great Crusade would have been annihilated sooner or later and likely without any survivors. Survival is preferable to extinction. No matter the cost.

Plus 40K does have real heroes. They just tend to die fighting.

The fact that the majority of the galaxy is actually "wilderness space" and not under direct Imperial control, and the fact that small human colonies or empires are found regularly whenever this space is explored suggests survival is definitely possible without the Imperium. Some of these settlements and pocket empires have existed for centuries or millennia even since the Age of Strife. The Imperial way therefore is not the only way.

Anemone wrote:@Psiensis: Except the Imperium often just 'wins'. Sanctus Reach, Pandorax, The Horus Heresy (considering how much it thrives we see in the Beast Series in the aftermath of that war), The Second War for Armageddon, The Battle of Macragge, The Adeptus Mechanicus attack on Yme-Loc, the Corinthian Crusade and really tons I can source from Lexicanum if you want.

Let's go through that list of "Victories".

Sanctus Reach - Can't say much on this, but didn't the Ork WIPE OUT an ENTIRE Space Marine Chapter? That's 1/1000 of the Imperium's Chapters gone right there - a rather major blow against the Imperium, no? Yes, the Orks died, but they hit far above their size considering it wasn't even a Waaagh! comparable to say, Ghazghkull or the Arch Arsonist of Charadon.

Pandorax - Lexicanum states the Imperial losses were "Heavy" - same as the Chaos forces. Maybe not pyrrhic, but certainly not crushing.

Horus Heresy - Half of the Imperium's might LEFT and attacked the loyal side. Most Primarchs were killed or went missing during or soon after this period, and perhaps strongest of all - the Emperor himself was rendered catatonic. I think that's a pretty big loss on the Imperium's end, no? Easily pyrrhic there.

Second Armageddon War - Lexicanum also states that "Most of the planet (was) destroyed". Not to mention that the Orks were on the cusp of winning, had it not been for the three Space Marine Chapters that broke the siege on Hades Hive. It was a massive loss of men and resources for the Imperium.

Battle of Macragge - Loss of an Emperor Class Battleship, entire 1st Company wiped out, heavy losses Chapter-wide and especially the 3rd and 7th Companies which took the Chapter 116 years to recover from, Tyranid organisms still roaming Macragge after the war and Calgar, one of the Imperium's finest warriors, nearly killed by the Swarmlord. That's rather pyrrhic.

I can't say much about the others, but of most of the ones you said, they aren't flat Imperial victories at all.

The Imperium wins more non-pyrrhic victories then pretty much every faction in the setting combined. Some factions, like Craftworld Eldar, I think have one major victory to their entire factons name; Valedor.

Eldar have the near annihilation of the Invaders Chapter, the event described as the Exodus, the Betalis Campaign, the Swordwind Strikes and the Yarant Wars.

Iracundus wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Those colonies conquered during the Great Crusade would have been annihilated sooner or later and likely without any survivors. Survival is preferable to extinction. No matter the cost.

Plus 40K does have real heroes. They just tend to die fighting.

The fact that the majority of the galaxy is actually "wilderness space" and not under direct Imperial control, and the fact that small human colonies or empires are found regularly whenever this space is explored suggests survival is definitely possible without the Imperium. Some of these settlements and pocket empires have existed for centuries or millennia even since the Age of Strife. The Imperial way therefore is not the only way.

Yes, but have the smaller empires actually been attacked by a full scale Eldar assault, a Chaos incursion, or an Ork Waaagh? They could easily be so small and insignificant to not attract attention - it's survival, but not flourishing.