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I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.

Does it matter how large the assaulting unit is?
I'm not sure just how many Storm boys I want in the vulture squad. It caps at 91. I'm close to 45. would 45 make it in?

I've always thought the proscription against first turn assaults is a relic of a bygone era.

In the before time, in the long-long ago, units that consolidated after a combat could consolidate right into another combat if they could reach. Such armies could wipe a whole enemy force out without ever getting shot at, if they could get the 1st turn assault.

I don't think 1st turn assaults are much of an issue anymore; they're a patch to a problem that doesn't exist any longer.

Xenomancers wrote:I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.

Says the person who has the rules in favor of him.

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't have problem with a turn one assault. The issue I have is more of these formations that can assault out of reserve. Usually something we only see in apocalypse games, which is more understandable. In regular game it can be a little much to deal with.

Usually you only see superheavies, D and apocalpyse blasts in apocalypse too, but that's no longer true. They really need to stop merging apocalypse and 40k, but currently we are stuck with apocalypse level shooting but only 40k level assaults.

 warhead01 wrote:

I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.

Does it matter how large the assaulting unit is?
I'm not sure just how many Storm boys I want in the vulture squad. It caps at 91. I'm close to 45. would 45 make it in?

If it's one big unit- it is likely everything close enough to charge would be destroyed. If you had a good charge roll you'd probably be okay.

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are not OP. Here's another smart person who figured it out by doing actual research. Came to the same conclusion as I did. Not only that he devled into two more tournaments info than I did and the data in them continues to back up our theory that Tau are top of the mid tier, but not OP. Not by a long shot. http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

How many times do we have to say it Gamgee? Your argument only applies to ITC rules. We are not talking about ITC rules. I understand that many tournaments use them, but that is not relevant to a discussion about balance in the core rules. Go bitch on the Frontline Gaming forums and let us have a moment's piece.

ITC Tau still stomp the gak out of many codices.

The problem honestly is simple, ranged usually beats melee. So those who have the best ranged, will typically be the best army.

Tactically it makes sense. As you run at me I'll just avoid you and shoot you until you're all dead. Especially when you factor in the super highly advanced technology that'd be available in the 41st century.

But as its a game, there should be some semblance of balance between melee and shooting.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
The problem honestly is simple, ranged usually beats melee. So those who have the best ranged, will typically be the best army.

Tactically it makes sense. As you run at me I'll just avoid you and shoot you until you're all dead. Especially when you factor in the super highly advanced technology that'd be available in the 41st century.

But as its a game, there should be some semblance of balance between melee and shooting.

That's fine, as long as you cost the assault units appropriately.

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"

Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?

Because they aren't going to get nerfed by GW. Also, there's still wolfstar, gravstar, DA shenanigans, etc. There's too much to nerf now.

Therefor, feth those armies that would be hurt the most by this?

That's bad game design if I've ever heard it. All you're doing is escalating things, when things need to be deescalated.

Because if your response to some things being OP is to say "okay, make my stuff OP, too", then you're just gonna make everything OP, and the game will end up as just "roll dice to determine who wins turn one" every time. Might as well not show up and put the effort of putting models down if a coin toss is what'll determine who wins.

If everyone is Eldar good, it's fair.

So is flipping a coin.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
The problem honestly is simple, ranged usually beats melee. So those who have the best ranged, will typically be the best army.

Tactically it makes sense. As you run at me I'll just avoid you and shoot you until you're all dead. Especially when you factor in the super highly advanced technology that'd be available in the 41st century.

But as its a game, there should be some semblance of balance between melee and shooting.

That's fine, as long as you cost the assault units appropriately.

True enough. I'm not saying we have a good system, and many assault units are over-costed and many shooting units are under-costed. I'd love to see it balanced better. My favorite army would get better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making everything OP so no one is honestly seems to be the norm even outside of Warhammer right now. The issue is everyone wants better stuff and new stuff, but you can't get better stuff and new stuff and keep the same scale of game. The game will require more and more and eventually it kills itself off.

The problem is even if they nerf OP armies everyone still wants something newer, bigger, better, and stronger and if they don't get it they'll quit the game because it grows stale. So they'll realease newer, bigger, better, stronger models and armies. It is very difficult for a game like Warhammer to be deescalated because people naturally want more and new, because old eventually gets boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not saying that's a good thing and obviously not everyone feels that way but many do. If they have to play with the same models over and over and over again with nothing new coming they'll get bored. Plus if GW doesn't produce newer models How will they ever get anyone to buy models?

 Nevelon wrote:
You don’t need to tie up the whole army, just the really nasty parts.

And if you have a bunch of units doing this, possibly with multi-assaults, you can tie up a lot of units.

But that’s just taking the concept to the extreme.

I honestly thing a -little- first turn assaults would be good for the game. It would help swing the pendulum from shooting dominance back to a middle ground. What I don’t want is a return of CC blenders bouncing from one assault to another, with no real answer.

Shooting is in theory balanced with range, cover, and LOS. In practice, power creep has made a number of those non-issues. But I blame that mostly on the problem units, and not the system.

YMMV.

Quoted in full. This is the real problem here. Trukk boyz would be a tremendous threat on turn 2 if their trukks didn't blow up (killing almost all of them) on turn 1. Heaven forbid trukk boyz go second, facing TWO full turns of shooting before they do their thing.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but in 5th you COULD assault turn one and assault out of reserves. Guess what dominated the meta? Shooting armies, in a time before allying to maximize combo potential, before overwatch, before interceptor.

Its almost like there's more tools to use against assault now in addition to guns getting stronger and stronger.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I've always thought the proscription against first turn assaults is a relic of a bygone era.

In the before time, in the long-long ago, units that consolidated after a combat could consolidate right into another combat if they could reach. Such armies could wipe a whole enemy force out without ever getting shot at, if they could get the 1st turn assault.

I don't think 1st turn assaults are much of an issue anymore; they're a patch to a problem that doesn't exist any longer.

Consolidiate or not you don't get shot in your opponents turn if you charge. So forget that arqument.

T1 assault is possible, that unit will then spend game locked in h2h short of bad luck.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I've always thought the proscription against first turn assaults is a relic of a bygone era.

In the before time, in the long-long ago, units that consolidated after a combat could consolidate right into another combat if they could reach. Such armies could wipe a whole enemy force out without ever getting shot at, if they could get the 1st turn assault.

I don't think 1st turn assaults are much of an issue anymore; they're a patch to a problem that doesn't exist any longer.

Consolidiate or not you don't get shot in your opponents turn if you charge. So forget that arqument.

T1 assault is possible, that unit will then spend game locked in h2h short of bad luck.

That's completely incorrect.

pm713 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I've always thought the proscription against first turn assaults is a relic of a bygone era.

In the before time, in the long-long ago, units that consolidated after a combat could consolidate right into another combat if they could reach. Such armies could wipe a whole enemy force out without ever getting shot at, if they could get the 1st turn assault.

I don't think 1st turn assaults are much of an issue anymore; they're a patch to a problem that doesn't exist any longer.

Consolidiate or not you don't get shot in your opponents turn if you charge. So forget that arqument.

T1 assault is possible, that unit will then spend game locked in h2h short of bad luck.

That's completely incorrect.

How's so? Last time I checked you cannot shoot into close combat...

Or you do think assaulting player is so INCOMPETENT he cannot stack odds in his favour? You do know he doesn't HAVE to rush into CC with every model. Spend movement phase so that only enough reach combat that you don't get yourself screwed. Any half decent player can do that. Sure rookie players might screw that but seriously it does not that that much skill. Especially since premeasuring is allowed.

You can always roll real high, too.

A good assault unit risks killing their target in one turn, which leaves them sitting ducks and they will more than likely not survive the turn. And even when they do they have to face overwatch, not to mention suffering casualties in the assault itself. And terrain can pull a number on them, unlike shooting.

Hell, I have found the dimensional key to be almost worthwhile JUST for the dangerous terrain bubble. Between forcing gets hot rolls and dangerous terrain I have found that people roll a lot of 1's over the course of a game. And in the case of the key it even deducts charge range.

Another problem with close combat is how static it is.

Units in combat don't really move or maneuver, so if you allow assaults on turn 1, then there would be no reason really ever to shoot unless you were a tank. The army with inferior shooting will always tie up the enemy army so it cannot shoot.

Therefore, no movement aside from pile ins would become the norm, and that's not a game I would like to play.

tneva82 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I've always thought the proscription against first turn assaults is a relic of a bygone era.

In the before time, in the long-long ago, units that consolidated after a combat could consolidate right into another combat if they could reach. Such armies could wipe a whole enemy force out without ever getting shot at, if they could get the 1st turn assault.

I don't think 1st turn assaults are much of an issue anymore; they're a patch to a problem that doesn't exist any longer.

Consolidiate or not you don't get shot in your opponents turn if you charge. So forget that arqument.

T1 assault is possible, that unit will then spend game locked in h2h short of bad luck.

That's completely incorrect.

How's so? Last time I checked you cannot shoot into close combat...

Or you do think assaulting player is so INCOMPETENT he cannot stack odds in his favour? You do know he doesn't HAVE to rush into CC with every model. Spend movement phase so that only enough reach combat that you don't get yourself screwed. Any half decent player can do that. Sure rookie players might screw that but seriously it does not that that much skill. Especially since premeasuring is allowed.

Calm down there.... No need to get yelly.

It's incorrect because saying "T1 assault is possible, that unit will then spend game locked in h2h short of bad luck" is an incredible overstatement. Units like Cultists, Guardians etc will fold like wet paper in assault so the assaulting unit will get out of combat very quickly. If the assaulting unit is strong such as TWC or a Wraithknight then they'll wipe the unit and move on. The only times where units spend the whole game locked in combat is when you have units that lack assault power such as Tactical Marines that fight each other or if you have units made specifically for tarpitting. So the statement is completely wrong.

Weird things happen in melee, too. A single turn of cold die rolls can mean your unit gets swept from a minor amount of damage. I acknowledge this. The trade off with shooting is that shooting is very, very consistent. With the high ROF, high S capabilities in the game now, shooting can generate bewildering amounts of wounds, quickly making many assault lists not viable even if they make it there. Two marines can't beat 30 fire warriors in assault.

Martel732 wrote:
Weird things happen in melee, too. A single turn of cold die rolls can mean your unit gets swept from a minor amount of damage.

Unless you play Space Marines.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Weird things happen in melee, too. A single turn of cold die rolls can mean your unit gets swept from a minor amount of damage.

Unless you play Space Marines.

True, but being a space marine is as much of a detriment as a help if you wanted to shoot the opposing assault unit.

 JimOnMars wrote:
This is the real problem here. Trukk boyz would be a tremendous threat on turn 2 if their trukks didn't blow up (killing almost all of them) on turn 1. Heaven forbid trukk boyz go second, facing TWO full turns of shooting before they do their thing.

This is another reason why I believe we need an I move you move I shoot you shoot, something like they do in Lord of the Rings. Me and my son used LotR rules for a 40K game and oh it was so much fun. Was it perfect? Nope. Then again 40K right now is no where near perfect, but using LotR rules for 40K made it a hell of a better game.

pm713 wrote:Bubble wrap them? I would've thought that would be easy with Guard.

Well remember what some people think. If they sees 3 Wyverns they're quitting the game because you're a TFG cheesemonger.

Wyverns Cheese? Yeah right.... also considered you need 2-3 of them to be effective.... and a niche unit too, they're not going to manage to stop assaulting troops in transports (unless your one of those idiots who suggests footslogging marines), you then have to waste point babysitting them doing nothing else.

Martel732 wrote:

Wyverns are cheap. Most DS infantry isn't. It's unlikely even a full melta drop will kill all of them. And then they lose everything the dropped.

Invisibility makes almost everything good. That's a non argument. If you they casting it on their vindicators, you've won already.

DS infantry can be hella cheap? Free drop pods for anyone? Wyverns are also killed by anything S4 in either shooting or CC... You even have fairly cheap DS units in guards own codex.... never mind nids etc. Like I'm all for helping nids, but as others said you hardly wanna buff every single factions ability to DS charge seeing some, like the guard, would be even worse than they already are.

You don't even need melta's, marines with boltguns can do the job easily enough. If you add bubblewrap to wyverns you're lookimg easily at a 300+ point investment just to keep one of their only slightly competitive units alive.

Honestly its not bad.

The only bad one is Skyhammer Formation, and its only bad b.c it stops Overwatch, THAT is F&^@ing stupid.

EnTyme wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are not OP. Here's another smart person who figured it out by doing actual research. Came to the same conclusion as I did. Not only that he devled into two more tournaments info than I did and the data in them continues to back up our theory that Tau are top of the mid tier, but not OP. Not by a long shot. http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

How many times do we have to say it Gamgee? Your argument only applies to ITC rules. We are not talking about ITC rules. I understand that many tournaments use them, but that is not relevant to a discussion about balance in the core rules. Go bitch on the Frontline Gaming forums and let us have a moment's piece.

It should be noted that while all technically the ITC, the three tournaments mentioned in the analysis all have different rules. The LVO took place before the most recent rules changes were in place. The Midwest Conquest has it's own FAQ, and in several places it departs from the standard ITC FAQ, most notably:

ITC: "Signature Systems, wargear and other special rules that alter the way that a unit fires (e.g., Skyfire) do not apply to other units using the Coordinated Firepower command benefit."

MWC: "Signature Systems, wargear and other special rules that alter the way that a unit fires (e.g. an ability that grants an entire unit Skyfire) do apply to other units using the Coordinated Firepower command benefit."

They're also at different points levels, in different parts of the country, using different army composition rules.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

pm713 wrote:Bubble wrap them? I would've thought that would be easy with Guard.

Well remember what some people think. If they sees 3 Wyverns they're quitting the game because you're a TFG cheesemonger.

Wyverns Cheese? Yeah right.... also considered you need 2-3 of them to be effective.... and a niche unit too, they're not going to manage to stop assaulting troops in transports (unless your one of those idiots who suggests footslogging marines), you then have to waste point babysitting them doing nothing else.

Martel732 wrote:

Wyverns are cheap. Most DS infantry isn't. It's unlikely even a full melta drop will kill all of them. And then they lose everything the dropped.

Invisibility makes almost everything good. That's a non argument. If you they casting it on their vindicators, you've won already.

DS infantry can be hella cheap? Free drop pods for anyone? Wyverns are also killed by anything S4 in either shooting or CC... You even have fairly cheap DS units in guards own codex.... never mind nids etc. Like I'm all for helping nids, but as others said you hardly wanna buff every single factions ability to DS charge seeing some, like the guard, would be even worse than they already are.

You don't even need melta's, marines with boltguns can do the job easily enough. If you add bubblewrap to wyverns you're lookimg easily at a 300+ point investment just to keep one of their only slightly competitive units alive.

You aren't likely to hp out AV 10 with 20 BS 4 bolter shots. Try again. Let them deep strike in and fire boltguns. Boltguns are quite irrelevant in the game now.

I think that actually ties into the problem Martel. S4 AP5 used to be the best standard troop weapon in the game. It wasn't fear inspiring but it was respected, Orks have S4 AP6 Assault 2 Range 18 weapons which are worse in every way to a bolter but again, about fair. The problems then started to crop up when basic troop weapons were able to glance Land Raiders to death, or the power of the shots went up so that those Tau firewarriors are wounding most foes on 3s and a lot of foes on 2s.

That ties directly into Assaulting 1st turn because it shows just how powerful shooting has become over the last couple of editions. Before a blob of 100 boyz in a single unit would have instilled massive fear in almost every single army in the game. Now? I have witnessed an eldar army of 1500pts (a bit less, some units were in reserve still) almost table a 100 boyz in a single shooting phase/assault phase. When a troop choice is allowed to take a S6 4 shot weapon on a BS4 platform that has 3+ armor and jink? seriously? Shooting is the king right now.

Shootas are better than bolters. You can assault after you use them. AP doesn't matter, and it gets more shots from 12"-18".