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I don't think you guys are taking this suggestion far enough,

What turn 1 assault needs is more random dice rolls, for each of your units, who knows which of them could end up in close combat.

Random dice rolls for the Random = Balance Gods.

Assault being weak is a good thing. Melee combat should be an occasional thing, done to finish off the last survivors of a unit that you've crippled and pinned down with shooting. If you bring a whole army of screaming idiots with swords then you should lose every time when the other side brings guns.

The main reason why 40K is enjoyable to me as a setting even though it has sci-fi elements is that it is firmly rooted in Fantasy. I hate the idea that shooting should be first. This is Fantasy in space, not sci-fi. High levels of technology and reasoning have no place in Warhammer 40k.

Assault and shooting should be 50/50 at all times. I should be able to bring an all Assault army and still have a reasonable chance at taking on a Tau gunline.

Blood for the Blood God.

 Peregrine wrote:
Assault being weak is a good thing. Melee combat should be an occasional thing, done to finish off the last survivors of a unit that you've crippled and pinned down with shooting. If you bring a whole army of screaming idiots with swords then you should lose every time when the other side brings guns.

Then assault units should be priced accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
As far as the other comment about LoS Block terrain and setting up all that. Most Tournaments I have been to limit terrain to a specific number. usually 3+D6 or some such nonsense. Very rarely do have the ability to grab giant buildings and place them in a way in which I can assault around/through them and he can't shoot me. Furthermore everyone seems to be forgetting one key thing, Difficult terrain! Instead of moving 6 and running D6 they are moving D6 and running D6, so you probably lost 2-3 inches of movement each turn. Plus if there is terrain when you assault that is -2 to charge distance. Ohh and god forbid if their is a grav field -4 to charge, better hope for some good rolls.

Yeah well no surprise if you play in enviroment that's geared from the get go toward shooty lists they get bonus from the get go. Tournaments play with ridiculously low terrain count. That's hardly problem with rules though. Imagine how crappy shooting armies would become in boards with proper terrain if stuff people are clamouring for would be implemented...Might just as well sell any shooting armies.

Tournaments should aim for more terrain to begin with. While not perfect solution it helps AND makes games visually more appealing to begin with!

And there's LOS blocking terrain that isn't difficult terrain either

The rules don't define "proper terrain". That is VERY MUCH an issue with the rules.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

Roknar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Assault being weak is a good thing. Melee combat should be an occasional thing, done to finish off the last survivors of a unit that you've crippled and pinned down with shooting. If you bring a whole army of screaming idiots with swords then you should lose every time when the other side brings guns.

Part of the appeal of grimdark is this goofiness:

And I'd like to keep it that way lol. Kharn would be much less attractive as a speck under a titans boot compared to soloing it with an axe to the face.

There's difference between assaults being viable and assaults being the king.

2nd ed had much more viable balance. Guns were main threat(hey even orks had viable shooting!) but provided you used missions and had real terrain even assaults had a role to play. When you need to drive entrenched enemy out of the objective throwing in assault troops(properly supported) can be hell of a more faster way than lobbing shells at them.

First turn assaults hardly make assault king. It's already possible to get first turn assaults and that hardly has any impact on the game as a whole. TWC were scary before wulfen and there is the fist of khorne.
Some units getting a rule that allows them to assault turn 1 would not break the game. As long as you can't consolidate into another unit, it wouldn't be any more dangerous than some of the crazier guns/spells out there. Sure, the game would benefit from being toned down rather than ramping things up all the time, but I really don't think it would unbalance the game any more than it already is.

Unless you really want to go full ham and make an entire army first turn charge but good luck finding players with that. You can pretty much already do it, but nobody does.

Roknar wrote:
First turn assaults hardly make assault king. It's already possible to get first turn assaults and that hardly has any impact on the game as a whole. TWC were scary before wulfen and there is the fist of khorne.
Some units getting a rule that allows them to assault turn 1 would not break the game. As long as you can't consolidate into another unit, it wouldn't be any more dangerous than some of the crazier guns/spells out there. Sure, the game would benefit from being toned down rather than ramping things up all the time, but I really don't think it would unbalance the game any more than it already is.

Unless you really want to go full ham and make an entire army first turn charge but good luck finding players with that. You can pretty much already do it, but nobody does.

Consolidiate isn't that big of a help. Sure it's nice but that could be migated by deploying.

Problem is if first turn assault is possible basically only ways to hurt those units is overwatch(apart from d-flamers that's not generally that effective...) and your own CC units. Those CC units will be spending their game in CC all game...

Of course if game would allow shooting into CC...

We need LESS turn 1 game deciders. Not more. Shooting needs to be nerfed so there's less of turn 1 game deciding. Not "let's add CC turn 1 wins to mix as well!"

And finding players? Good luck trying to prevent what rules allow. On that logic wraithknight+warp spider+scat bike spam isn't problem either. "good luck finding players with that".

tneva82 wrote:

Roknar wrote:
First turn assaults hardly make assault king. It's already possible to get first turn assaults and that hardly has any impact on the game as a whole. TWC were scary before wulfen and there is the fist of khorne.
Some units getting a rule that allows them to assault turn 1 would not break the game. As long as you can't consolidate into another unit, it wouldn't be any more dangerous than some of the crazier guns/spells out there. Sure, the game would benefit from being toned down rather than ramping things up all the time, but I really don't think it would unbalance the game any more than it already is.

Unless you really want to go full ham and make an entire army first turn charge but good luck finding players with that. You can pretty much already do it, but nobody does.

Consolidiate isn't that big of a help. Sure it's nice but that could be migated by deploying.

Problem is if first turn assault is possible basically only ways to hurt those units is overwatch(apart from d-flamers that's not generally that effective...) and your own CC units. Those CC units will be spending their game in CC all game...

Of course if game would allow shooting into CC...

We need LESS turn 1 game deciders. Not more. Shooting needs to be nerfed so there's less of turn 1 game deciding. Not "let's add CC turn 1 wins to mix as well!"

That would be nice, but turn 1 deciders can't be countered by turn 3 deciders.

Because people like to cause the opponent to pick up models off the table by the bucket load and get much pleasure from a turn 2 tabling and will complain incessantly if it can't be done. All kinds of twists to logic will appear in order to safeguard their tabling shenanigans. After all, how can some one win at all costs so long as there is at least on viable way to to step on it. No that won't do. Such counters should be purged for the heresy it is before any game starts.

I am still puzzled as to why people think IG shooting is that big of a deterrent to assault armies.
"*Set up the gunline*
>1st turn, generic assault army

"I Ds/droppod this, this and this in right on top of you"

'Oh hell, shoot fast and pray I dont scatter onto my own side'

>Turn two

"Assault time" *rubs hands together*

By turn three/four my line is just about rolled up.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still puzzled as to why people think IG shooting is that big of a deterrent to assault armies.
"*Set up the gunline*
>1st turn, generic assault army

"I Ds/droppod this, this and this in right on top of you"

'Oh hell, shoot fast and pray I dont scatter onto my own side'

>Turn two

"Assault time" *rubs hands together*

By turn three/four my line is just about rolled up.

Because it is if you build your list correctly. Murder the units that come out of the pods. Or roll with 50 man blobs with multiple force/power axes with a 4++ and fearless/stubborn.

Quit using overcosted russ hulls and non-wyvern artillery.

50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

50man blobs are very easily removed these days, and Wyverns, while great, arent panaceas to everything.

Ultimately, assaults from drop pods and turn 1 have generally always been disallowed for the most part for a reason. The game has many issues, but allowing such things wont fix any of them, its just adding more garbage to the mountain of trash.

 master of ordinance wrote:
50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

Well that's your mistake, then. Explains some of your problems. Get Wyverns.

If your opponent has vindicators, you've already got a big advantage. Because they are not good.

Turn 1 charges would break the game, though they would offer some answer to Tau and Eldar...

....though the argument I am seeing seems to be "Tau and Eldar broke the game, so let's stomp on the smashed wreckage and then maybe assault will be fun again!"

There are more issues to this game that need addressing that are far more important than not assaulting Turn 1.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

Well that's your mistake, then. Explains some of your problems. Get Wyverns.

If your opponent has vindicators, you've already got a big advantage. Because they are not good.

Wyverns? They will die to DS infantry in a turn.
Vindicators that are invisible work very well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Turn 1 charges would break the game, though they would offer some answer to Tau and Eldar...

....though the argument I am seeing seems to be "Tau and Eldar broke the game, so let's stomp on the smashed wreckage and then maybe assault will be fun again!"

There are more issues to this game that need addressing that are far more important than not assaulting Turn 1.

There are already at least two ways to reliably first turn assault. And from what I can tell, it didn't break the game. Especially the fist of khorne given how small of a formation it is. You'd be seeing it in every game if it was that broken. You wouldn't even have to worry about come the apocalypse.

Like I said, the game really needs to turn down the power dial (for normal games at least), but with the current state of the game? No big deal.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

Well that's your mistake, then. Explains some of your problems. Get Wyverns.

If your opponent has vindicators, you've already got a big advantage. Because they are not good.

Wyverns? They will die to DS infantry in a turn.
Vindicators that are invisible work very well.

Bubble wrap them? I would've thought that would be easy with Guard.

Well remember what some people think. If they sees 3 Wyverns they're quitting the game because you're a TFG cheesemonger.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

Well that's your mistake, then. Explains some of your problems. Get Wyverns.

If your opponent has vindicators, you've already got a big advantage. Because they are not good.

Wyverns? They will die to DS infantry in a turn.
Vindicators that are invisible work very well.

That's a pretty unfair comparison. A 50 man blob with invisiblity is also immune from the vindicator and would protect the wyvern just the same.
wyverns are barrage aren't they? Wouldn't bubblewrapping them do the trick to protect from DS death?

Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Tau are not OP. Here's another smart person who figured it out by doing actual research. Came to the same conclusion as I did. Not only that he devled into two more tournaments info than I did and the data in them continues to back up our theory that Tau are top of the mid tier, but not OP. Not by a long shot. http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are not OP. Here's another smart person who figured it out by doing actual research. Came to the same conclusion as I did. Not only that he devled into two more tournaments info than I did and the data in them continues to back up our theory that Tau are top of the mid tier, but not OP. Not by a long shot. http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

Except that the tournaments (well at least LVO) had several large restrictions on Tau, which is why they didn't do as well.

4th edition is when I remembered Assault being king, and even then 1st turn assaults were rare.

However 1st turn assaults are unfun to play against and to play as, since it requires little brain cells to concoct up beyond "find the shortest distance and most modifiers" to use. I think a better solution would be more assault-enabled transports in assault based armies (Tyranids, Chaos and to a lesser extent Orks could all use this) and make Assault in general more reliable.

Right now you have a random charge distance that might result in a failed charge, being shot by overwatch, and if you use unwieldy weapons you might not even get to attack before you're killed. Compare that to shooting; in shooting you get to pre-measure distances before shooting (you can pre-measure in assault too but you are not guaranteed a charge, while shooting will pretty much guarantee to be in range), there is zero chance for any sort of retaliation, and even if you're firing a heavy weapon in sub-optimal conditions (snapfiring) there's still not a whole lot that can go wrong (unlike trying to use a power fist).

I would like to say though that I'd prefer having assault from Deepstrike and outflanks. This would make those actions more tactical. I dislike the idea of consolidating into an enemy, as that was the primary reason Assault was ridiculous in 4th edition (a 200 point space marine captain with lightning claws and a jump pack could bunny hop through 800 points of enemy troops by consolidating into one combat after another)

 Melissia wrote:
Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Because they aren't going to get nerfed by GW. Also, there's still wolfstar, gravstar, DA shenanigans, etc. There's too much to nerf now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are not OP. Here's another smart person who figured it out by doing actual research. Came to the same conclusion as I did. Not only that he devled into two more tournaments info than I did and the data in them continues to back up our theory that Tau are top of the mid tier, but not OP. Not by a long shot. http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

They can table a lot of lists pretty damn quickly for not being OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
50 man blobs that die to Vindicators, etc.

Now if I had SOME form of interceptor.... that would really help.

And I do not use artillery. Ever. It is stupidly priced and dies to my enemies farts.

Well that's your mistake, then. Explains some of your problems. Get Wyverns.

If your opponent has vindicators, you've already got a big advantage. Because they are not good.

Wyverns? They will die to DS infantry in a turn.
Vindicators that are invisible work very well.

Wyverns are cheap. Most DS infantry isn't. It's unlikely even a full melta drop will kill all of them. And then they lose everything the dropped.

Invisibility makes almost everything good. That's a non argument. If you they casting it on their vindicators, you've won already.

 Melissia wrote:
Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Cause it's far too radical idea to fix the problem rather than try to bandaid at the expense of everything else. Because Eldar and Tau are broken let's concentrate only on that.

Come to think of...That's pretty much mindset what gets GW rules into the mess they are. GW concentrates on only one thing forgetting bigger picture. End result is what we got.

Players are now doing same mistake. Well they can't blame GW then when they are doing same thing

Take a talon strikeforce, take a shadowstrike, assault turn one every game.

I just wish Tau players could admit they are broken. I play marines, and I'm willing to admit white scar gladius' are pretty stupid broken. Then again, I've never heard of a Gladius winning a big tournament, mostly Eldar, Daemons and Space Wolf primaries.

Also, they just nerfed the Thunderwolf star, White Scars can't share their Chapter Tactics with other Marine chapters, including BA/SW/DA/GK.

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Because they aren't going to get nerfed by GW. Also, there's still wolfstar, gravstar, DA shenanigans, etc. There's too much to nerf now.

Therefor, feth those armies that would be hurt the most by this?

That's bad game design if I've ever heard it. All you're doing is escalating things, when things need to be deescalated.

Because if your response to some things being OP is to say "okay, make my stuff OP, too", then you're just gonna make everything OP, and the game will end up as just "roll dice to determine who wins turn one" every time. Might as well not show up and put the effort of putting models down if a coin toss is what'll determine who wins.

I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.

 Melissia wrote:
All you're doing is escalating things, when things need to be deescalated.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

 Melissia wrote:
That's bad game design if I've ever heard it.

Ah! GW's specialty.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Because they aren't going to get nerfed by GW. Also, there's still wolfstar, gravstar, DA shenanigans, etc. There's too much to nerf now.

Therefor, feth those armies that would be hurt the most by this?

That's bad game design if I've ever heard it. All you're doing is escalating things, when things need to be deescalated.

Because if your response to some things being OP is to say "okay, make my stuff OP, too", then you're just gonna make everything OP, and the game will end up as just "roll dice to determine who wins turn one" every time. Might as well not show up and put the effort of putting models down if a coin toss is what'll determine who wins.

If everyone is Eldar good, it's fair.

If this was mentioned earlier in the thread, I apologize for bringing it up now. I wish that the rules actually said that you couldn't assault turn one. I don't actually have a problem with assault from reserves. The problem is that the current rules say that you have to have your models on the field for a turn before assaulting.

Another thing that I wouldn't mind would be if units with Frag\Assault grenades forced rerolls of successful hits with overwatch shots.

I don't have problem with a turn one assault. The issue I have is more of these formations that can assault out of reserve. Usually something we only see in apocalypse games, which is more understandable. In regular game it can be a little much to deal with.