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 Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:Because that's how it worked in 6th edition codex...?

I'm really not sure what answer you're looking for, here. The 7th ed codex is not the 6th ed codex.

Going to make me pull out my 7th ed codex, huh? Alright, Insaniak:

P. 189, 7th edition codex:

"If your primary detachment has the space marines faction, you can take an allied detachment...with the space marines faction as long as it is drawn from a different chapter than your primary detachment."

Explain that.

As I said: RAI is perfectly obvious.

You've bolded the wrong bit. Here you go:

"If your Primary Detachment has the Space Marines Faction, you can take an Allied Detachment (see Warhammer 40,000: The Rules) with the Space Marines Faction as long as it is drawn from a different Chapter than your Primary Detachment."

Now, which Faction is each detachment?

Hint: Chapter Tactics is not Faction.

Mr. Shine wrote:You've bolded the wrong bit. Here you go:

"If your Primary Detachment has the Space Marines Faction, you can take an Allied Detachment (see Warhammer 40,000: The Rules) with the Space Marines Faction as long as it is drawn from a different Chapter than your Primary Detachment."

Now, which Faction is each detachment?

I'm aware that it says that.

But what I'm asking is this:

If they're simply just "the same faction," then why can't I ally Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists, but I can ally in Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

Because. They're. Different. Factions.

As I said: if you're not trying to break the game, these problems just don't arise.

 Traditio wrote:

Mr. Shine wrote:You've bolded the wrong bit. Here you go:

"If your Primary Detachment has the Space Marines Faction, you can take an Allied Detachment (see Warhammer 40,000: The Rules) with the Space Marines Faction as long as it is drawn from a different Chapter than your Primary Detachment."

Now, which Faction is each detachment?

I'm aware that it says that.

But what I'm asking is this:

If they're simply just "the same faction," then why can't I ally Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists, but I can ally in Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

Because. They're. Different. Factions.

How can they be different Factions if they're explicitly stated as being both of the Space Marines Faction?

You're simply wrong. Dead wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

Having a special allowance to have what is clearly, explicitly stated as two examples of the same Faction being able to take an Allied Detachment alongside a Primary Detachment does not mean they suddenly become different Factions.

 Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:Again, I don't know how many times we have to tell you about RAW vs RAI...

There is no such thing as RAW apart from RAI.

I can and will disagree. I would use a real-world example to help me here, but not only is that against the tenets of this forum, but I also know that you're not going to listen to me. So for the sake of everyone and this thread, let's leave it here (especially considering a RAW vs RAI argument serves no purpose as far as the original post is concerned). Feel free to start a new thread about this if you wish, but I think that as far as this thread is concerned, it should not continue.

 Traditio wrote:

Mr. Shine wrote:You've bolded the wrong bit. Here you go:

"If your Primary Detachment has the Space Marines Faction, you can take an Allied Detachment (see Warhammer 40,000: The Rules) with the Space Marines Faction as long as it is drawn from a different Chapter than your Primary Detachment."

Now, which Faction is each detachment?

I'm aware that it says that.

But what I'm asking is this:

If they're simply just "the same faction," then why can't I ally Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists, but I can ally in Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

Because. They're. Different. Factions.

As I said: if you're not trying to break the game, these problems just don't arise.

They are not different Faction. Period. You don't like this? Start a different thread. This thread has a different topic.


To help get this thread back on the original topic:

I do not think that the treatment that the vehicles taken as part of a detachment that is consider to be under the umbrella of the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics should be extended to other Chapter Tactics. I feel that it's a reasonable (and quite frankly necessary if you ask me) buff for the Iron Hands that doesn't necessarily translate to the Chapter Tactics of other Chapters. There's no call for it in other Chapters.

Mr. Shine wrote:How can they be different Factions if they're explicitly stated as being both of the Space Marines Faction?

You're simply wrong. Dead wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

Having a special allowance to have what is clearly, explicitly stated as two examples of the same Faction being able to take an Allied Detachment alongside a Primary Detachment does not mean they suddenly become different Factions.

They're as much the same faction as Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are.

 Traditio wrote:

Going to make me pull out my 7th ed codex, huh? Alright, Insaniak:

P. 189, 7th edition codex:

"If your primary detachment has the space marines faction, you can take an allied detachment...with the space marines faction as long as it is drawn from a different chapter than your primary detachment."

Explain that..

OK.

Normally, you can't take an Allied Detachment from the same Faction as your Primary Detachment.

Space Marines get a hall pass from that prohibition, on the proviso that the Allied Detachment has different Chapter Tactics to the Primary.


It spells out right there in the rule you quoted that both your Primary and your Allies in that situation are from the Space Marines Faction.

 Traditio wrote:

There is no such thing as RAW apart from RAI. The literal sense of a passage is whatever it is that the author intended to mean by saying or writing it.

This is quite self-apparently false.


The words written on the page can quite often mean something very different to what the writer intended them to mean. Hence the distinction.

Convenience. Would you really feel like listing out all of the different SM chapters (and successor chapters) in the BRB when you could express yourself in a more summary manner in the codex?

Listing out all of the Chapters would be unnecessary. If they had wanted each Chapter to count as a different faction, all it would have taken is a single line stating that each different version of Chapter Tactics counts as a different faction.

They didn't do this. The current rules are quite clear on the fact that all of the Chapters covered in the current Codex Space Marines are the same Faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
But what I'm asking is this:

If they're simply just "the same faction," then why can't I ally Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists, but I can ally in Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?.

Because the rule you quoted says that you can Ally with the same Faction so long as they have different Chapter Tactics.

 Traditio wrote:
They're as much the same faction as Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are.

Which is to say not at all. Because Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are completely different Factions.

Great, I'm glad we're agreed they're different Factions.

Mr. Shine wrote:Which is to say not at all. Because Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are completely different Factions.

Great, I'm glad we're agreed they're different Factions.

According to the rule cited by Crown Axe, they are not. IoM = IoM.

The rules wrote:Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

Basically, don't post in red if you're not a mod. Thanks. Additionally, let's make sure we're staying on topic. Starting to get a bit away from the reason this thread had at the start.

 Traditio wrote:

Mr. Shine wrote:Which is to say not at all. Because Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are completely different Factions.

Great, I'm glad we're agreed they're different Factions.

According to the rule cited by Crown Axe, they are not. IoM = IoM.

I didn't cite any rules

 Traditio wrote:

Mr. Shine wrote:Which is to say not at all. Because Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves are completely different Factions.

Great, I'm glad we're agreed they're different Factions.

According to the rule cited by Crown Axe, they are not. IoM = IoM.

CrownAxe never cited a rule stating Armies of the Imperium is a Faction.

CrownAxe wrote:I didn't cite any rules

Oy vae iz mir...

...

At any rate:

I'm assuming that we all basically agree with respect to this (returning to the subject of the OP):

Imperial Fists rhinos cannot reroll 1s on those stormbolters. RAW (and probably RAI) is perfectly clear on this, no?

@motyak: My apologies. I was simply trying to bring attention to getting back on topic, but I will refrain from posting in red in the future.

@Traditio: Please stop being ridiculous. If you bothered to read the Factions listed on Page 126 of the BRB, you would know that the SoB are a separate Faction in their own right. Just because they are under the umbrella of IoM doesn't mean that SoB and SW are the same Faction. If you can't form a proper argument, please don't make one.

 Traditio wrote:
Oy vae iz mir...

...

He didn't. He simply pointed out that the BRB shorthands a number of Factions' place on the Allies Matrix under the logo/heading 'Imperium of Man'.

That's not to say that Imperium of Man is in itself a Faction, but simply rather all units with Factions included under the Imperium of Man logo/heading interact with units of different Faction in the same way.

At any rate:

I'm assuming that we all basically agree with respect to this (returning to the subject of the OP):

Imperial Fists rhinos cannot reroll 1s on those stormbolters. RAW (and probably RAI) is perfectly clear on this, no?

At a glance, sure.

Mr. Shine wrote:At a glance, sure.

That's basically [/thread] then, no?

Because that's basically what the OP is asking.

"Look, the supplement lets Iron Hands use their 'chapter tactics' for models without chapter tactics. So it applies to all SM models without chapter tactics."

Except. It doesn't. Because the supplement was specifically worded in such a way as to allow it, even though other similar uses would be disallowed.

Is this basically your sentiment?

 Traditio wrote:

Mr. Shine wrote:At a glance, sure.

That's basically [/thread] then, no?

Because that's basically what the OP is asking.

"Look, the supplement lets Iron Hands use their 'chapter tactics' for models without chapter tactics. So it applies to all SM models without chapter tactics."

Except. It doesn't. Because the supplement was specifically worded in such a way as to allow it, even though other similar uses would be disallowed.

Is this basically your sentiment?

No. My "sentiment" is that the FAQ clarified that, with reference to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics (i.e. not referring to Chapter Tactics in general, as well as a specific rebuttal of attempting to apply it to vehicles without the Chapter Tactics special rule in an Ultramarines Detachment not benefiting from Ultramarines Chapter Tactics) it was allowed for vehicles without the Chapter Tactics special rule in Iron Hands Detachments.

EDIT: Further weight to support that specific chapters should not be treated as their own Faction comes from the Angels of Death supplement for the Space Marines codex, where it talks about detachments of each chapter and says, identically for each, "A (Chapter Name) Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment."